The Appeal Of Atheism?

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

Do you think that someone who is basically good deep down can never be evil?

I think good people can make poor choices.

I wasn't arguing that God keeps me honest. I was arguing that atheism is ultimately bleak in its outlook, and that someone who pursues it to its logical conclusion, and believes that everything they do eventually will be nothing might adopt a somewhat despairing attitude that allows the sort of things that Dahmer did.

How precisely is atheism bleak in its outlook? What precisely is the outlook of atheism? There's no afterlife? Is that the bleak aspect? What is the logical conclusion of atheism? I see this repeated and apparently I've not followed atheism to its logical conclusion because I do not feel miserable, or have a bleak outlook on life.

It seems that when theists think in terms of life they look forward to an afterlife and eternity for anything meaningful, yet, I do not subscribe to that. Why is it supposed that I live my life with the fear of death, despair, and destruction? I don't.

How I think about life and the future: Life is glorious now for me and not so much for many others. I am compelled to help others find the tools they need in this life to seek their own joys (simple necessities such as food, water, education, medicine). I assume life will live on after I am gone. I prepare the world for those that come after me.

If I were to know that the end of mankind was imminent would I despair that there was nothing after? No. I wouldn't. First off because I've never believed in an afterlife and it's not how I think, yet, also because I know that the moments we do have can be beauteous in the now.

Would it be lovely if there was a heaven? Of course! For all those short lived lives that die in poverty and suffering to be welcomed into a comfy cloud nursery in the sky is such a pleasant thought. Yet, I don't believe that. I don't see it as bleak, though. It's just reality. That reality compels me to act now to help others! Is it bleak not to believe in fantasy? Why not see the world as it? That there is ugliness does not make me tune out the glorious.

Why does lack of belief in an afterlife equal bleakness?

[J.S. Mill]

Jeffrey Dahmer realized the truth behind atheism - if we (individually and collectively) will be nothing in the space of a few years, then nothing we do now ultimately matters

Ultimately matters to us, or ultimately matters in some sort of extra-human sense? In the first sense your assertion is false; in the second it's a little perverse, because we're ceding the meaning of our lives to some other being. "What matters?" is a tricky question here, because it's necessarily a personal one. It's a question of values, which no being (not even an omnipotent one) could be properly said to force onto someone else by any kind of threat. If people have no values without God, then people in fact have no values, period, even if God tried to shoehorn them into it. If people have values at all, then presumably they could exist without God.

and we have no reason not to do whatever we feel like and can get away with.

This does not imply widespread total depravity. Even if you assume that people are universally selfish in an expansive sense (which is not even true), people would still want to have rules they can appeal to when their interests are in jeopardy. Nobody would want moral anarchy -- not even the most powerful people, because they know they can always be overthrown, and would have no recourse if they slipped up. Who would want to live in a world where you always have to be on your toes like that? It wouldn't be a rational choice for them to make, in contradiction to your and Log's claim.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

Infantile or realistic?

From what I can tell you are refusing the logical ultimate implications of the atheist philosophy - that is, that nothing you do will possibly matter for more than a limited span of years. It may be a longer or shorter span depending on your contribution, but that is all.

Even if that were true, then so what?

[johndoe]

That is a concept, I can't quite fathom. If we have always existed as separate intelligences, then how could we be the children of God. Did he select us out of the intelligence pool? I was under the impression there was some sort of spiritual procreation, that LDS believed in. Am I wrong, if not, I don't understand the correlation.

I'm bumping this, because I am curious for a response...anybody.

and I didn't want it to get lost in the shuffle of the "Athiest fight at the MADB Corral!"

I think most LDS would accept this as true. I think McConkie did. This is what I've always thought, and still do.

We do believe that there is a spiritual procreation, but there is no real doctrine as to what exactly that entails. The best I can do is to offer an analogy with procreation here on earth. A man and a woman come together to create life, but the spirit was already pre-existing (per LDS thought), and wasn't actually created by the parents. I think our spiritual procreation is something similar. Often leaders have talked about God "organizing" our spirits.

OK, back to the atheist smack-down!

[DerAlte]

Why don't you believe everything will eventually be nothing? Don't you believe in the laws of thermodynamics? The big crunch? By science's view everything must eventually become nothing.

At it's simplest, "that which is morally wrong."

How does one determine what is morally wrong?

I'm fine with living through my family. And through knowledge that I pass on to others.

You see, I don't know what the end, finally is, finally. Somewhere, something, until who knows when, is going to be going on, living, and because of that, I will have been a small part of keeping it going. Personally, I want to see that my part is as beautiful as I humanly can make it. The 'truth is beauty' line is generally accurate.

[Mudcat]

To all those on the rant about athiest all being morally equal, including Dahmer...... or perhaps better stated without any morality.

edit add - not necessarily my belief, just an observation of the discussion

I'd like to suggest a thought. Lets switch to a more applicable serial killer....Dahmer was Church of Christ. Why not use a (former LDS) serial killer like Ted Bundy?

What say you?

[DerAlte]

I think most LDS would accept this as true. I think McConkie did. This is what I've always thought, and still do.

We do believe that there is a spiritual procreation, but there is no real doctrine as to what exactly that entails. The best I can do is to offer an analogy with procreation here on earth. A man and a woman come together to create life, but the spirit was already pre-existing (per LDS thought), and wasn't actually created by the parents. I think our spiritual procreation is something similar. Often leaders have talked about God "organizing" our spirits.

OK, back to the atheist smack-down!

Yeah, I generally agree with you here. For sure, we know that intelligence, whatever that is, exactly, is uncreated and co-equal with God, co-equal meaning co-eternal. I think that is close to a given.

But, if I remember correctly, there were two different ways of thinking about just what was this thing or things called intelligence or intelligences.

Mudcat, for the B. H. Roberts stuff, you can get it from either his Truth Way and Life or whatever through Signature, or find a Seventy's Course In Theology. It is quite well laid out there. I wish sometimes I still had all those old books. I don' t have McConkie, either. Darn.

They don't as a Church talk much about it anymore, I sense. Oh, then, the intelligence got put into a spirit body, but no one has a clue how that was managed. I'd bet BCSpace would tell us that there is no doctrine about that, for sure.

[fattim85]

Just because you toyed with, and rejected, atheism doesn't make you an expert on the subject, and your characterizations of atheism sound like caricatures. I feel more hope, greater optimism and more brotherhood with mankind as an atheist than I did previously. It seems like you are not talking about atheism at all but merely taking the good you derive from your belief and projecting onto atheism the opposite attributes.

I never claimed to be an expert on atheism. My post simply relayed my own experiences. I didn't intend it to be an argument, a mischaracterization, or any other such thing. I'm sorry it was read as such.

[Tarski]

Infantile or realistic?

From what I can tell you are refusing the logical ultimate implications of the atheist philosophy - that is, that nothing you do will possibly matter for more than a limited span of years.

You apparently think that anything that does not persist for a literal infinity of physical time is worthless. This is just an opinion, a perverse opinion. It isn't a matter of logic.

It only seems that way to you because you have been brought up with a specific story that features endless, ultimately repetitive persistence of a bodily (even mammalian) individual existence and an endless procreation of creatures with an evolutionarily arrested body plan. It underrates the "eternity" in the present and overrates literal mere physical duration. It focuses on the ultimate fate of the puny individual ego rather than the bigger dance of the multi-verse. Do you think is so horrible that you do not persist while others shall have their day in the sun?

Is this true for all life? Will your eye mites be resurrected with you and become glorified eye mites seated gloriously on the eye of a God? What about flowers, elephants, oceans and planets. All must persist for an infinity of physical time or be counted worthless?

......

I don't know why you think you can logically deduce values from particular existential facts such as whether gods or devils exist. As they say, ought does not follow from is.

.........

Also;

Even if God exists, you are still free to value what you will. You can still value the present over the distant future, you may value quality of life over quantity of life etc. You can still put human body parts in your refrigerator--maybe you even imagine your god demands it.

So, God doesn't settle anything about values and meaning anyway.

I can imagine a human looking up and saying, my meaning rains down from the Gods. But then the Gods look up and say....what?..., my meaning is what I make it. Well, why can't humans do the same.

By the way, I think Log and some others should stop listening to the prison wisdom of Jeffrey Dahmer. That's nuts.

[DerAlte]

Hi Mudcat, I just had some other thoughts about the b.h. roberts material.

If you are really interested in these ideas, philosophically, then you should read the book on W.H. Chamberlain, written by his brother. Chamberlain was a Mormon at BYU in the early days. He studied in Chicago, under George Howison, and worked up Mormonism into a version of Howison's personal idealism. That is an interesting read.

I also would bet that Ostler has something on this. I guess he would go with B. H. Roberts.

[DerAlte]

Also, I just checked out the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. I was pretty much right about the intelligences part. Anyway, it is an interesting read. An easy Google.

[Tchild2]

Is this true for all life? Will your eye mites be resurrected with you and become glorified eye mites seated gloriously on the eye of a God?

I hope there is a scribe someplace recording this. Awesome!

[Mudcat]

Also, I just checked out the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. I was pretty much right about the intelligences part. Anyway, it is an interesting read. An easy Google.

Thanks for the tip DerAlte. I read the EoM on the matter of intelligence(pun intended). For a faith, that seems to adhere to an infinite regress I suppose this concept falls right in line with it. Seems like a deep subject, worth a thread of its own at some point in time. On the surface, I don't see that there is enough information available to determine how this relates to the problem of evil.

[spinner]

I never claimed to be an expert on atheism. My post simply relayed my own experiences. I didn't intend it to be an argument, a mischaracterization, or any other such thing. I'm sorry it was read as such.

Fair enough, and sorry if I overreacted to it. I guess different people can experience atheism (or flirtations with atheism) differently.

[DerAlte]

Thanks for the tip DerAlte. I read the EoM on the matter of intelligence(pun intended). For a faith, that seems to adhere to an infinite regress I suppose this concept falls right in line with it. Seems like a deep subject, worth a thread of its own at some point in time. On the surface, I don't see that there is enough information available to determine how this relates to the problem of evil.

No prob. I think I can see some implications for the problem of evil (suffering), given that in Mormon theology, God is not the creator of all things, but rather an assembler, among other things, and working within law, by which even he is governed.

Hope you start a thread on all this sometime.

[Jason]

Even if that were true, then so what?

If it's true then atheism has an ultimately bleak outlook. There is no higher purpose intrinsic to life, and any purpose you try to create, and all your efforts towards it, will eventually be completely forgotten. Wether you commit suicide tomorrow or chose to live another 30 years will make no detectable difference in the universe at all 10,000 years from now.

[mrmendoza]

Mike,

That is a concept, I can't quite fathom. If we have always existed as separate intelligences, then how could we be the children of God. Did he select us out of the intelligence pool? I was under the impression there was some sort of spiritual procreation, that LDS believed in. Am I wrong, if not, I don't understand the correlation.

Emphasis mine. I really don't see how your thought on the matter is any different. From my understanding, LDS think at some point those in Hell will be disorganized...unmade, so to speak. If God has the power to unmake something, then does his awareness of these utter failures not also implicate him. I understand what you are saying about fairness...but it seems more like a rationalization. If he knows you will fail, then what is the point...especially if the consequence is increasing evil. This sort of fairness, at least as it relates to these 'known' failures seems like he is putting a Steven Hawking in a boxing ring vs. Joe Louis. Don't get me wrong, I have to wrestle with this issue myself, I just don't understand how your proposition indicates that you don't.

Lets blame it on God for making Satan. A lot of people do.

However, I would submit that it was not Satan's sin that caused the fall. It was mans.

I thinks its quite plausible that, Adam or Eve could have reached this decision on their own, without the influence of Satan.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter so much what 'many' think. But rather what Christ thinks. Christ suffered, died and arose again to save us from death and hell. Either we can choose to believe these were real consequences he addressed or not. The Bible talks somewhere about the pot griping at the potter....I'm to lazy to look it up today, but I'm sure you know the part I am talking about.

For the record, I didn't make the rules. I'm just trusting in my coach and am trying to play the way he tells me to.

No doubt I would the same way, if I believed as you. Thanks for your thoughts Mike, though there are a few things we don't see eye to eye on, I think there are a lot of things that we do. I appreciate your forthrightness.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Hey Mudcat,

Since I never got the hang of separating the paragraphs of other peoples post, I just have to quote all of it and try to separate my responses in my post. I had already written this response twice but I keep inadvertently hitting the escape button instead of the exclamation button, and wiping out what Ive already written! I guess I'm not to bright!

Here's what I think is an exellent article about the problems of evil, from an LDS perspective, that I hope that you might look up and find interesting;

FARMS Review: Volume - 15, Issue - 1

A review of "Can the Real Problem of Evil Be Solved? in The New Mormon Challenge: Responding to the Latest Defenses of a Fast-Growing Movement" by Carl Mosser

Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 2003

As for the pre-exsistence of the separate intelligences I believe others on this thread have answered that question for you, so I won't go into that anymore.

I don't know where you got the idea that we teach that spirits in hell will be dlsorganized, or unmade! If I believed that, then I would have to agree with you that there would be no point in that! After all, why send them to hell to be punished if you're just going to destroy them anyway? Hell is a place where you go to 1; learn to understand what it is that you've done to be sent there,2; pay the price for your sins 3; be purged from your sins (as if by fire!), and last of all be prepared for the final judgement, where you will be assigned to abide in whatever level of whatever kingdom you will stay in for eternity!

And yet throughout all eternity you will always know why you never made it to the top!

The highest kingdom we can ascribe to is what we call the Celestial Kingdom, and that can only be reached through the atonement of Jesus Christ! For those of us have called upon him, and obeyed his commandments, He has already payed the price! By His suffering He has purged us of our sins! He has assured us a place in The Celestial Kingdom!

There is much more,but I hope you get the point!

No I don't blame God for sin. It just seems to me that the typical Christian view of creation "ex nilho" leaves no other choice! But we're not typical!

Does it seem ironic to you that in my first post I complained about the unfairness of this life, and then turned around in another post and declared Gods "ultiment fairness"? It seem that I've answered my own question!

I'd like to thank you for giving me this oportunity to reflect on some of the problems that have been bothering me and allowing me to put them in perspective. I don't know if this has been any help to you, but it has helped me to articulate in my own mind why I keep trying when there's so much holding me back!

Yes, I still believe that Mormonisim is the more reasonable, but how else should I think? I have a testomony that Mormonisim is true, wheather it seems more reasonable or not, but it is more reasonable anyway!

With love and respect, Mike.

[Tarski]

If it's true then atheism has an ultimately bleak outlook.

Thats an opinion. Some of us think a literal eternity of procreation of a fixed species will eventually look repetative and lose meaning.

Wether you commit suicide tomorrow or chose to live another 30 years will make no detectable difference in the universe at all 10,000 years from now.

Whether you commit suicide will also not make any detectable difference to the universe right now but 10,000 light years away.

Think of time like space.

Anyway, due to chaos/complexity theory, what you do may have a huge effect on what happens 10,000 years from now (Butterfly effect).

Also, the fact that there is not fixed intrinsic purpose to life is actually freeing since we can create novel meaning (we already do it).

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

If it's true then atheism has an ultimately bleak outlook. There is no higher purpose intrinsic to life, and any purpose you try to create, and all your efforts towards it, will eventually be completely forgotten. Wether you commit suicide tomorrow or chose to live another 30 years will make no detectable difference in the universe at all 10,000 years from now.

Is it supposed to alarm me that what I do today or tomorrow or the day after may make no difference even a 100 years from now?

I do not care!

TODAY I hope to see a smile from someone I care for. TODAY I hope to hear laughter bubbling out of a child. TODAY I will see children selling lemonade I helped them make. TODAY I will tend to my garden. TODAY I intend to read a book and swing on my front porch enjoying a breeze. I hope to help ease troubles TODAY. I go do my 2 hours of volunteer work for an abused women's shelter TODAY. If need be I shall kiss booboos on scraped knees TODAY. I need to go visit an elderly woman that is about to pass away that has no family (and I eat her hard candies when she insists) TODAY. Without a doubt I'll see some young men, that I taught, skateboard past my house TODAY. I will squeeze a little hand as I teach someone how to cross the street safely TODAY. I shall water a hanging basket with a nest in it and make sure to be careful not to upset the nest TODAY. I fuss at the city when they try to top my 100+ year old dogwood tree TODAY and yesterday and the day before that and shall do so tomorrow, as well. I will talk on the phone with an old friend and laugh and snicker at jokes that are absurd, yet, well known to us both TODAY. I intend to cut some roses and stand back admiring them after I've displayed them artfully as a centerpiece in my dining room TODAY. I will be helping a child recite lines for an upcoming rehearsal TODAY. I will continue to look for Cotillion dresses, that my daughter pretends to hate to wear, TODAY. If there's a summer thunderstorm (I hope there will be!) I shall spin about in it TODAY. I always sing and dance about my home while I clean and know I shall do the same TODAY. I will rock out in my car (and not care if other motorists notice) TODAY. I'll more than likely recite a Dr. Seuss book (I have them memorized -- no need to read them) TODAY. I will make another list of what I need to do to be prepared for tomorrow (just started first year Law School-- lots of lists!) TODAY! I will eat some juicy, plump grapes (I eat them everyday!) and as they burst in my mouth I shall savor them TODAY. I will sit down and play my piano then encourage my children to practice their instruments TODAY! I will more than likely give an impish smile at a man that holds a door open for me TODAY. I will talk to my contractor and he will tell me I need to make some final decisions TODAY on my plans for an addition and I will not do that TODAY ('cause I can't make up my mind!). I may cry (I probably will!) as I watch or read a news story and fume at some tragedy or injustice and then maniacally brainstorm how to help TODAY. I shall slice ripe tomatoes I grew, sprinkle a lil salt over them, place them on toasted bread and will be delighted at the simplicity of a tomato sandwich TODAY!

I could keep going....

I don't care that any of my actions don't last for eternity or may not have a discernible impact for eternity. There is nothing bleak about my life or my outlook. What is wrong with now?

I do think of the future and those that come after my time on earth. Yet, do they need to know my name? Do they need to know my life? Do they need to know my sacrifices? My joys? My heartaches? My anything? No. I know. I know now. I also don't need to be fulfilled by the thought that my actions may reverberate long after I'm gone. I have no problem with recognizing the impact my actions have in the moment. I don't want to be memorialized for all eternity. I find that thought process more than a bit unseemly, quite frankly.

What purpose does an afterlife give you? What higher, ultimate purpose does God belief give you, Jason?

Is it assigned to man by God? What is it?

[Mudcat]

Hey Mudcat,

Since I never got the hang of separating the paragraphs of other peoples post, I just have to quote all of it and try to separate my responses in my post. I had already written this response twice but I keep inadvertently hitting the escape button instead of the exclamation button, and wiping out what Ive already written! I guess I'm not to bright!

I know what you mean. It aggravates me when I delete my own post, as well. I call it operator malfunction.

Here's what I think is an exellent article about the problems of evil, from an LDS perspective, that I hope that you might look up and find interesting;

FARMS Review: Volume - 15, Issue - 1

A review of "Can the Real Problem of Evil Be Solved? in The New Mormon Challenge: Responding to the Latest Defenses of a Fast-Growing Movement" by Carl Mosser

Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 2003

As for the pre-exsistence of the separate intelligences I believe others on this thread have answered that question for you, so I won't go into that anymore.

Our discussion, got me thinking about this. I've read up on it a little know, and have started a thread I haven't had a chance to get back to yet. But if you are interested in this sort of thing, here is a link to it.

I don't know where you got the idea that we teach that spirits in hell will be dlsorganized, or unmade!

If I believed that, then I would have to agree with you that there would be no point in that!

My father-in-law actually brought this idea up. I think we were talking about the sons of perdition, though. And from what I remember, he said his thought wasn't official doctrine.

After all, why send them to hell to be punished if you're just going to destroy them anyway? Hell is a place where you go to 1; learn to understand what it is that you've done to be sent there,2; pay the price for your sins 3; be purged from your sins (as if by fire!), and last of all be prepared for the final judgement, where you will be assigned to abide in whatever level of whatever kingdom you will stay in for eternity!

OK, this is news to me. I have been studying LDS doctrine for a bit now, and I believe I have entirely missed this. I wan't to make sure I am understanding you, though. It seems like you are saying hell, is much like the Catholic view of purgatory, a place of purging and suffering, but not an eternal place. With the obvious exclusion in comparison that Catholics believe you must be a Christian to enter purgatory. From what I can understand of this, you are saying all will manage to escape hell and make it to heaven.

How does this impact agency? seems like hell is a place where you suffer until you decide to love God, at least as you have described it.

Do you feel the angels that fell in the pre-existent will get the same privilege, or is their suffering eternal?

No I don't blame God for sin. It just seems to me that the typical Christian view of creation "ex nilho" leaves no other choice! But we're not typical!

This is a difficult topic, as I hold to an 'ex nihilo' view. I understand exactly what you are saying. However, I feel that because God created the potential for choice does not necessarily put him in a position to be blamed for sin. To say that he could be blamed for sin, would be saying that giving us the power to choose was the wrong thing to do, and I don't believe that. He created all things in harmony and gave us the opportunity to sing our part or sing our own song.

Does it seem ironic to you that in my first post I complained about the unfairness of this life, and then turned around in another post and declared Gods "ultiment fairness"? It seem that I've answered my own question!

I'd like to thank you for giving me this oportunity to reflect on some of the problems that have been bothering me and allowing me to put them in perspective. I don't know if this has been any help to you, but it has helped me to articulate in my own mind why I keep trying when there's so much holding me back!

Emphasis mine. Always happy to help an LDS with their testimony.....its moment like these that make me think I am doing a really good job as an evangelical .

Yes, I still believe that Mormonisim is the more reasonable, but how else should I think? I have a testomony that Mormonisim is true, wheather it seems more reasonable or not, but it is more reasonable anyway!

Emphasis mine. At the end of the day, you, myself and others latch on to our own testimony as the basis of our belief.... Maybe the rest of it is all just fluff.

However and to get back on topic, it seems that Atheists who have come from a religious background, have either not had such spiritual revelations or have been able to chalk them up as an emotional response of some sort. Hopefully an athiest, who was once a spiritual person will see this, and respond to what kind of process this was. I just don't think I could ever kick my testimony to the curb and I am curious to know if that was a difficult thing for those who have become atheist.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Deborah]

It seems that when theists think in terms of life they look forward to an afterlife and eternity for anything meaningful, yet, I do not subscribe to that. Why is it supposed that I live my life with the fear of death, despair, and destruction?

On the other hand atheists seem to assume that we who do believe in the afterlife somehow don't value this life as much and look forward to each day here. This life is precious and each day should be lived to its fullest. Yes, the afterlife is to be looked forward to but that doesn't make this life less to look forward to.

On the whole subject of whether there is a God, I was thinking this morning of all the coincidences and happenstances that had to go not only into making this world one in which man could live but to even make man the intelligent, creative and functional being he is. What a great precise coincidence that the moon is just in the right place to create tides, which are vital to the sustainability of the oceans not to mention the value in sea travel and in creating energy. As I think about all these accumulative little things that have created our world, the happenstance of such is just too enormous. Logically it makes no sense that it was all an accident of chance. A creator setting these things in motion makes much more sense.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

On the other hand atheists seem to assume that we who do believe in the afterlife somehow don't value this life as much and look forward to each day here. This life is precious and each day should be lived to its fullest.

I do not assume that. If I did I would wonder why anyone would continue to live if they actually preferred after death to life. I've talked to many theists over the last year that repeatedly tell me my life has no meaning without God belief or belief in an afterlife. I have never told one of them (or made assumptions) about how meaningful their life is. I just want to know, specifically, what extra meaning they have from belief in an afterlife. No explanation has ever been offered, to me.

Yes, the afterlife is to be looked forward to but that doesn't make this life less to look forward to.

I never assumed that life was not important to theists.

On the whole subject of whether there is a God, I was thinking this morning of all the coincidences and happenstances that had to go not only into making this world one in which man could live but to even make man the intelligent, creative and functional being he is. What a great precise coincidence that the moon is just in the right place to create tides, which are vital to the sustainability of the oceans not to mention the value in sea travel and in creating energy. As I think about all these accumulative little things that have created our world, the happenstance of such is just too enormous. Logically it makes no sense that it was all an accident of chance. A creator setting these things in motion makes much more sense.

I am awed by the slow process of evolution. It makes more sense, to me, to see the flaws apparent in the human body, nature, etc... and to understand how evolution does not give organisms a perfect form. If I were to believe that God created humans I would have to consider all the flaws and well, that doesn't make sense, to me, that a perfect creator would make so many mistakes.

[Jason]

I could keep going....

But everything you enjoy TODAY will be gone forever tomorrow, in the view of atheism. Time and entropy are always hanging over your head whether you recognize them or not.

What purpose does an afterlife give you? What higher, ultimate purpose does God belief give you, Jason?

If life is indeed eternal then our actions become infinitely more significant, since they will stay with us and be remembered throughout eternity - at least by us if by no one else. We must learn to live with ourselves and be happy with our actions because there is no end to them - no final oblivion. Our current relationships with friends and family, which we value so much in this life, can really be eternal. That makes them much more significant as well.

Ultimately, entropy and time will not win - instead life, immortality, and eternal progression will prevail. The outlook for eternity is much more positive than the atheist view - even the tiniest actions MATTER much more.

Is it assigned to man by God? What is it?

The purpose of existence is intrinsic in existence, not assigned. God only helps us to understand that purpose and develop to our full potential. It is to be truly happy. Eternally.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

But everything you enjoy TODAY will be gone forever tomorrow, in the view of atheism. Time and entropy are always hanging over your head whether you recognize them or not.

I do recognize them. I've repeatedly stated that if nothing I do makes any impact on the future I'm cool with that. Why do you assume that's bleak?

Do you not eat Birthday cakes because you don't want to spoil them? Do you put all joys into a freezer and put them on ice so that they last for eternity afraid to touch them, handle them, and watch them fall away? What is wrong with noticing that all things have a limited span of time to bloom, wither, then die? Should I buy plastic flowers instead of gardening?

Have you ever given anonymously, Jason? To someone that knows not your name? Knows not your sacrifice? Knows not your actions or concern for them? They accept it and may know not of you and you tell no one else. This little action may give relief for a moment to them and then they may forget of it. No one else knows! You forget this small charity as you continue to do other acts and not dwell and memorialize each little action. Is that a problem for you?

WHY?

If life is indeed eternal then our actions become infinitely more significant, since they will stay with us and be remembered throughout eternity - at least by us if by no one else. We must learn to live with ourselves and be happy with our actions because there is no end to them - no final oblivion. Our current relationships with friends and family, which we value so much in this life, can really be eternal. That makes them much more significant as well.

Why must they be remembered? What is in the memory of an action that makes it more significant?

Would it surpise you to know that I learn to live with myself, my actions, and I do believe there is a final oblivion. This does not trouble me, in the least!

Ultimately, entropy and time will not win - instead life, immortality, and eternal progression will prevail. The outlook for eternity is much more positive than the atheist view - even the tiniest actions MATTER much more.

They matter more because they are remembered? This is the great signifigance of actions -- being remembered and glorified for eternity? Sorry, not impressed.

The purpose of existence is intrinsic in existence, not assigned. God only helps us to understand that purpose and develop to our full potential. It is to be truly happy. Eternally.

What is the intrinsic purpose, precisely?

[Jason]

I do recognize them. I've repeatedly stated that if nothing I do makes any impact on the future I'm cool with that. Why do you assume that's bleak?

How do you define "bleak"? I define it in this case as "without real meaning, hopeless."

Have you ever given anonymously, Jason?

Of course.

No one else knows! You forget this small charity as you continue to do other acts and not dwell and memorialize each little action. Is that a problem for you?

It's important to you when you give, and it's never completely forgotten. It forms part of your character, which is eternal.

They matter more because they are remembered? This is the great signifigance of actions -- being remembered and glorified for eternity? Sorry, not impressed.

Not just being remembered, but mattering. And not mattering for the immediate future only and then being forgotten, but having some small influence on the universe forever. Surely an action that forever alters the course of future events matters more than one that does not?

What is the intrinsic purpose, precisely?

To be truly happy forever.

That is the simpilest precise explanation. How to acheive that purpose is a much more lengthy topic.