Lunch With Margaret Barker

[urroner]

That's an excellent idea!

An even better idea is to do the conference in Orlando, Florida.

[David Bokovoy]

They had to attach wires to the back of my head to pull the corners of my mouth up for that photo. Here is my mouth in a completely relaxed state.

I don't mind the frown. But what's up with all that facial hair Professor?

[Kevin Christensen]

That's an excellent idea!

I can provide enthusiasm for the subject. And get round to finishing up another paper or two. And there are lots of bright LDS students and scholars out there, many of whom take an interest.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Bill Hamblin]

I don't mind the frown. But what's up with all that facial hair Professor?

If you've got it, grow it, cause--as you should know--you may not always have it.

[David Bokovoy]

If you've got it, grow it, cause--as you should know--you may not always have it.

And what does that mean?

[David Bokovoy]

I really enjoyed these videos, Bill. However, I'm going to take a major exception to one point:

I can't believe that you really, as you claim, had "some good food" at the Eagle and Childs' pub. Unless it was in fact their fish and chips, which my wife ordered and seemed to enjoy.

Perhaps it depends upon how one defines the word "good."

[David Bokovoy]

Ok, so I'm finally feeling motivated enough to begin studying MB's work. I have not yet read anything that she's actually published except for the lecture given at the Joseph Smith seminar.

I think it was the first video where Bill raised the question regarding which book a student should begin with in order to understand her views. I'm going to throw down some money, so I need a little help.

What book(s) should I start with?

[urroner]

Ok, so I'm finally feeling motivated enough to begin studying MB's work. I have not yet read anything that she's actually published except for the lecture given at the Joseph Smith seminar.

I think it was the first video where Bill raised the question regarding which book a student should begin with in order to understand her views. I'm going to throw down some money, so I need a little help.

What book(s) should I start with?

Margaret Barker has her own website which has quite a few papers of hers - http://www.margaretbarker.com/

Some of the papers are very insightful, especially when it comes to the Covenant and the environment.

I have her latest book, Temple Theology, and I have really enjoyed it. Also, like Sargon said in another thread, Christensen's "Paradigm Regained" is great. It use to be on the FARMS website, but I can't find it there any longer.

[Bill Hamblin]

#4 Barker's new book project on Temple and Environmentalism

#5 Barker's views on Social Justice issues

#6 Barker's ideas on "seeing the face of God" and the Temple

[Bill Hamblin]

And what does that mean?

Whooh! That is one mean-looking dude! Is he the guardian of the Council of the Gods?

I really enjoyed these videos, Bill. However, I'm going to take a major exception to one point:I can't believe that you really, as you claim, had "some good food" at the Eagle and Childs' pub. Unless it was in fact their fish and chips, which my wife ordered and seemed to enjoy. Perhaps it depends upon how one defines the word "good."

Bangers and Mash. It was excellent.

Ok, so I'm finally feeling motivated enough to begin studying MB's work. I have not yet read anything that she's actually published except for the lecture given at the Joseph Smith seminar. I think it was the first video where Bill raised the question regarding which book a student should begin with in order to understand her views. I'm going to throw down some money, so I need a little help.What book(s) should I start with?

Temple Theology.

[Sargon]

You can find alot of good Barker stuff here:

http://www.thinlyveiled.com/barker.htm

[consiglieri]

Barker 3a+b on her new book (due in Oct)

Now, that is one book I've gotta get!

Three Essene high priests come to give Jesus the three gifts associated with the expulsion of Adam from Eden, and having to ask Herod for directions on account of the DSS say "no" savior shall be born in Bethelehem?

Wow!

Thanks so much for taking the time and effort to share this great stuff, Professor Hamblin!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[David Bokovoy]

Whooh! That is one mean-looking dude! Is he the guardian of the Council of the Gods?Bangers and Mash. It was excellent.Temple Theology.

This picture, taken by my wife, serves a very important purpose. Anytime an Anti-Mormon sends me an email trying to counter something I've written or said, I simply send them my photo as a response.

Works like a charm!

Also, thanks for the recommendation. I almost bought The Great High Priest one year at SBL, but they were still asking a bit much. I picked up Temple Theology for around 16.00 on Amazon.

Loved the Bath video BTW. I did that double decker ride with my wife, too. I hope you enjoyed the Jane Austin museum. Before my visit, I had completely forgotten about Jacob's ladders on the abbey. I was really excited to see them. We should have put them on the Salt Lake temple.

[Kevin Christensen]

For an OT giant like David, I'd recommend The Older Testament, as it establishes the foundation of her approach. She told me that some American reviewers of the The Great Angel made criticisms that showed that they hadn't read the earlier book. She considers her books a serial production. As with Nibley, you come to realize that it is all really one big book, rather than disconnected studies.

Nibleyophiles tend to do well with her more technical books because we come with some exposure to her range of sources. For novices, Temple Theology is definitely the best way in.

Though it was The Great Angel that attracted LDS attention in the first place. That's where I started, spotting some copies during a 1999 visit to a Dallas Half Price books, the only copies of any Barker book I had ever seen. Before I was halfway through, I called my brother and asked him to go back to the store and buy every copy they had left.

On the other hand, I noticed that it was Margaret's presentation at BYU of material from "Text and Context," an essay in The Great High Priest on how Christianity ended up with the wrong Old Testament, an edition prepared after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, prepared specificially in response to the rise of Christianity, that changed Jack Welch from an attitude of guarded reserve, to the memorable image of him bounding down to the front of the room at the end of the lecture, and excitedly opening her monogrammed triple combination to 1 Nephi 13, and asking, "Have you read this!" In response, she asked him questions about the Narrative of Zosimus.

On the other other hand, I also think that David should read "The Original Background of the Fourth Servant Song" which is linked on her website.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[David Bokovoy]

Thanks so much, Kevin.

This is what I've been looking for. I just took a look at it on Amazon and the Older Testament is pretty steep at 40 bucks. I'm going to head over to the Brandeis library today and check it out.

Much thanks.

[urroner]

For an OT giant like David, I'd recommend The Older Testament, as it establishes the foundation of her approach. She told me that some American reviewers of the The Great Angel made criticisms that showed that they hadn't read the earlier book. She considers her books a serial production. As with Nibley, you come to realize that it is all really one big book, rather than disconnected studies.

Nibleyophiles tend to do well with her more technical books because we come with some exposure to her range of sources. For novices, Temple Theology is definitely the best way in.

Though it was The Great Angel that attracted LDS attention in the first place. That's where I started, spotting some copies during a 1999 visit to a Dallas Half Price books, the only copies of any Barker book I had ever seen. Before I was halfway through, I called my brother and asked him to go back to the store and buy every copy they had left.

On the other hand, I noticed that it was Margaret's presentation at BYU of material from "Text and Context," an essay in The Great High Priest on how Christianity ended up with the wrong Old Testament, an edition prepared after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, prepared specificially in response to the rise of Christianity, that changed Jack Welch from an attitude of guarded reserve, to the memorable image of him bounding down to the front of the room at the end of the lecture, and excitedly opening her monogrammed triple combination to 1 Nephi 13, and asking, "Have you read this!" In response, she asked him questions about the Narrative of Zosimus.

On the other other hand, I also think that David should read "The Original Background of the Fourth Servant Song" which is linked on her website.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

I am a novice and I really enjoyed her papers "Text and Context" and "The Original Background of the Fourth Servant Song", especially the latter. It was a true eye opener for me.

[David Bokovoy]

Thanks again, Kevin. Checked out The Older Testament from the library this afternoon. Looking forward to the read.

[Kevin Christensen]

Thanks again, Kevin. Checked out The Older Testament from the library this afternoon. Looking forward to the read.

Good. Saves me having to offer to buy you a copy. Back in 1999, when I lived in Lawrence, KS I lucked out and and found a copy in the KU library. Since it was out of print, I xeroxed it. While working on Paradigms Regained, I found all of her other books, either with Amazon, or Bookfinder, but that one elluded me till it got reprinted a couple years ago. At one point, I'd been checking bookfinder once or twice a month for a couple of years, getting nothing. Then I heard that David Waltz checked once, spotted a copy, and that was that. Argghhh!

But now, it's all much easier. Even The Gate of Heaven, her history of the Jerusalem temple, is back in print.

By the way David, I quoted you on Jeremiah and seeing in the collaborative essay I did with Margaret on "Seeking the Face of the Lord: Joseph Smith and the First Temple Tradition." So by Christmas, whenever the book arrives you'll have been published by Oxford University Press.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[David Bokovoy]

Good. Saves me having to offer to buy you a copy. Back in 1999, when I lived in Lawrence, KS I lucked out and and found a copy in the KU library. Since it was out of print, I xeroxed it. While working on Paradigms Regained, I found all of her other books, either with Amazon, or Bookfinder, but that one elluded me till it got reprinted a couple years ago. At one point, I'd been checking bookfinder once or twice a month for a couple of years, getting nothing. Then I heard that David Waltz checked once, spotted a copy, and that was that. Argghhh!

But now, it's all much easier. Even The Gate of Heaven, her history of the Jerusalem temple, is back in print.

Yeah, they had the new edition in the Brandeis library. Drove out specifically to get it. Gonna start it this afternoon and then read the temple theology book when it arrives.

By the way David, I quoted you on Jeremiah and seeing in the collaborative essay I did with Margaret on "Seeking the Face of the Lord: Joseph Smith and the First Temple Tradition." So by Christmas, whenever the book arrives you'll have been published by Oxford University Press.

Awesome! So glad you were interested in the idea. Congratulations on your article. Can't wait to read it. Oxford is a big deal!

[e=mc2]

I can provide enthusiasm for the subject. And get round to finishing up another paper or two. And there are lots of bright LDS students and scholars out there, many of whom take an interest.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Count me DEFINITELY IN!

[e=mc2]

Thanks again, Kevin. Checked out The Older Testament from the library this afternoon. Looking forward to the read.

Oh my! I am re-reading it right now because I am doing some Dead Sea Scrolls and Enoch videos on my You Tube site. Her info on Elyon as one of the names of God is really quite startling! I can't help it man, I simply can't stop reading this woman's writings!

[e=mc2]

For an OT giant like David, I'd recommend The Older Testament, as it establishes the foundation of her approach. She told me that some American reviewers of the The Great Angel made criticisms that showed that they hadn't read the earlier book. She considers her books a serial production. As with Nibley, you come to realize that it is all really one big book, rather than disconnected studies.

Nibleyophiles tend to do well with her more technical books because we come with some exposure to her range of sources. For novices, Temple Theology is definitely the best way in.

Though it was The Great Angel that attracted LDS attention in the first place. That's where I started, spotting some copies during a 1999 visit to a Dallas Half Price books, the only copies of any Barker book I had ever seen. Before I was halfway through, I called my brother and asked him to go back to the store and buy every copy they had left.

On the other hand, I noticed that it was Margaret's presentation at BYU of material from "Text and Context," an essay in The Great High Priest on how Christianity ended up with the wrong Old Testament, an edition prepared after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, prepared specificially in response to the rise of Christianity, that changed Jack Welch from an attitude of guarded reserve, to the memorable image of him bounding down to the front of the room at the end of the lecture, and excitedly opening her monogrammed triple combination to 1 Nephi 13, and asking, "Have you read this!" In response, she asked him questions about the Narrative of Zosimus.

On the other other hand, I also think that David should read "The Original Background of the Fourth Servant Song" which is linked on her website.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

I agree with Kevin, although I must admit, her very first book I read all the way through was "The Great High Priest." That book flat out electrified me! I never looked back, and have tried to purchase everything she has written. She is seriously, one of those scholars who are a *must* read. Not because she totally confirms Mormonism, but simply because of her analysis and way she works with texts. It is utterly INCREDIBLY tantalizing!

[Kevin Christensen]

Outside of LDS readership, it seems to me like the Christian scholars who appreciate her work do so because she gives them a Jesus that they can not only believe in as scholars, but can have faith in as Christians. I think that is why the Archbishop of Canterberry recently gave her an honorary doctrate.

Hey Kerry, I'd certainly be happy to see you present at a Barker Conference. It would be fun to see what people come up with.

I've learned a lot since I wrote the first few things. I've shifted my views on Josiah completely. I completely missed that Jacob 4:14 directly points to Josiah and the Reformers. My chapter on Isaiah would have benefited from seeing "Hezekiah's Boil" (aka "The Original Context of the Fourth Servant Song." When I go back and re-read her books, I'm often shocked at what I missed. But there is so much, it takes a while to take it in. And we have to do a lot of rethinking, and re-reading as a consequence. I wouldn't mind going back and updating Paradigms Regained on some points.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Bill Hamblin]

Here are the last two parts of the Margaret Barker lunch conversation. The discussion focuses on the location of Solomon's Temple, the Nea Church, and Marian imagery and the Temple.

They are downloaded, but still processing, so they probably won't be available to actually watch for another half an hour or so.

[Bill Hamblin]

For those just starting, here is the full playlist. #4 is out of order, but they are all there.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5489A46917BC2825