Mark Beesley Posted September 5, 2008 Posted September 5, 2008 While authorship of Hebrews in the New Testament is generally ascribed to Paul, the book itself does not tell us who wrote it. There are inconsistencies between the style and content of Hebrews, and other writings of Paul. I don't think we can be certain who wrote Hebrews. Which leads to an interesting question, for me at least: If we don't know who wrote the book, how can we be certain that it belongs in the Bible? How can we know that the author was inspired? Certainly not by the content of the book alone. Independent sources would have testify of its divine origin. The only source I can think of would be the Holy Spirit. But according to some fringe elements of the evangelical movement, the Holy Spirit does not testify about the truthfulness of books. So, how do they justify faith in the words of a book that they don't know who wrote, and about which they cannot receive a divine witness?
Jason Posted September 5, 2008 Posted September 5, 2008 Your criticism could apply to any of the books in the Bible, even the ones who do self-identify their author. Why pick at Hebrews in particular?
jwhitlock Posted September 5, 2008 Posted September 5, 2008 Interesting question. If you can't attribute authorship with any certainty, how can one be certain the book is valid as scripture?LDS, who claim prophetic insight, have one way of validating scripture. It will be interesting to see the responses from those who don't claim prophetic insight.
Mark Beesley Posted September 5, 2008 Author Posted September 5, 2008 Your criticism could apply to any of the books in the Bible, even the ones who do self-identify their author. Why pick at Hebrews in particular?Because knowing the authors of other books provides at least a starting point. For example, we know from sources independent of the letters written by Peter that Peter was an apostle. We have no such starting point for Hebrews. That's why.
saemo Posted September 5, 2008 Posted September 5, 2008 While authorship of Hebrews in the New Testament is generally ascribed to Paul, the book itself does not tell us who wrote it. There are inconsistencies between the style and content of Hebrews, and other writings of Paul. I don't think we can be certain who wrote Hebrews. Which leads to an interesting question, for me at least: If we don't know who wrote the book, how can we be certain that it belongs in the Bible? How can we know that the author was inspired? Certainly not by the content of the book alone. Independent sources would have testify of its divine origin. The only source I can think of would be the Holy Spirit. But according to some fringe elements of the evangelical movement, the Holy Spirit does not testify about the truthfulness of books. So, how do they justify faith in the words of a book that they don't know who wrote, and about which they cannot receive a divine witness?From the introduction to Hebrews, in the New American Bible:"As early as the second century, this treatise, which is of great rhetorical power and force in its admonition to faithful pilgrimage under Christ's leadership, bore the title "To the Hebrews." It was assumed to be directed to Jewish Christians. Usually Hebrews was attached in Greek manuscripts to the collection of letters by Paul. Although no author is mentioned (for there is no address), a reference to Timothy (Hebrews 13:23) suggested connections to the circle of Paul and his assistants. Yet the exact audience, the author, and even whether Hebrews is a letter have long been disputed.As early as the end of the second century, the church of Alexandria in Egypt accepted Hebrews as a letter of Paul, and that became the view commonly held in the East. Pauline authorship was contested in the West into the fourth century, but then accepted. In the sixteenth century, doubts about that position were again raised, and the modern consensus is that the letter was not written by Paul. There is, however, no widespread agreement on any of the other suggested authors, e.g., Barnabas, Apollos, or Prisc(ill)a and Aquila. The document itself has no statement about its author. Among the reasons why Pauline authorship has been abandoned are the great difference of vocabulary and style between Hebrews and Paul's letters, the alternation of doctrinal teaching with moral exhortation, the different manner of citing the Old Testament, and the resemblance between the thought of Hebrews and that of Alexandrian Judaism. The Greek of the letter is in many ways the best in the New Testament. Since the letter of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians, written about A.D. 96, most probably cites Hebrews, the upper limit for the date of composition is reasonably certain. While the letter's references in the present tense to the Old Testament sacrificial worship do not necessarily show that temple worship was still going on, many older commentators and a growing number of recent ones favor the view that it was and that the author wrote before the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. In that case, the argument of the letter is more easily explained as directed toward Jewish Christians rather than those of Gentile origin, and the persecutions they have suffered in the past (cf Hebrews 10:32-34) may have been connected with the disturbances that preceded the expulsion of the Jews from Rome in A.D. 49 under the emperor Claudius. These were probably caused by disputes between Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah and those who did not."
saemo Posted September 5, 2008 Posted September 5, 2008 A question...we don't know who the specific authors of the Pentateuch are...do you have the same issue with authorship here?
The Prodigal Son Posted September 5, 2008 Posted September 5, 2008 Hebrews? Who cares? Why the crap are the Songs of Solomon in there?
soren Posted September 6, 2008 Posted September 6, 2008 While authorship of Hebrews in the New Testament is generally ascribed to Paul, the book itself does not tell us who wrote it. There are inconsistencies between the style and content of Hebrews, and other writings of Paul. I don't think we can be certain who wrote Hebrews. Which leads to an interesting question, for me at least: If we don't know who wrote the book, how can we be certain that it belongs in the Bible? How can we know that the author was inspired? Certainly not by the content of the book alone. Independent sources would have testify of its divine origin. The only source I can think of would be the Holy Spirit. But according to some fringe elements of the evangelical movement, the Holy Spirit does not testify about the truthfulness of books. So, how do they justify faith in the words of a book that they don't know who wrote, and about which they cannot receive a divine witness?I justify it because it s traditionally accepted by the Catholic Church, which draws on Sacred tradition to establish its doctrines, including the Canon of Scripture.I belong to a radical fringe group who think it really was written by Paul, though he was possibly not the sole author. The Greek style of the text is clearly different from his other letters, but no more different than King Lear is different from a A Midsummer Night's Dream.Of the many arguments against Pauline authorship, one of the most common is that the letter has no personal salutation or conclusion in which Paul identifies himself as he does in other letters. My explanation for this is that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and by writing a letter to Hebrew readers he is moving into another apostle's turf. To avoid encroachment, he assumes a modest anonymity.
LDSMusic483 Posted September 6, 2008 Posted September 6, 2008 Hebrews? Who cares? Why the crap are the Songs of Solomon in there? erm...uh....to show you how to be grateful for your wife?
jadams_4242 Posted September 6, 2008 Posted September 6, 2008 While authorship of Hebrews in the New Testament is generally ascribed to Paul, the book itself does not tell us who wrote it. There are inconsistencies between the style and content of Hebrews, and other writings of Paul. I don't think we can be certain who wrote Hebrews. Which leads to an interesting question, for me at least: If we don't know who wrote the book, how can we be certain that it belongs in the Bible? How can we know that the author was inspired? Certainly not by the content of the book alone. Independent sources would have testify of its divine origin. The only source I can think of would be the Holy Spirit. But according to some fringe elements of the evangelical movement, the Holy Spirit does not testify about the truthfulness of books. So, how do they justify faith in the words of a book that they don't know who wrote, and about which they cannot receive a divine witness? I know it to be very holy writ for the very powerfull and simple issue of the Holy preisthood and all it speaks in refferance of about it. {preisthood}, because of latter day revealation and absolute confirmations, i "know" the preisthood to be not only true but nessacery for the plan of salvation and happiness.
Ron Beron Posted September 6, 2008 Posted September 6, 2008 Hebrews? Who cares? Why the crap are the Songs of Solomon in there? Aside from the more obvious erotic nature of the SofS it has been suggested, and I agree, that the book is a Divine Marriage/Kingship ritual that was ubiquitous in ancient times. Usually, it is written to suggest a kings relationship to the Divine Feminine aka Asherah or Inanna. In this case Solomon is trying to establish his "divine" credentials.ORSomeone got bored some day and decided to play a joke on all of us.
LDSMusic483 Posted September 6, 2008 Posted September 6, 2008 Aside from the more obvious erotic nature of the SofS it has been suggested, and I agree, that the book is a Divine Marriage/Kingship ritual that was ubiquitous in ancient times. Usually, it is written to suggest a kings relationship to the Divine Feminine aka Asherah or Inanna. In this case Solomon is trying to establish his "divine" credentials.ORSomeone got bored some day and decided to play a joke on all of us.I think Joseph Smith would subscribe to the latter. He said that the SofS was the only book in the bible that wasn't certified.
Ron Beron Posted September 6, 2008 Posted September 6, 2008 While authorship of Hebrews in the New Testament is generally ascribed to Paul, the book itself does not tell us who wrote it. There are inconsistencies between the style and content of Hebrews, and other writings of Paul. I don't think we can be certain who wrote Hebrews. Which leads to an interesting question, for me at least: If we don't know who wrote the book, how can we be certain that it belongs in the Bible? How can we know that the author was inspired? Certainly not by the content of the book alone. Independent sources would have testify of its divine origin. The only source I can think of would be the Holy Spirit. But according to some fringe elements of the evangelical movement, the Holy Spirit does not testify about the truthfulness of books. So, how do they justify faith in the words of a book that they don't know who wrote, and about which they cannot receive a divine witness?You are right. The authorship is under some question. While a reference is made 'our brother Timothy' in 13:23 which seems to include authorship by Paul there are differences in theology and style that is more consistent with actual Pauline epistles.Tertullian in the 2nd century attributed the volume to Baranbas and later Clement of Alexandria suggested it was dictated by Paul to a scribe. However, your larger question of the truthfulness of any scripture is at greater contention here. The truth is simply we cannot be sure of any divine authorship of any scripture only the divine inspiration. Similarly, we cannot with any assurance of apostolic authorship of any of the epistles or gospels outside a select few. What has established this has authoritative is the cumulative assurance of time and tradition. I am not so sure this is sufficient. I am more inclined to accept more modern scripture over older because we know who wrote such books as the D&C while the authorship of the Pentatuch is definitely in question. We can be assured of the inspiration of these works as long as the spirit has testified to us the truthfulness of it.
Anijen Posted September 6, 2008 Posted September 6, 2008 Gotquestions.org or click here writes this about it, some good points to ponder;The book of Hebrews quotes extensively from the Old Testament. Paul, as a Pharisee, would have been familiar with the Scripture in its original Hebrew language. In other letters, Paul either quotes the Masoretic Text (the original Hebrew) or paraphrases it. However, all of the quotes in this epistle are taken out of the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament), which is inconsistent with Paul's usage. Finally, Paul was an apostle who claimed to receive his revelations directly from the Lord Jesus (1 Corinthians 11:23; Galatians 1:12). The writer of Hebrews specifically says that he was taught by an apostle (Hebrews 2:3).Edited to add; this web link is pretty lame on LDS but as far as the Hebrews question it was interesting.
Tanyan Posted September 6, 2008 Posted September 6, 2008 While authorship of Hebrews in the New Testament is generally ascribed to Paul, the book itself does not tell us who wrote it. There are inconsistencies between the style and content of Hebrews, and other writings of Paul. I don't think we can be certain who wrote Hebrews. Which leads to an interesting question, for me at least: If we don't know who wrote the book, how can we be certain that it belongs in the Bible? How can we know that the author was inspired? Certainly not by the content of the book alone. Independent sources would have testify of its divine origin. The only source I can think of would be the Holy Spirit. But according to some fringe elements of the evangelical movement, the Holy Spirit does not testify about the truthfulness of books. So, how do they justify faith in the words of a book that they don't know who wrote, and about which they cannot receive a divine witness? Didn't Joseph Smith state thate Paul wrote it ?.
saemo Posted September 6, 2008 Posted September 6, 2008 Paul either quotes the Masoretic Text (the original Hebrew) or paraphrases it.Romans 2:6Romans 11:34Romans 15:102 Corinthians 6:3are citations of the Septuagint.
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