Another Book Of Mormon Evidence

[Sargon]

Here is a bit of data that may or may not be evidence for the Book of Mormon. I am not qualified to say, having no training in Mesoamerican studies. Therefore, I introduce the subject hoping that Brant or Mark or someone else will illuminate us.

Diane Wirth in her "Decoding Ancient America" discusses an ancient Mesoamerican myth which describes the origin of 7 tribes that came forth out of 7 caves. These caves are said to represent "ships." Kerry Shirts presents Wirth's discussion in his

.

The Book of Mormon seems to indicate a similar history of 7 tribes emerging from ships.

Jacob 1:13

13 Now the people which were not Lamanites were Nephites; nevertheless, they were called Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites, Zoramites, Lamanites, Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites.

800 years later...

Mormon 1:8

8 And it came to pass in this year there began to be a war between the Nephites, who consisted of the Nephites and the Jacobites and the Josephites and the Zoramites; and this war was between the Nephites, and the Lamanites and the Lemuelites and the Ishmaelites.

In both accounts there are 7 major tribes whom the people identified themselves with. The details of the accounts surely do not match in every respect, but there does seem to be broad agreeements.

Is there something to this? Is the timing of this myth right? Is it real evidence, or more wishful thinking on the part of a LDS researcher?

A simple internet search revealed this source on the subject, with a few illustrations: http://books.google.com/books?id=ooTup42hE...+caves#PPA30,M1

So, what do we make of this?

Thanks.

James

[Brant Gardner]

Here is a bit of data that may or may not be evidence for the Book of Mormon. I am not qualified to say, having no training in Mesoamerican studies. Therefore, I introduce the subject hoping that Brant or Mark or someone else will illuminate us.

Diane Wirth in her "Decoding Ancient America" discusses an ancient Mesoamerican myth which describes the origin of 7 tribes that came forth out of 7 caves. These caves are said to represent "ships." Kerry Shirts presents Wirth's discussion in his

.

The Book of Mormon seems to indicate a similar history of 7 tribes emerging from ships.

This one is a big stretch. In the first place, why 7? The Book of Mormon recognizes that there were tribes, but really doesn't emphasize anything but the two great divisions. Why would the recollection of the individual tribes be important to the Nephites, or the Nephite tribes to the Lamanites (who are crediting with destroying the Nephites--not a high recommendation for a fond remembrance).

Next, the particular myth is Aztec and pretty clearly related to their homeland, in the American Southwest. The picture Wirth uses shows saguaro cacti, which are only located in the Sonoran desert and Arizona.

Lastly, it is caves, not ships. I cannot find any reference in Spanish or Aztec literature that mentions ships with this tale. The only place I see it is in people quoting Hunter and Ferguson and their translation of an introduction to Sahagun. That statement isn't in Sahagun's introduction.

Native Americans in the American southwest have an origin tale that has them coming from the earth. Teotihuacan has a seven-lobed cave under it. I think that this particular myth combines a Southwestern origin myth with Mesoamerican content (Mesoamerican origin myths do not have people coming up from under ground). No ships are involved.

[Sargon]

Darn.

Thanks Brant!

Sincerely,

James

[BCSpace]

I think Brant's "one big stretch" is quite a stretch in and of itself. Details can change over time (caves/ships), but the notion of seven tribes remains the same and the BoM goes out of it's way (twice) to point out that besides the basic division, there are seven sub-divisions. Obviously far from proof, but Brant seems far too quick to dismiss.

[Brant Gardner]

I think Brant's "one big stretch" is quite a stretch in and of itself. Details can change over time (caves/ships), but the notion of seven tribes remains the same and the BoM goes out of it's way (twice) to point out that besides the basic division, there are seven sub-divisions. Obviously far from proof, but Brant seems far too quick to dismiss.

You might not agree with me, but I can assure you that I wasn't quick to dismiss the evidence. My dismissal is the result of a lot of reading in the relevant lore and in folklore and anthropology.

Let's be clear on what the trajectory has to be for this to work:

1) The Nephite recognition of 7 tribes must survive the destruction of the Nephites, enter into Nephite lore and then survive over 700 years and a minimum of two linguistic groups (where nothing else survived save the number 7).

2) Somehow, a connection must be made between caves and ships. This never happens in the native lore and I cannot find it in Spanish documents. The only place there is a connection is in a questionable translation in Hunter and Ferguson which is replicated by other LDS authors without examination of the underlying text. I have looked for it, and cannot find it in Sahagun where they say it exists. Based on my understanding of the literature, there was never a connection between the caves and the ships outside of LDS literature.

3) Somehow, the 7 tribes from Nephite lore have to make their legendary way to the Southwestern US where they influence the creation myth of the Aztecs (which is similar to other Southwestern peoples, but differs from Mesoamerican creation myths) in such a way that the main idea of arriving from under the earth is altered only by the addition of a particular number of tribes. This means that the idea of 7 tribes had to move through an unrelated creation myth before finding the Aztecs a very long way away in both distance and time.

I can't see any of those happening in any feasible way. It is a big stretch because any single one of the connections defies the known ways information travels. To meet all three is beyond a stretch.

[e=mc2]

You might not agree with me, but I can assure you that I wasn't quick to dismiss the evidence. My dismissal is the result of a lot of reading in the relevant lore and in folklore and anthropology.

Let's be clear on what the trajectory has to be for this to work:

1) The Nephite recognition of 7 tribes must survive the destruction of the Nephites, enter into Nephite lore and then survive over 700 years and a minimum of two linguistic groups (where nothing else survived save the number 7).

2) Somehow, a connection must be made between caves and ships. This never happens in the native lore and I cannot find it in Spanish documents. The only place there is a connection is in a questionable translation in Hunter and Ferguson which is replicated by other LDS authors without examination of the underlying text. I have looked for it, and cannot find it in Sahagun where they say it exists. Based on my understanding of the literature, there was never a connection between the caves and the ships outside of LDS literature.

3) Somehow, the 7 tribes from Nephite lore have to make their legendary way to the Southwestern US where they influence the creation myth of the Aztecs (which is similar to other Southwestern peoples, but differs from Mesoamerican creation myths) in such a way that the main idea of arriving from under the earth is altered only by the addition of a particular number of tribes. This means that the idea of 7 tribes had to move through an unrelated creation myth before finding the Aztecs a very long way away in both distance and time.

I can't see any of those happening in any feasible way. It is a big stretch because any single one of the connections defies the known ways information travels. To meet all three is beyond a stretch.

Aw man........ you mean I now probably ought to take down the vid, and thus lessen my magnificent number of 602 videos down to a paltry 601?

[Zakuska]

If I recall correctly the caves are described as 'WATERY" (think abyss). I always thought it had more in common with the Jaradite tale. Seven ships and an 8th holding supplies.

http://www.worldmuseumofman.org/aztec1.htm

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

At first I was thinking Jarodites too. I didn't know if they seperated themselves after their journey... but If I recall correctly, didn't some of the Jarodite ships reportedly sail away and never returned (as though they, hopefully, reached an isles of the sea, or other remote area and stayed)?