"Lightening bolt" spiritual experiences and our behavior.

[Jason]

Which Nephi are we talking about anyway? There are several in the BoM.

[The Nehor]

Which Nephi are we talking about anyway? There are several in the BoM.

Laman's grandson who was named Nephi because he was weak and a runt. He was later killed by a jaguar.

[The Nehor]

I didn't say spiritual experiences, I said spiritual manifestations.

I believe flowers exist. I believe that I'm typing on a computer right now. I believe that neurotheology is a good explanation for spiritual/mystical/numinous experiences. I do not believe that angels that visit people are "real" just because others think they are.

But I've never had a spiritual manifestation that wasn't tied to a spiritual experience. I don't know if the angels that visit other people are real. Just the ones that come to me.

[annewandering]

That pretty much boils it down to the nitty gritty. First you have to decide for yourself if you believe your own angels. Everything else is pretty much external and is based on your own, or your angels' (ie:HolyGhost, evaluations of the veracity of others.

[Olavarria]

I find the "I am not a Mormon, but I wouldn't even become one if this happened" people to be very interesting.

Especially Luigi and Barrel, who would automatically assume they were going crazy. Which makes me wonder, how much proof is enough proof? Is there even such a thing?

For the LDS who said "I am a Mormon and I would forever be a changed into a better Mormon", my questian is: if you have the capacity of being a better mormon, what keeps you from being a better mormon then? Why not be a better mormon without seeing? The stuff isnt any less real.

For the "I am not a Mormon but I would become a Mormon ASAP" people, the thing that keeps them from converting is knowing for sure that Mormonism has the stuff. Such a situation would be no different from having a gun to your head or being shown a safe with a billion dollars, 3 playmates and being told it can all be yours.

Which is a better test(Abraham 3:25) for God to use?

Letting you see the gun/the cash and seeing which one you'll choose?

Or, not letting you see it(allowing you to doubt if its really there) and then seeing which one you'll choose?.

[talisyn]

I find the "I am not a Mormon, but I wouldn't even become one if this happened" people to be very interesting.

Especially Luigi and Barrel, who would automatically assume they were going crazy. Which makes me wonder, how much proof is enough proof?

For the LDS who said "I am a Mormon and I would forever be a changed into a better Mormon", my questian is: if you have the capacity of being a better mormon, what keeps you from being a better mormon then? Why not be a better mormon without seeing? The stuff isnt any less real.

That is an excellent question and I wish I had an excellent answer. I believe miracles are for the benefit of the faithful. If I were to shake the hand of Nephi (any of them, really. Except the one that got eaten by a kitty) or Moroni that would really help me in my dark times. I am a tactile person, I believe what I can feel. Like doubting Thomas (I always thought he got a bad rap), I'd probably be scolded a bit for my lack of faith but I would know! Beyond a shadow of a doubt! Some things I do know, like I know the BoM is inspired by God and created for a purpose, I know President Monson is a prophet. I know God loves me and wants me to return to Him not necessarily with honor (though that would be nice) but with my knowing I did the best I could with what I had. Some things I do not know, like why I have only one child yet the methheads down the block have three, why polygamy was a good idea in Old Testament times, and why was my family not in Hawaii when I was born. The memory of the feel of Moroni's hand would help me....and besides it would just be cool!

[Olavarria]

That is an excellent question and I wish I had an excellent answer. I believe miracles are for the benefit of the faithful. If I were to shake the hand of Nephi (any of them, really. Except the one that got eaten by a kitty) or Moroni that would really help me in my dark times. I am a tactile person, I believe what I can feel. Like doubting Thomas (I always thought he got a bad rap), I'd probably be scolded a bit for my lack of faith but I would know! Beyond a shadow of a doubt! Some things I do know, like I know the BoM is inspired by God and created for a purpose, I know President Monson is a prophet. I know God loves me and wants me to return to Him not necessarily with honor (though that would be nice) but with my knowing I did the best I could with what I had. Some things I do not know, like why I have only one child yet the methheads down the block have three, why polygamy was a good idea in Old Testament times, and why was my family not in Hawaii when I was born. The memory of the feel of Moroni's hand would help me....and besides it would just be cool!

I get what you mean. I chose "revert to my old ways", cuz Laman and Lemuel.

Everyone is different though.

[Luigi]

I find the "I am not a Mormon, but I wouldn't even become one if this happened" people to be very interesting.

Especially Luigi and Barrel, who would automatically assume they were going crazy. Which makes me wonder, how much proof is enough proof? Is there even such a thing?

For the LDS who said "I am a Mormon and I would forever be a changed into a better Mormon", my questian is: if you have the capacity of being a better mormon, what keeps you from being a better mormon then? Why not be a better mormon without seeing? The stuff isnt any less real.

For the "I am not a Mormon but I would become a Mormon ASAP" people, the thing that keeps them from converting is knowing for sure that Mormonism has the stuff. Such a situation would be no different from having a gun to your head or being shown a safe with a billion dollars, 3 playmates and being told it can all be yours.

Which is a better test(Abraham 3:25) for God to use?

Letting you see the gun/the cash and seeing which one you'll choose?

Or, not letting you see it(allowing you to doubt if its really there) and then seeing which one you'll choose?.

Your whole point here seems to be that faith is a virtue. Why? Why is believing something that doesn't have concrete evidence to back it virtuous or even desirable?

[Olavarria]

Your whole point here seems to be that faith is a virtue. Why? Why is believing something that doesn't have concrete evidence to back it virtuous or even desirable?

No, not making any points. Just wondering on the "whys" of how 3 different people can react 3 different ways to the same objective experience, and how those experiences, or lack of, effect us.

[jadams_4242]

Its the end of the day and you are off to bed. After you finish brushing your teeth and are re-entering your bedroom, you see the Angel Moroni hovering 3 feet of the ground looking right at you. At first your scared, but you then are immediatly filled with peace. You remember something you read in the D&C about true vs ministrations or something and you walk right up to him and offer to shake his hand. You both shake hands and you feel that his hand is as warm and material as yours. The two of you talk for 8 hours!! When he leaves, you go to sleep and wake up at 12pm the next day. You decide to skip/work school, still blown away by what just happend. After your morning shower, you get dressed and who is waiting for you in the living room? Nephi. You shake his hand and have a chat lasting 6 hours. Would this type of experience change your behavior and way of thinking?

I voted for #2.

Depends on what they spoke to me about for 14 hours.

[annewandering]

Most usually it's about repentance isn't it? Unless the angel happens to be your grandma and then she will want to know how everyone is doing and who is expecting the next baby and all the latest gossip. On the other hand if it is your grandpa he may want to know the latest BYU scores. So be sure to keep up on them.

[Tarski]

Its the end of the day and you are off to bed. After you finish brushing your teeth and are re-entering your bedroom, you see the Angel Moroni hovering 3 feet of the ground looking right at you.

I would assume that I was hallucinating or more likely dreaming.

At first your scared, but you then are immediatly filled with peace.

I would enjoy the peace (and wake up later)

You remember something you read in the D&C about true vs ministrations or something and you walk right up to him and offer to shake his hand. You both shake hands and you feel that his hand is as warm and material as yours.

I haven't noticed that handshakes in dreams or hallucinations are cold. What a silly test!

Would this type of experience change your behavior and way of thinking?

I would considered it real if other people witnessed it and interacted with the being in a repeatable way that left strong physical evidence.

After determining if it were real I would set about deciding how to tell if the being was who he claimed (I would consider it unlikely). I would see no reason to assume this being was supernatural and would guess that the being was just a human with some tricks or technology I was unaware of. Maybe my brother would be playing a joke on me---a little lighting, good acting, and an unsuspected dose of 3-methoxy-4,5-methylenedioxyamphetamine and/or Lysergic acid to set the mood.

Supernatural would be my very last guess.

Also, this will never happen. It's a fantasy. So what is the point?

What if you really really met santa at the North Pole and shook his hand?? No, seriously, I would like an answer.