The Appeal Of Atheism?

[spinner]

If atheism is true, this guy wins.

Since all paths have the same end, according to atheists, you might as well live it up.

Wow, leave it to Log to take a cordial and enlightening discussion and turn it into 'atheists are psychopaths who murder and torture children.' You, sir, continue to outdo yourself.

[Log]

While I didn't say what you attribute to me, strictly speaking, there is no "me" to outdo in the materialist metaphysical framework. There are only chemicals interacting. We're all meat-puppets, with genes playing the music as our neurochemicals dance along our synapses. Does it really matter what one meat-puppet does in relation to another?

[Tchild2]

While I didn't say what you attribute to me, strictly speaking, there is no "me" to outdo in the materialist metaphysical framework. There are only chemicals interacting. We're all meat-puppets, with genes playing the music as our neurochemicals dance along our synapses. Does it really matter what one meat-puppet does in relation to another?

Thank heavens religion exists to keep pyschopaths in check (speaking generally of course). It is like you are mad at atheists for seeing a world without God, or at yourself for having no internal sense of morals that you might live in harmony with others but know that you cannot without an external supernatural agent and a heaping portion of fear.

[Log]

Thank heavens religion exists to keep pyschopaths in check (speaking generally of course). It is like you are mad at atheists for seeing a world without God, or at yourself for having no internal sense of morals that you might live in harmony with others but know that you cannot without an external supernatural agent and a heaping portion of fear.

I'll take that for what it's worth, considering the (self-contradictory) source! Appeals to morality from atheists entertain me.

[Mighty Curelom]

If atheism is true, this guy wins.

So? Didn't your mother tell you that the world isn't fair?

[Bond...James Bond]

Wow, leave it to Log to take a cordial and enlightening discussion and turn it into 'atheists are psychopaths who murder and torture children.' You, sir, continue to outdo yourself.

This is dedicated to Log and others who think atheists will devolve into psychopaths without the Jesusbrake.

[ruski_canuk]

Inspired by Mudcat's thread, I started another...

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=37418

[noob123]

In matters of faith (not to beconfused with matters of fact), I think it reasonable to use "benefit" and "value" as additional indicators of probable truth. You, on the other hand are welcome to rely solely on your benefit/value-free conjectures.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

lol. You are choosing to use a fallacy in your logic. Not saying much for you.

I'm active LDS, and not attacking your beliefs but please... go do some basic study of logic and reason and you'll see how incorrect you are for using wanted outcomes as causes for probable truth.

(Please excuse any spelling errors).

-Noob

[Mudcat]

Mike,

God would only be responsible for our evil if he had created us ex nilhlo or out of nothing, with full knowledge and aforethought, as it seems a lot of Christians think. We believe that we have always exsisted as separate intelligentces.

That is a concept, I can't quite fathom. If we have always existed as separate intelligences, then how could we be the children of God. Did he select us out of the intelligence pool? I was under the impression there was some sort of spiritual procreation, that LDS believed in. Am I wrong, if not, I don't understand the correlation.

Our "creation" from God was to enable us to fulfill our full potential and become like Him if we could. Knowing our weakness He provided a way through the atonement of Christ, for us to overcome those weakness'. Yes He also knew of our potential to do evil, and I suposse He even knew which ones of was would fail completly. But, in His ultimate fairness, He had to give each and every one of us who served Him ih heaven the chance to acchieve whatever level we were acctually capable of!Then as I've said before, WE would Know that His judgements are just!

Does that makes him responsible for the evil that we do?

Emphasis mine. I really don't see how your thought on the matter is any different. From my understanding, LDS think at some point those in Hell will be disorganized...unmade, so to speak. If God has the power to unmake something, then does his awareness of these utter failures not also implicate him. I understand what you are saying about fairness...but it seems more like a rationalization. If he knows you will fail, then what is the point...especially if the consequence is increasing evil. This sort of fairness, at least as it relates to these 'known' failures seems like he is putting a Steven Hawking in a boxing ring vs. Joe Louis. Don't get me wrong, I have to wrestle with this issue myself, I just don't understand how your proposition indicates that you don't.

How much more responsible is it for God who knows all things from the beginning to the end to have created Saten in the first place if He knew all along the total depravity that he was going to cause?

Lets blame it on God for making Satan. A lot of people do.

However, I would submit that it was not Satan's sin that caused the fall. It was mans.

I thinks its quite plausible that, Adam or Eve could have reached this decision on their own, without the influence of Satan.

If, as many would have it, all things were created from nothing but Gods mind, then what kind of god is it that we worship, that creates, not to destroy, but to torture forever the majority of his creations for succuming to forces they have no power over?

Ultimately, it doesn't matter so much what 'many' think. But rather what Christ thinks. Christ suffered, died and arose again to save us from death and hell. Either we can choose to believe these were real consequences he addressed or not. The Bible talks somewhere about the pot griping at the potter....I'm to lazy to look it up today, but I'm sure you know the part I am talking about.

For the record, I didn't make the rules. I'm just trusting in my coach and am trying to play the way he tells me to.

As I've said before, I believe that the LDS view is far more reasonable then the typical Christian view!

No doubt I would the same way, if I believed as you. Thanks for your thoughts Mike, though there are a few things we don't see eye to eye on, I think there are a lot of things that we do. I appreciate your forthrightness.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Wow, leave it to Log to take a cordial and enlightening discussion and turn it into 'atheists are psychopaths who murder and torture children.' You, sir, continue to outdo yourself.

Most likely 'atheist psychopaths' get there training early at Atheist Summer Camp for Kids

And who said, atheists weren't a religion?

[Noggin]

Reading this post, I found myself nodding in agreement with most things you said. However, I consider myself an atheist. I hate the semantic debate about agnostic and atheist (which to me are two words for the same thing) quite a bit, but was wondering how you are defining agnostic (without knowledge, in regards to god) and Atheist (without a belief in god). That's how I define them, and although I consider myself an atheist, I would not call myself "dogmatic" but rather just lacking a belief in god until evidence is shown.

Hi Eldwynn

I wrote that post mainly with the framework I developed in that:

atheism: without a belief in god

strong atheism: a willingness to state that there is no God whatsoever.

I don't get how strong atheism exists. It appears that most strong atheists are intelligent and some even thought their way out of religion through logical deductions of some sort. How can one rule out that "God" isn't some bizarre concoction of any infinite possibility starting with some solipsism type brain in the vat evil genius Matrix scenario all the way to three toed aliens with 14 hands who happen to exist from afar are using earth as one of millions of test planets by which they conduct calculated moral relativity experiments in real time?

It's the notion of non falsifiable entities. God, in the traditional religious sense of the word, cannot be falsified any more or less than Unicorns can be.

I am currently without a belief in god, but I warmly wish that a kind white bearded and extremely benevolent grandfatherly type of God who cared about me enough to sit down and just chat awhile existed and set all these things in motion here. I'd even forgive such a being if it existed but gave up on earth or went on vacation 14,000,000,000 years ago after he set the universe afire...

But such a wish is unfounded, whimsical and pointless since if one such God existed, it left me no basis by which I could detect (reliably) and exclude one faith based claim against all the others.

So for now, I just try to practice kindness... and I constantly strive towards that.. failing and flailing as I do it. But kindness, kindness is a virtue that will never grow old or tired.

Noggin

[spinner]

Most likely 'atheist psychopaths' get there training early at Atheist Summer Camp for Kids

And who said, atheists weren't a religion?

Well I'm sure you'll be glad to see that God has been duly smiting them, and that they are holding their camp in an appropriate location.

http://west.camp-quest.org/

http://michigan.camp-quest.com/

[Bond...James Bond]

And who said, atheists weren't a religion?

I'll admit it. We are a religion. But we're soo irresponsible in our moral relativistic way that we don't even have the honesty to build temples to atheism, and instead meet covertly in coffeeshops in informal groups [due to our inability to submit to any authority, either Godly or otherwise through his agents such as Monson or George W.]. Further, we're soo lazy and unmotivated in our nihilistic hedonism that we forget to talk about hating on religion and instead talk about music and movies and other interesting [and ultimately Satanic] cultural items.

[Mudcat]

Well I'm sure you'll be glad to see that God has been duly smiting them, and that they are holding their camp in an appropriate location.

I wonder if in their adolescence, these aspiring young atheists will in their rebellious phase become theists....Just to spite dear old dad.

[Tarski]

If atheism is true, this guy wins.

Since all paths have the same end, according to atheists, you might as well live it up.

1. Who says its always the "end" the matters?

2. Only the individual ends when someone dies. Life, society, beauty, love etc. continue indefinitely. Is this just egoism on your part?

3. What do you mean by "live it up"? You mean do all the things you really wanted to do all along save for God looking down on you?? Well for me those things that I want to do may be a little more noble than yours and may include seeking knowledge, cultivating kindness, etc.

In other words, I already am doing what I want. It just happens to not be what you imagine.

Perhaps you need to look in your own soul. You already are as you would do if there were no God, afterlife or threat of punishment.

[Log]

1. Who says its always the "end" the matters?

If all paths lead to the same destination, does it matter which path is taken?

2. Only the individual ends when someone dies.

Sentimental gibberish in the face of the material facts.

Life, society, beauty, love etc. continue indefinitely. Is this just egoism on your part?

There is no individual - only meat puppets dancing to their neuro- and bio-chemical music.

3. What do you mean by "live it up"? You mean do all the things you really wanted to do all along save for God looking down on you?? Well for me those things that I want to do may be a little more noble than yours and may include seeking knowledge, cultivating kindness, etc.

None of these things has any meaning, since nobility, knowledge, kindness, etc, have no more and no less significance, goodness, badness, or anything else, than the thrill that guy I referred to from CNN got. All is simply chemical reactions obeying the laws of quantum physics, and so forth. There is no meaning to it - granting atheism, of course. It came from nothing, will return to nothing, and it doesn't matter what happens in between.

[J.S. Mill]

I stopped believing in God three years ago, and since then I have killed exactly zero people and raped exactly zero children. What's your explanation for that, Log? I'm pretty sure you could see where atheists are coming from if you put a little creative thought into the topic.

[Log]

I stopped believing in God three years ago, and since then I have killed exactly zero people and raped exactly zero children. What's your explanation for that, Log? I'm pretty sure you could see where atheists are coming from if you put a little creative thought into the topic.

You, and the rest of your reading-impaired compatriots, seem to be imputing a claim to me that I never made. J. S. Mill, you ain't. Nevertheless, I am grateful, for my children's sake, that you haven't embraced the logical outcome of your belief system.

[Tchild2]

None of these things has any meaning, since nobility, knowledge, kindness, etc, have no more and no less significance, goodness, badness, or anything else, than the thrill that guy I referred to from CNN got. All is simply chemical reactions obeying the laws of quantum physics, and so forth. There is no meaning to it - granting atheism, of course. It came from nothing, will return to nothing, and it doesn't matter what happens in between.

That 'nothing matters' is merely one of many subjective interpretions of the meaning of life. Yours seems to be rather nihilistic without your after-this-life beliefs. So, that is your take, but here on this thread alone, you have half a dozen posters telling you that life does have purpose, meaning and joy, despite the insistence, or credulence perhaps, of your viewpoint that it shouldn't, doesn't or cannot, (as an atheist).

The odd thing about theists is that they state that they believe in God, but theists believe in a God with quite contradictory and varied qualities. The Baptist God is the same Biblical God of Mormonism, but it is a different God in purpose and in relation to humans as is the Mormon God. The Baptist God will damn you if you don't do things exactly as the Baptists say to. Likewise, so it goes for other religions. Theists might be correct that there is a God, but the particular one you believed in was incorrect and everything you have done will also be for naught preparing to meet this God. What is the point of that?

What would be the theists attitude if they discovered that God really did exist, but that such a God did not interfere with humans, and that no punishment awaited us for any decision we made in this life?

[Tarski]

If all paths lead to the same destination, does it matter which path is taken?

Not all path lead to the same destination. For example, Democracy leads to a different place than communism. You are too focused on yer own arse.

Sentimental gibberish in the face of the material facts.

Nope. It just goes over your head.

There is no individual - only meat puppets dancing to their neuro- and bio-chemical music.

Now this is jibberish.

None of these things has any meaning, since nobility, knowledge, kindness, etc, have no more and no less significance, goodness,

Wrong wrong wrong.

All is simply chemical reactions obeying the laws of quantum physics, and so forth.

So?

and it doesn't matter what happens in between.

Says who? matters to who? Your opinion on what matters is decidedly beside the point.

Hey do you deny quantum physics, neurology, chemisty etc? No you don't. But you do seem to think that adding in a God and some spirit matter helps somehow. But what if God himself is biological (albeit perfected etc)? Then he is just a meat puppet?

Oh but he and we also have invisible or transparent "spirit puppets" inside right? Mere, silly, spirit puppets made of mere spirit.

Hmm. I guess you think that something has to be added to matter to make meaning? Is it spirit? Well what is that exactly but a word? Thats just more stuff. Until you can explain how some extra ghostly stuff makes the crucial difference without just asserting it or employing magical thinking then your imagined world doesn't help.

You are nothing but a meat puppet holding a transparent ectoplasm puppet.

What does it matter if the puppet is made of spirit? How can this ghost stuff hold meaning or freedom or whatever in a way that quantum fields cannot? What are the properties of this "nonmaterial" stuff and how do those properties help anything? Why can't matter, by virtue of proper organization, have those very same properties?

[Palador]

2. Only the individual ends when someone dies. Life, society, beauty, love etc. continue indefinitely. Is this just egoism on your part?

Not true, actually. At some point in the future, everything that exists will effectively be reduced to sub-atomic particles. Unfortunately, all life will be extinguished in the universe before then, but saying that anything in this universe will continue indefinately flies in the face of the second law of thermodynamics. Death comes to all in this universe, and everything will be reduced to nothing.

The only hopes that we have is that there is an extra-universal answer to this question. Solutions such as:

A) A supernatural part of the universe that we can't see (i.e. God)

Parallel universes with differing timelines and differing natural laws.

or

C) This is an oscillating universe, and everything will collapse upon itself into a singularity and re explode into a Big Bang. Unfortunately, current evidence suggests otherwise.

Unfortunately, with the exception of C, there is very little evidence of any of them. With C, there's evidence of the opposite.

This is part of the reason why I rejected atheism.

[Log]

That 'nothing matters' is merely one of many subjective interpretions of the meaning of life. Yours seems to be rather nihilistic without your after-this-life beliefs. So, that is your take, but here on this thread alone, you have half a dozen posters telling you that life does have purpose, meaning and joy, despite the insistence, or credulence perhaps, of your viewpoint that it shouldn't, doesn't or cannot, (as an atheist).

I have half a dozen self-purported meat-puppets reacting to stimuli and nothing more. That you can't wrap your emotions around the utter denial of the individual as anything other than a meat-puppet (simply an automaton, a collection of reacting chemicals) is not my problem. I am grateful that the remains of the light of Christ within many atheists cries out in denial of that perspective, even while logic demonstrates it to follow inexorably from the materialist premise. Tarski is a case study in contradictions on this matter. Richard Dawkins, on the other hand, embraces it.

[Tchild2]

I have half a dozen self-purported meat-puppets reacting to stimuli and nothing more. That you can't wrap your emotions around the utter denial of the individual as anything other than a meat-puppet (simply an automaton, a collection of reacting chemicals) is not my problem. I am grateful that the remains of the light of Christ within many atheists cries out in denial of that perspective, even while logic demonstrates it to follow inexorably from the materialist premise.

You are nothing but a meat puppet holding a transparent ectoplasm puppet.

That has to be the funniest thing I have read on here in a long time. Log, relax, it is just dialog and opinions. We aren't going to snatch your God and disappear him. Besides, you are as much a meat puppet as the rest of us.

[Log]

We aren't going to snatch your God and disappear him. Besides, you are as much a meat puppet as the rest of us.

I'm more worried that another Dahmer will take your dogma seriously and start snatching kids and disappearing them. See my sig for details.

[Tchild2]

I'm more worried that another Dahmer will take your dogma seriously and start snatching kids and disappearing them. See my sig for details.

I see your point, because it had to be atheism right? Maybe atheists could have gotten to Dan and Ron lafferty a bit earlier and saved a couple of lives? Now that is dogma that can really kill.