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The Appeal Of Atheism?


Mudcat

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There are higher laws than what we can discern in this mortal existence. In the end even metaphysics has basis in law, though beyond our comprehension.

Oh jeez. The whole point of metaphysics is that it transcends all scientific measure. You're hope and assumption that isomeday these things will be describable by science is a convoluted way of saying you're really putting it all on faith. Really you have nothing to go on except faith since you can't prove metaphysical arguments scientifically at this juncture, and thus we just have to take your word for it that it'll all work out in the end. So really it's my word against yours. Well except that I have science on my side and all you got faith.

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Is it fair to assume that the way you live your life is a testiment to your belief that "benefits don't matter"?

LOL

As if to prove my point and MC's point, Wade jumps in with this zinger!

No, befenfits of X don't matter to the question of whether X really really exists or not. That the existence of X, or belief in the existence of X, would be beneficial does nothing toward making X exist and does nothing toward providing evidence that X exists.

If you really don't care to know the truth (good or bad, happy or sad), then go ahead and believe whatever you think is beneficial to believe (as long as it doesn't make you act in a way that infringes on the rest of us).

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LOL

As if to prove my point and MC's point, Wade jumps in with this zinger!

No, befenfits of X don't matter to the question of whether X really really exists or not. That the existence of X, or belief in the existence of X, would be beneficial does nothing toward making X exist and does nothing toward providing evidence that X exists.

If you really don't care to know the truth (good or bad, happy or sad), then go ahead and believe whatever you think is beneficial to believe (as long as it doesn't make you act in a way that infringes on the rest of us).

In matters of faith (not to beconfused with matters of fact), I think it reasonable to use "benefit" and "value" as additional indicators of probable truth. You, on the other hand are welcome to rely solely on your benefit/value-free conjectures. :P

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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In matters of faith (not to beconfused with matters of fact),

huh?

Are you saying that the existence (or nonexistence) of God not is not a matter of fact?

I think it reasonable to use "benefit" and "value" as additional indicators of probable truth.

Really? How does that work? Does the benefit that a million dollars in my bank account would give me provide even the slightest indicator of its probable existence?

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The statement that I have bolded is inaccurate. Implicit in this statement is the assumption that the beginningless series of events must in fact have a beginning.

OK.....in an infinite series of events that spiral backwards into the infinite past, the present is the byproduct of all that...from my understanding of what infinite regression is. However, I am positing that if the past is infinite, then the present has yet to occur, nor can it occur because an infinite past stands before it. I find the concept, that because we are here at this moment, somehow implies we are here by virtue of a series of infinite events, to be speculation at best. IOW, a wild guess.

Here's another objection of mine that I'll recycle here for you. Assuming you believe that God is absolutely omniscient, and that at least some of us mortals will have an infinitely long future in immortality, then an actual infinite must exist in God's mind. In a similar vein, even if you posit that God is timeless, do you believe that God has acted only a finite number of times (i.e. performed only a finite number of actions during His existence)? If so, then why? He is an infinite being. If not, then His knowledge of those actions are again an actual infinite.

Sure, God is infinite. I suppose this one of those things an atheistic perspective slaps the old Occam's razor to.

Why is the belief in an infinite God/Creator we can't see, feel, taste, smell, etc... more logical than the belief in a infinite regression of "stuff". Because we can taste, see, feel, smell the stuff that is here right now?

My answer would be, where did all this stuff come from?

If its always been here.

I would ask you Why and How?

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QUOTE(Noggin @ Aug 19 2008, 09:08 PM)

If there was a God, and that God was able to prevent suffering, yet did not do it, how can one find a God worthy of fealty in that?

Because one needs to understand the bigger picture: that this life is the blink of an eye in eternity.

But there isn't any proof of that.

God does know the beginning from the end

But that is just a faith based statement, without any means or basis to accept it as valid.

but he also allows us to have our agency

But how can anyone know that any more than the trillion other just as feasable concoctable explanations as to what, if anything, is pulling the levers behind the curtains?

Again, you seem to forget that many theists claim God is the omnipotent Creator, knowing the end from the beginning of all God's creations. Knowing that many of his Created humans will both perpetrate heinous evil and/or become the obstacle of said behavior.. yet God sends them down to earth regardless. That form of God is nosensical. And think about it, Deborah... Omnipotent means Omnibenevolent, Omni-compassionate. Very wierd stuff to consider.

and to gain experience which helps us to understand suffering and its consequences

To gain experience? There are so many instances where you and I might learn something by observing the suffering in others... but so many more instances (seemingly infinite) where the sufferee is the likes of a 9 year old Somalian girl who gets raped to death... what important life lesson does she learn? It makes no sense to me.

as well as all the good and beauty in the world.

Yes. God supposedly helps people out all the time as I noted on page 2. God helps, and it seems that God ignores capriciously. Why give God the credit when something good happens but then turn a blind eye when God fails to suppress widespread suffering. You might counter that God works through you and I. Yet you and I are not God. There is only so much I can do to alleviate suffering. I can't pull Darfur out of starvation and genocide mode. But the God that many Christians believe in could, yet doesn't.

It's that old theme of opposition in all things, which atheists hate. I actually understand that without the LDS view of man being able to progess and become as God this probably doesn't make much sense.

Answer me this then, Deborah. North Americans, by and large, live in this isolated world seperate from the suffering going on in other countries. If you and I are here on earth to strive to become a God, what part does the needless suffering, death, dismemberment, pillaging whatever play in that LDS role? You have to concede that it is completely unecessary for a human to become a God to live an insulated ineffective (as in unable to do anything about Darfur.. if one even bothered to read up on what is happening over there)... insulated life such as many North American/ Canadian people do.

Why can't the whole world be North America? We have our tragedies, but we aren't running from hut to hut to flee the machete or AK-47. If you were God, wouldn't you try to make some sort of a balance happen? Why the prolonged silence over the last thousands of years?

However, if one has a higher goal than playing harps through eternity then actual experience is a necessity.

Do you mean the SUV driving, Yoga class taking, Paved superhighway driving, wall to wall carpeting, treated potable water drinking, fully sanitized sewage treated, stock market investing, Nordstrom buying, wave runner enthusiast, Triathlon competing, dental insurance wielding, heart transplant available on every corner, all night rave attending, binge drinking, my life sucks because I did not get my $1,000 a year raise North American experience? Or do you mean the other happenstance humans who (poor souls) happen to believe differently than the Government sanctioned religion or ideology in Afghanistan and elsewhere who get publicly executed at soccer matches?

What constitutes "actual experience" that is so desperately needed.. to you?

What important life lesson do the young 1990's Sierra Leone boys need to learn by having one of their arms chopped off in the midst of the conflict diamond (still going on)... short sleeve or long sleeve? (choose if you want your arm chopped off at the wrist or elbow). Or what about war in general? The rape of Nanking? The Holocaust? Stalin? Pol Pot? Jim Jones? David Koresh? Mountain Meadows Massecre? It does not really seem necessary that any God would weave such a device into its masterplan... at least an omni benevolent one.

One can go to school to become a doctor but he doesn't become a great doctor until he has actually practiced for many years and learned by experience and putting into practice all the book knowledge.

Then all of us should move ourselves immediately, via the peace corp or what have you... give up our plush life styles... actually live the words of the God you believe in and consider if we could fit through the eye of the needle Jesus spoke of... give all our possession away and follow him... and instead, immerse ourselves into the mayhem and bloodletting going on in the world... throwing our lives into making a difference.. a counter balance to the sickening thud of the machete and rat a tat of the AK-47's going off daily. for if we do it... won't we will all be all the more prepared to become a God in the next life?? ... we are just too dang insulated in North America. Hardly the proving grounds for becoming a God.

Noggin

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Then all of us should move ourselves immediately, via the peace corp or what have you... give up our plush life styles... actually live the words of the God you believe in and consider if we could fit through the eye of the needle Jesus spoke of... give all our possession away and follow him... and instead, immerse ourselves into the mayhem and bloodletting going on in the world... throwing our lives into making a difference.. a counter balance to the sickening thud of the machete and rat a tat of the AK-47's going off daily. for if we do it... won't we will all be all the more prepared to become a God in the next life?? ... we are just too dang insulated in North America. Hardly the proving grounds for becoming a God.

Noggin

I've wondered about the (apocryphal) notion that somehow one's life is a reflection or reward for how valiant one was in the last life...it seems logical to assume that, like you point out, most of us who are capable of accessing this forum and wasting our expendable time posting on it have been severely handicapped rather than blessed if the intent of this life is not a reward but rather a test...it almost becomes offensive to think that the offset frequently pointed out is some claim to having greater access to the gospel.

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First to the OP:

I'm an atheist and it simply means I don't believe in God. You're an atheist, too. Just not in regards to your God. I didn't use science, reason, or anything other that a young pre-teen mind that recognized that God just was not evident in this world. Later I contemplated my lack of belief and attempted to believe in what most of my peer groups believed. I could not do it! I wasn't really raised a Christian and my early experience with other religions made it difficult to even find much about Christianity that appealed, to me. I didn't choose my lack of belief -- it just was! I just did not believe. I no more believed in Amaterasu (the goddess of Shinto that I knew from my childhood) then I believed in the Abrahamic God.

I think the biggest appeal of atheism is that it panders to our pride. Because so much of it is purportedly rooted in science and rationalism, it's easy to look down on religious people as naive simpletons. As someone who has toyed with atheism before, I found it satisfying to think that I had more figured out than my religious counterparts.

The other major appeal is the illusion of freedom that atheism creates. Without a God or any other punitive metaphysical entity, one is finally free to do as one pleases without any sort of eternal consequences. However, the removal of God from the picture also removes hope from life, so the freedom of atheism really just ends in despair.

I have no pride I'm an atheist. As a matter of fact I tell no one off the net of this. I do not feel superior to those with faith. There is nothing about my lack of belief that has to do with science or rationalism. Last year I was able to discover why I had spiritual experiences and that was science related, yet, I had lost my belief in God some 15+ years prior to this.

Without God there is still humanity. My actions can wreck havoc on others. I see beauty and nobility in the living and am heartbroken with the thought that I'd cause pain to someone. That you subscribe some traits to me merely because I lack belief in God is really foolish, wouldn't you think? I have hope in my life! I have desires, dreams, aspirations, love, meaning. The same as you. Mine is just for now and for the future of those that will come after me. My life (and the lives I see about me) are not any less meaningful because there is nothing after death -- ON THE CONTRARY I see more urgency to do all I can while I live because it's only now. One shot. No do overs. No saving graces. No despair -- lots of hope that the little actions I take today, and the day after, and the day after that will bring peace or joy to some other life and that the small smile I give to a stranger will brighten their day. That my children will live on after me and treat their fellow man with compassion and love, too.

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Oh jeez. The whole point of metaphysics is that it transcends all scientific measure. You're hope and assumption that isomeday these things will be describable by science is a convoluted way of saying you're really putting it all on faith.
And that is the point of religion, that some things are taken on faith. So what? Any scientist or explorer with an idea had to have faith in that idea first. Then came the experiments and the trial and error. It wasn't until after all this that they had the "evidence" for their faith, or the evidence for something different than they origianlly thought; but even the something different was often more than they could even have imagined.
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That's an excellent point. I often see Christians attempt to disprove (or maybe just deride) atheism by making claims that atheism produces undesirable social consequences. Atheists are more promiscuous, or less charitable, or die earlier, or are more susceptible to depression, or a number of other undesirable outcomes. Unfortunately, atheists can't seem to help themselves and end up taking the bait by trying to disprove these allegations. But in reality, it's a red herring. Even if atheism made people selfish, promiscuous, mean-spirited hedonists, it wouldn't mean atheism is an incorrect interpretation of reality. I wish more atheists would resist the impulse to justify their unbelief by making claims of improved moral senses, or greater personal freedom, an increased capacity for empathy, or any number of supposed benefits. None of that matter. When it comes to the philosophical validity of atheism, all that matters is whether or not there's a God.

I disagree with part of this. I think it's appropriate to counter the stereotypes. I've done this in the past by posting statistics that show the stereotypes of societal ills falling on neat Christian vs. non believer lines is not accurate. If one part of the argument is that atheists and teaching evolution is dangerous then I find it acceptable to counter these arguments. Why? Because there's a debate in society and part of it rests on the us v. them mentality when it comes to believers and unbelievers.

~Edited 'cause I don't know when I'll be back and don't want to get a CFR~

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My answer would be, where did all this stuff come from?

If its always been here.

I would ask you Why and How?

If I said I don't know is that okay? Is stating that I don't understand precisely why the world or universe is as it is unacceptable? I have no problem with understanding that I don't hold all the answers and knowing I likely will not ever. That's not problematic, for me. Yet, still I can't choose to believe God did it all.

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I was an atheist for almost a year after I lost my faith in Mormonism. I teetered back and forth with doubts and reconciliations. But I did wear the cloak of atheism for oh, about a year. It was silly, really. For me, I found atheism just about as dogmatic as theism was. Dogmatism rubs me raw. I decided that there is no way to rule out some sort of a higher force or intelligence did not use, for example, evolution, to create humans and all other life as we know it. I discovered the satisfying freedom of saying "I Really Don't Know About That!". But discovering what or who or how that force actually is or was is the trick. In that spirit, I went searching to turn over the stones of some of the world religions.

As I teetered back and forth here and there, I came to a point in my loss of faith where I could not find any means to stay faithful to Mormonism while simultaneously rejecting Islam, non Mormon Christianity, Jehovah's Witnesses, or what have you. Faith based claims were decidedly faith based claims. I was prayerful, and held many moments of introspection. I talked to so many people in different faiths for a few years. I would give non Mormon religion at least as good an attempt in discerning Truth as I gave for Mormonism. I found that in nearly all the religions I considered, there was no means available to discern if it was the approved religion. Each "felt" uniquely wonderful and satisfying. So many of the other religions out there so obviously surpassed Mormonism in fellowshipping and honest to goodness extension of soul satisfying brotherly love that I was brought to tears with gratitude for the sheer humanity I was finding out in this great big world. I felt, several times, by comparison, ashamed at how calloused and cold or unfeeling my former religion seemed to be to its investigators or to those not of the LDS faith. Mormonism, in my view, often times holds a quasi hostile or untrusting flavor to those outside the LDS group.

Eventually, as grand as my experiences were, I found no basis by which I could thoughtfully reject, say Islam, or Catholicism, and then accept any other non Mormon religion. So in that light, the process repeated itself but kind of in reverse when I lost faith in Mormonism.

What was the basis I could use to say one was false and one was true, are they all true, they all cannot be true siultaneously.. can they?

I decided that if God existed, then it, he, she, did a rather poor job in providing a basis by which a human could discern what it wanted that human to do while they lived. So I adopted my own codes of conduct, which I won't bore you with, but they are wonderful to me.

Being an atheist was uncomfortable for me. There is an existential nothingness that is not satisfying (to me). Most of my atheist aquaintences are very comfortable in dealing and comprehending the nothingness. I think it was all so raw on account of having to deal with the passing of my mother at the time and the thought of her not existing in any way at that point just devestated me. I had the pleasure of an Evangelical friend of mine who was "fellowshipping" me at the time inform me that my dear Mormon mother was now roasting in the flames of hell on account that she never worshipped the real Jesus. Nice! That was not one of the more brotherly kindness moments in my journey.

I am still searching in many ways. That is part of the reason I post here and elsewhere on other forums. I admit I am "stuck" in finding the basis by which I can reject one and accept another. But for the moment, agnosticism seems to be a great fit.

Noggin

Reading this post, I found myself nodding in agreement with most things you said. However, I consider myself an atheist. I hate the semantic debate about agnostic and atheist (which to me are two words for the same thing) quite a bit, but was wondering how you are defining agnostic (without knowledge, in regards to god) and Atheist (without a belief in god). That's how I define them, and although I consider myself an atheist, I would not call myself "dogmatic" but rather just lacking a belief in god until evidence is shown.

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Bond...,

Oh yeah. You probably know me under my alias, Vanilla AtheIce.

The amount of cheese that was generated in this statement would most likely feed Ethiopia for a month.

However, to give credit where it is due. Only Bond....James Bond could pull it off.

BOM,

If I said I don't know is that okay?

Sure.

Is stating that I don't understand precisely why the world or universe is as it is unacceptable?

As long as you are not stating that I don't know why, it is fine with me.

I have no problem with understanding that I don't hold all the answers and knowing I likely will not ever. That's not problematic, for me. Yet, still I can't choose to believe God did it all.

I think I am understanding the concept of atheism a little better.

My simplified hypothesis of atheistic ideology is this BOM.

Lets say you and I awake in a white room together. We have no past memory and all we know is we are in a white room. After time we begin to communicate with each other.

I postulate something put us in the white room.

You might submit that all you know is that we are in a white room.

I might further postulate that the thing that put us in the room was God.

You might say, we have no reason to believe that.

I might say...well if not God..then maybe it was a giant ostrich egg with magical powers that lives on the other side of the wall, that put us here.

You might, say we have no reason to believe that either.

I might ask you, why don't you believe in God or Giant Magic Ostrich Eggs?

You might say, because I have no reason to believe they exist.

I might say, but we should believe in God or at least the GMOE , because we are here.

You might say, just because we are here doesn't mean there is a God or Giant Magic Ostrich Eggs.

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The amount of cheese that was generated in this statement would most likely feed Ethiopia for a month.

However, to give credit where it is due. Only Bond....James Bond could pull it off.

LOL. For my next impossible feat I will sell Scientology to Tarski and The Dude...at the same time. In one short hour I will have them throwing money at L. Ron. Two weeks and they'll be Level 6. Minimum. :P

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As a "believer" I also believe that the Glory of God is in almost all things! Surely there must have been some guiding hand to the creation of all things! As an LDS I have found a much better "reasoning" for both good and evil then I ever could under my old Baptist upbringing. Having been a temple worker a few years back, I can testify as to the validity - truthfulness, if you will - of what we do there, by the spiritual experiances I personally had. And let me tell you that I've never been one who's always claimed a lot of strong spiritual experiances, before, or since then!

And yet I too have trouble trying to understand how any greater good can posiblely(sic) come frome a child being raped to death! I also have trouble understanding the seeming unfairness of life. How that some people are given every opportunity in the world to sucseed while others don't seem to be given any chance at all! There are so many things that just don't seem to fit into the well ordered "plan of happiness" that I sometimes find myself despairing and wondering why I even try!

I can see why athiesim might offer some sort of comfort! They don't have to answer, or even ask, the question of why there is so much unfairness in the world. They can just say "Look at the animal world and the natural order of things. Some things are at the bottom of the food chain and some are at the top! that's just the way it is!"

They don't feel the need to answer to, or ask the favor of, anyone other then perhaps their neighbor or friend other tangible people who can give them an imediate answer! They wouldn't be constantly wondering if what they're doing is pleasing unto God! Nor would they be asking "What would Jesus do?" or as I might ask "What would Jesus want me to do?"

For them, I suppose, at the end of the day, it's just that, the end of the day! I think that those who would try to impose their athiesm on everyone else are crackpots just as much as a religious, or political, fanatic is!

As believers then, we believe in certain "absolutes". God is real! He doesn't just exsist, but He loves each and every one of us! Yes, he allows us to do, or have done to us, horrible things. Things that we in our finite minds can't see the reason for! Indeed our faith is sorely tried in this refiners fire of life, but because of the testimony that he has given me I still have hope. Hope in the ultimante triump of good over evil! Hope that at the end of the day, God will heal the broken spirit and heart of that little girl and her family! Hope that the answer to the eternal question "Why?" wil be satisfactualy answered! For without that hope I would truely despair and life would be meaningless!

Mike

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OK.....in an infinite series of events that spiral backwards into the infinite past, the present is the byproduct of all that...from my understanding of what infinite regression is. However, I am positing that if the past is infinite, then the present has yet to occur, nor can it occur because an infinite past stands before it. I find the concept, that because we are here at this moment, somehow implies we are here by virtue of a series of infinite events, to be speculation at best. IOW, a wild guess.

Yet the notion that God must exist because there must be an absolute First Cause for everything isn't speculation? I am not the one arguing that an infinite regress must be so.

I understand your argument. I have read William Lane Craig's version of it. The argument is implicitly assuming a beginning on the beginningless series that extends infinitely into the past. If you state that the present cannot have arrived because an actual infinite must have been traversed for it to arrive, then what you are doing is picking a beginning point infinitely far in the past and trying to come back to the present by successive addition.

So it is not proper to state that an actual infinite must have been traversed, but rather that an actual infinite has always been being traversed.

Sure, God is infinite. I suppose this one of those things an atheistic perspective slaps the old Occam's razor to.

Your stance is inconsistent. One of the premises of Craig's argument against infinite regression is that it is impossible to traverse an actual infinite. If God holds an actual infinite in His mind, and it is truly impossible to traverse an actual infinite, then He cannot have access to the entire set of infinite knowledge in His mind. If you feel that He can, then you have admitted that it is not impossible to traverse an actual infinite, and your entire argument against infinite regress falls flat.

Why is the belief in an infinite God/Creator we can't see, feel, taste, smell, etc... more logical than the belief in a infinite regression of "stuff". Because we can taste, see, feel, smell the stuff that is here right now?

To be fair, I was responding to your assertion that your belief in God is more logical than the atheist position, not my own belief. That being said, I think belief in God as ultimate First Cause (together with other classical assumptions) makes the Problem of Evil unworkably problematic unless you go the route of Calvinism and argue that there is no Problem of Evil since God cannot be judged by any external standard. I have reservations about that approach as well, though strictly speaking I don't find it logically contradictory.

My answer would be, where did all this stuff come from?

If its always been here.

I would ask you Why and How?

Where did God come from? If He has always been here, why and how?

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huh?

Are you saying that the existence (or nonexistence) of God not is not a matter of fact?

I am saying that it is not something that as yet can be established as fact one way or the other. Hence, it is currently a matter of faith, belief, or opinion. Do you suppose differently?

Really? How does that work? Does the benefit that a million dollars in my bank account would give me provide even the slightest indicator of its probable existence?

If you have been receiving a sizeable dividend check each month commenserate with the interest rate claimed by the bank, wouldn't that give you some kind of clue?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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As a "believer" I also believe that the Glory of God is in almost all things! Surely there must have been some guiding hand to the creation of all things! As an LDS I have found a much better "reasoning" for both good and evil then I ever could under my old Baptist upbringing.

.....

And yet I too have trouble trying to understand how any greater good can posiblely(sic) come frome a child being raped to death! I also have trouble understanding the seeming unfairness of life. How that some people are given every opportunity in the world to sucseed while others don't seem to be given any chance at all! There are so many things that just don't seem to fit into the well ordered "plan of happiness" that I sometimes find myself despairing and wondering why I even try!

Hey Mike,

Though I agree with you that there is a great evidence for God in his creations. I am puzzled about how the LDS view is superior reasoning, on the bold statement, emphasis mine.

As I have looked at it, the LDS view seems to believe that evil is eternally necessary. I find that pretty hard to digest.

Another point, would be how it relates to the concept of the pre-existence. If humanity is actually those that choose God over Satan, and coming here is all part of the process.... what does this imply for those child rapists, etc. that are spiritually supposed to be God's chosen ones.?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

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Hi JD,

Yet the notion that God must exist because there must be an absolute First Cause for everything isn't speculation?

If you discount warm fuzzy feelings, it is speculation. However, since my thoughts on the matter are under girded by such warm fuzzy feelings I would say, no its a fact.

I am not the one arguing that an infinite regress must be so.

Am I? If so, I blame it all on my 'other' personality.

I understand your argument. I have read William Lane Craig's version of it.

I have heard a lot about this guy, in comparisons to some things I think. I may read a book from him.

Your stance is inconsistent. One of the premises of Craig's argument against infinite regression is that it is impossible to traverse an actual infinite. If God holds an actual infinite in His mind, and it is truly impossible to traverse an actual infinite, then He cannot have access to the entire set of infinite knowledge in His mind. If you feel that He can, then you have admitted that it is not impossible to traverse an actual infinite, and your entire argument against infinite regress falls flat.

I think it is apparently possible for God to transverse an infinite and I don't think my argument falls flat because of that.

The premise, being that God is not subject to the laws that govern the universe. He is the creator of that law. In short, the properties of God do not have to be consistent with the properties of Universe.

To be fair, I was responding to your assertion that your belief in God is more logical than the atheist position, not my own belief. That being said, I think belief in God as ultimate First Cause (together with other classical assumptions) makes the Problem of Evil unworkably problematic unless you go the route of Calvinism and argue that there is no Problem of Evil since God cannot be judged by any external standard. I have reservations about that approach as well, though strictly speaking I don't find it logically contradictory.

Emphasis mine. I would say that I don't adhere to Calvinism. However, the concepts of Molinism are attractive to me. Simply put. God having infinite knowledge could foresee all possibilities of all options for creation. In short, he knows what a universe with me not being born at all, with me being born in the Amazon jungle, etc.... would look like. His option was to create the most perfect situation, in which the most were saved, Scripture was best preserved, etc.. This concept allows for free will to remain intact and at least for me, gives resolution to the problem of Evil.

Where did God come from? If He has always been here, why and how?

He always was. Good question, I dunno.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

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