"Lightening bolt" spiritual experiences and our behavior.

[Olavarria]

Its the end of the day and you are off to bed. After you finish brushing your teeth and are re-entering your bedroom, you see the Angel Moroni hovering 3 feet of the ground looking right at you. At first your scared, but you then are immediatly filled with peace. You remember something you read in the D&C about true vs ministrations or something and you walk right up to him and offer to shake his hand. You both shake hands and you feel that his hand is as warm and material as yours. The two of you talk for 8 hours!! When he leaves, you go to sleep and wake up at 12pm the next day. You decide to skip/work school, still blown away by what just happend. After your morning shower, you get dressed and who is waiting for you in the living room? Nephi. You shake his hand and have a chat lasting 6 hours. Would this type of experience change your behavior and way of thinking?

I voted for #2.

[Mudcat]

I voted for the GO MO ASAP, choice.

There is a contingency though. I would first have to say...In a very powerful, faith-filled and authoritive voice. "If you are not a messenger sent by the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to leave."

If they were still hanging around after that. Then I would be open to their words. If Moroni, were open to requests, I'd ask if he would let me run the tub and baptize me.

I'd do the same thing to Nephi, as well.

[annewandering]

It has been shown over and over that miracles do not make faith. Remember Laman and Lemuel. It is almost impossible to see how that could happen but it does.

For myself I would hope for the change in me but knowing I am human it would no doubt be two.

I think that miracles do give us a spiritual awareness that is most likely to prod us to work on our lives and use as a catalyst to improving our testimonies but alone they are external not internal 'proofs'.

[The Nehor]

If my own life is any guide these kind of spiritual experiences change the way you live for about a week....if it's a good week.

If you stay faithful though it becomes a treasured memory and a source of faith. If you don't it becomes an obnoxious situation to be explained away as best as possible.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

Its the end of the day and you are off to bed. After you finish brushing your teeth and are re-entering your bedroom, you see the Angel Moroni hovering 3 feet of the ground looking right at you. At first your scared, but you then are immediatly filled with peace. You remember something you read in the D&C about true vs ministrations or something and you walk right up to him and offer to shake his hand. You both shake hands and you feel that his hand is as warm and material as yours. The two of you talk for 8 hours!! When he leaves, you go to sleep and wake up at 12pm the next day. You decide to skip/work school, still blown away by what just happend. After your morning shower, you get dressed and who is waiting for you in the living room? Nephi. You shake his hand and have a chat lasting 6 hours. Would this type of experience change your behavior and way of thinking?

I voted for #2.

I'd go see a mental health professional.

[Luigi]

Its the end of the day and you are off to bed. After you finish brushing your teeth and are re-entering your bedroom, you see the Angel Moroni hovering 3 feet of the ground looking right at you.

I would probably call my doctor the next day and request a CAT scan.

[annewandering]

I would probably call my doctor the next day and request a CAT scan.

So do you think that spiritual manifestations, etc are symptoms of brain disorders?

[The Nehor]

I would probably call my doctor the next day and request a CAT scan.

The Voices tell me not to do that.

[Luigi]

So do you think that spiritual manifestations, etc are symptoms of brain disorders?

I am simply saying you should be skeptical of anything you think you see for which the evidence is poor or non-existence. Given the current status of evidence for angels if I saw one I would think the chance that I had a brain disorder distorting my perceptions to be much greater than me actually seeing an angel. But I imagine there are several phenomenon about which you feel similarly. If you saw a man in a sled with reindeer flying across the sky wouldn't you think you were seeing either a manmade hoax or that your mind was playing tricks on you?

[Luigi]

I'd go see a mental health professional.

Hey, beat me to the punch

[The Nehor]

I am simply saying you should be skeptical of anything you think you see for which the evidence is poor or non-existence. Given the current status of evidence for angels if I saw one I would think the chance that I had a brain disorder distorting my perceptions to be much greater than me actually seeing an angel. But I imagine there are several phenomenon about which you feel similarly. If you saw a man in a sled with reindeer flying across the sky wouldn't you think you were seeing either a manmade hoax or that your mind was playing tricks on you?

That would be SANTA!!!!! Sheesh, didn't you learn anything in school?

[annewandering]

If I saw a Santa on a sleigh I would assume I was at Bedke Feedlots in Oakley and enjoy the Christmas lights.

There are few who actually believe there is a real santa but there are angels.

[Luigi]

If I saw a Santa on a sleigh I would assume I was at Bedke Feedlots in Oakley and enjoy the Christmas lights.

There are few who actually believe there is a real santa but there are angels.

Yes, but the point is that their reasons for believing in angels are vastly different than most of the other things whose existence they believe in as well. And when it boils down to it their reasons for believing in angels are not very good. In fact, most people, even if they are religious, view modern accounts of angels from others with considerable skepticism for this very reason.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

So do you think that spiritual manifestations, etc are symptoms of brain disorders?

I think anytime you see things, or hear things, that other people can not see (that lasts for hours???) that should be of concern.

Here's what Dennett has to say about hallucinations:

http://konyv.uw.hu/consciousness_explained.htm

IIRC Dennett even believes it's possible that the resurrection of Jesus can be explained by hallucination.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

If I saw a Santa on a sleigh I would assume I was at Bedke Feedlots in Oakley and enjoy the Christmas lights.

There are few who actually believe there is a real santa but there are angels.

I'd wager more people believe in Santa than believe in the angel Moroni. So, should I believe in Santa because of the number of devotees?

[The Nehor]

IIRC Dennett even believes it's possible that the resurrection of Jesus can be explained by hallucination.

11 people simultaneously?

I think we have to accept that reality itself is quite probably an illusion. The odds of this existence happening to me are astronomically low. Based on this new information, I plan to quit my job and not finish Christmas shopping.

[annewandering]

I asked Santa and he said he believes more in Moroni. What can I say if he is an advocate of Moroni over his own self?

And seriously if you think more adults believe in santa I am going to have to question 1. Where do you work? Preschool opinions do not count on questions of Moroni's validity 2. Where do you live? Ok I am sure you get to go home for holidays but I mean on a regular basis?

[The Nehor]

I'd wager more people believe in Santa than believe in the angel Moroni. So, should I believe in Santa because of the number of devotees?

Yes, and Vishnu and Brahma and Zeus and Kali and Yahweh and Allah and good government.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

I asked Santa and he said he believes more in Moroni. What can I say if he is an advocate of Moroni over his own self?

And seriously if you think more adults believe in santa I am going to have to question 1. Where do you work? Preschool opinions do not count on questions of Moroni's validity 2. Where do you live? Ok I am sure you get to go home for holidays but I mean on a regular basis?

I didn't mention adults. Can we not count children? If so, then you need to strike quite a few from the Moroni belief, as well.

Obviously just because a large portion of people believe something does not in turn make it something that one should believe in without skepticism. You believe in the angel Mormoni because of your religious cultural experience.

[annewandering]

Moroni is real. Him being real has nothing to do with me believing it or not.

You are to the point of me asking you for stats on the adults who believe in santa and who believes Moroni.

I very much doubt many adults do believe in santa and I am positive many adults believe Moroni.

In case it went over your head I was talking about my husband, who is our family santa, for his opinion.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

Moroni is real. Him being real has nothing to do with me believing it or not.

How do you know Moroni is real?

You are to the point of me asking you for stats on the adults who believe in santa and who believes Moroni.

I very much doubt many adults do believe in santa and I am positive many adults believe Moroni.

Once again, I said I wasn't merely referring to adults. I said "people" that believe in Santa outnumber those that believe in Moroni. Yet, you surely don't dispute that children in the LDS Church are taught to believe that Moroni is real? My only point was that to take the number of devotees to any religion, or belief, and to use the stats as pointing to reliability of belief is flawed. For instance more people have believed in Amaterasu in the last few thousands of years (Shinto goddess) than in Moroni, so, should I believe in Amaterasu?

In case it went over your head I was talking about my husband, who is our family santa, for his opinion.

I was just ignoring your comment about talking to Santa Clause as I didn't see the relevance.

[The Nehor]

Virtually everyone believes in Love. Should I believe in it just because so many do?

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

Virtually everyone believes in Love. Should I believe in it just because so many do?

Love is a poetic term that means different things to different people. Some believe in God's love. I don't. I believe in chemical reactions that make people go nutters, empathy as deriving from our mirror neurons, evolutionary tendencies for reciprocal altruism, etc... So, do you believe in the same sort of "love" I do, Nehor?

Are you comparing something that can be referred to as chemically occurring in our bodies, or a poetic term of affection, to seeing spiritual manifestations of entities? Seems a bit different, doesn't it?

[The Nehor]

Love is a poetic term that means different things to different people. Some believe in God's love. I don't. I believe in chemical reactions that make people go nutters, empathy as deriving from our mirror neurons, evolutionary tendencies for reciprocal altruism, etc... So, do you believe in the same sort of "love" I do, Nehor?

Are you comparing something that can be referred to as chemically occurring in our bodies, or a poetic term of affection, to seeing spiritual manifestations of entities? Seems a bit different, doesn't it?

No, spiritual experiences are something that cause chemical changes in my body and involve affection in the poetic sense.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

No, spiritual experiences are something that cause chemical changes in my body and involve affection in the poetic sense.

I didn't say spiritual experiences, I said spiritual manifestations.

I believe flowers exist. I believe that I'm typing on a computer right now. I believe that neurotheology is a good explanation for spiritual/mystical/numinous experiences. I do not believe that angels that visit people are "real" just because others think they are.