Orthodox Church Or Lds Church

[LearningGuy]

First post, awesome! I've been browsing these forums for a long time, even before it became mormonapologetics. I've been fascinated by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a number of years, and still have the Book of Mormon that I ordered in 2002. I've been raised Catholic, but stopped going to church recently, though I still believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the truth of the Christian message. I'm now trying to find the Church that is the same one of the Apostles, and continues apostolic beliefs and practices. I'm now trying to decide between the Orthodox Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Both churches have drawn me in at various times over the years. I've attended Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox church before, and LOVED it. I love the use of candles, incense, bells, etc., and you definitely feel like if you're in the house of God, and that this was the way the first Christian worshipped. Did the first Christians used incense, bells, etc? The symbolism found in these Orthodox churches is great, and is a very important part of why I'm drawn to the Orthodox. Miracles such as the holy fire on great saturday in jerusalem, crosses in the sky, etc., seem to draw me closer to the Orthodox Church as well, with these supposed Divine manifestations. Orthodox have services such as vespers, matins, compline, hours, etc., offering services throughout the day (though not all churches do).

I've never visited a LDS meetinghouse, but have been reading a lot about Mormon beliefs. I like that Mormons claim to continue the same organization of the church that was seen in the first century, including Apostles, a prophet, seventies, patriarchs, etc. However, I'm not really aware of there being a "first presidency" in the past. Who was the last prophet before the apostasy? Peter? I like the sense of community and emphasis on an all encompassing faith that affects your life always, whether through family home evening, blessings by the father/husband, priesthood/relief society meetings, etc. The temple definitely fascinates me, especially the washing and anointing and sealing. One question that I always think about is, when someone dies, wouldn't they realize that the LDS view is true, and that when a baptism is performed by proxy for them, why would someone reject it if they see what the truth is? Both Orthodox and LDS believe in some form of theosis, but the belief in exaltation is interesting, especially the belief that we could become like God and have our own spirit children. I'm not sure i've seen that aspect of theosis in my own limited research (that we could have spirit children).

So, I'm having a difficult time choosing what I believe or which Church is the true original Christian Church. I'll start reading the Book of Mormon soon, but the Orthodox Church always pulls my attention as well, esp. due to its worship style, which seems more ancient than LDS meetinghouse worship. Has anyone else had to decide between the LDS and another church? How did you come to your decision? Any thoughts on anything I brought up above would be welcome.

[thesometimesaint]

LearningGuy:

Continue learning. The last prophet before the apostasy finally won is not known. But I would hazard a guess at it was close to the time of Paul(He does speak of the apostasy as already being there.).

While there is much to commend in the Orthodox Church. I believe that the LDS have the better claim.

PS. You'll find that LDS services are much simpler than the more ritualized churches are. We are a family oriented church so things can get a little noisy. What with babies, and restless children. But we're a friendly group. We'll even make make room for you on the pews.

[jwhitlock]

The form of worship service is more of a cultural issue than anything else. I would expect today's Church of Jesus Christ to be quite a bit different in the way worship service occurs as compared to the way it was 2000 years ago, simply due to the significant cultural differences.

Be sure and include God in the process and follow the direction He gives you.

[Daniel Peterson]

I published an essay a while back entitled "Mormonism as a Restoration" that includes some of my thoughts on the subject:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publicatio...18&number=1

It might or might not be helpful.

Best wishes.

[Kate]

The beautiful thing is, LearningGuy, that you have been doing the work...read your Book of Mormon with a desire to know of its truth and ask in sincere prayer, with faith. You will get your answer

~Kate

[Obiwan]

Hi LearningGuy..... Welcome to the journey of Faith and knowledge.

Just a thought on "insense, candles, and all that pomp and circumstance".

You should know that Buddists and all kinds of other religions/groups use these kinds of things and "traditions", but, that doesn't make them true.

So, while you won't find such in LDS services (recommend you start going, to see how it all fits together), I think if you start looking at the things that really makes the "true" Church, you will find we are on the most solid ground of any. Of course, personally I know absolutely so, but, we all have our own journey of Faith that is between us and God.

Keep up the good work. Your much farther than most, it's hard to get people to even intellectually understand that only Catholicism or the LDS Church has a scriptural leg to stand on.

By the way, I was mostly raised Catholic, but then spent time in many a religion, and found them all lacking as to what the Bible entirely said, then found the LDS Church, it was the only one that fully fit, went through a trial of faith being a bit anti religion, and then re-applied myself, and discovered that the LDS Church is the real deal. And the evidences of that grow every day. It's AMAZING!

[Deborah]

However, I'm not really aware of there being a "first presidency" in the past.

I think we can clearly say Peter, James and John were the First Presidency of the ancient church. They are the ones the Lord took to the Mount of Transfiguration. Note how many times in the NT the Lord takes these three Apostles apart from the others.

We read in Joseph Smith History v 72: "The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized."

Once Peter was killed and the Twelve were no longer a Quorum then we no longer had anyone who could act as Prophet, Seer and Revelator and because of the wickedness of men the Lord took such authority from the earth. That is not to say that he hasn't inspired and guided men to do his work in the generations since the Restoration.

We by the way still have many miracles in the modern day church. Joseph Smith healed many people and there are reports that he even raised someone from the dead (Truman Madsen refers to this). In any case I've seen the power of Priesthood blessings and I know how real they are.

God bless you in your search for truth.

[LearningGuy]

thanks for all the replies. I'll definitely try to attend a LDS sacrament meeting, and maybe even the visitor's center at the DC temple. Does anyone know if the NYC temple has a visitor's center or something for non-members?

As far as worship goes, I think it's just that I loved the sensual worship found in the Orthodox Church, and the use of incense does seem to go back to Biblical times, including the temple worship seen in the Bible. It also echoes to worship described in Revelations, where we see incense symbolizing prayers going to God. However I don't think that is too huge of an issue for me, just one of the things I'm thinking about in making this decision. Btw, I've just become obsessed with If you Could Hie to Kolob, haha.

With the Apostles, the thing that I'm thinking about is that I can see that Peter, James, and John were the First Presidency during those times, but weren't there still 12 Apostles (including them)? I'm trying to understand why there are 15 Apostles today, when if it were really a restoration of the Church, wouldn't there by 12 Apostles, with the first presidency being composed of 3 of those 12?

I do think that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does have the strongest claim out of the Restorationist churches, and I've been interested in it on and off for about 6 years now. I love the concept of temple ordinances, and am doing some reading into how it correlates to Old/New Testament times. The sense of community also seems to be stronger than in other churches as well. I definitely think it'll take some more reading before I make a decision, but the above issues are some that concern me.

Thanks again!

[groove]

Just a couple of thoughts here.

I love talking with friends from the Orthodox Church. They have a tradition and history which goes back hundreds of years. They have opulent, beautiful ceremonies, and a complex, fascinating theology. By contrast, when you come from that sort of setting into the average LDS sacrament meeting with its modest accomodations, informal speaking, and crying babies, you might feel as though you have just stepped out of Neiman Marcus and into Target. You will be going from the most systematized of theologies to a young religion, with a more informal pragmatic theology which is more based on simple, wholesome practices.

With that backdrop in place, I know Daniel Peterson has already chimed in here about his "Mormonism as a Restoration" essay. That's a great read and I would recommend it highly. But he also wrote a wonderful editorial from the FARMs review a while back which really encapsulated what I feel to be extremely attractive about the LDS faith in light of seeming deficiencies in tradition and formality (I'm seriously not trying to be a fanboy here, but it has been meaningful to me). He writes:

How improbable it suddenly seemed to me that God's true church resided in the arid Great Basin of the American West, among a relatively unsophisticated people with a very short history.

And yet, that is precisely how an early Christian might have felt...

He then goes on to describe Clement's encounter with Barnabas's preaching of the simple gospel of Christ to the erudites of his day, and then the unique aspects of the LDS restoration of ongoing revelation, covenants, prophets and apostles (not a specific number, but the office), baptism for the dead, temple work etc. I understand that people can have differeing opinions, but for me it made sense that the Lord would have his Church built this way: a church of carpenters and fishermen. Simple, focused on important daily practices which give us peace and stability, experiential rather than theoretical. But at the same time we have this undercurrent of theological richness which we are really only now beginning to appreciate and which restores the goodness of God, largely solves the problem of evil, expounds on the wonderful synchrony of grace and works and the divine worth of mankind, and ultimately provides an expansive vision of the mission of Christ to redeem us for an eternal destiny which is beyond our capacity to appreciate.

[jadams_4242]

First post, awesome! I've been browsing these forums for a long time, even before it became mormonapologetics. I've been fascinated by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a number of years, and still have the Book of Mormon that I ordered in 2002. I've been raised Catholic, but stopped going to church recently, though I still believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the truth of the Christian message. I'm now trying to find the Church that is the same one of the Apostles, and continues apostolic beliefs and practices. I'm now trying to decide between the Orthodox Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Both churches have drawn me in at various times over the years. I've attended Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox church before, and LOVED it. I love the use of candles, incense, bells, etc., and you definitely feel like if you're in the house of God, and that this was the way the first Christian worshipped. Did the first Christians used incense, bells, etc? The symbolism found in these Orthodox churches is great, and is a very important part of why I'm drawn to the Orthodox. Miracles such as the holy fire on great saturday in jerusalem, crosses in the sky, etc., seem to draw me closer to the Orthodox Church as well, with these supposed Divine manifestations. Orthodox have services such as vespers, matins, compline, hours, etc., offering services throughout the day (though not all churches do).

I've never visited a LDS meetinghouse, but have been reading a lot about Mormon beliefs. I like that Mormons claim to continue the same organization of the church that was seen in the first century, including Apostles, a prophet, seventies, patriarchs, etc. However, I'm not really aware of there being a "first presidency" in the past. Who was the last prophet before the apostasy? Peter? I like the sense of community and emphasis on an all encompassing faith that affects your life always, whether through family home evening, blessings by the father/husband, priesthood/relief society meetings, etc. The temple definitely fascinates me, especially the washing and anointing and sealing. One question that I always think about is, when someone dies, wouldn't they realize that the LDS view is true, and that when a baptism is performed by proxy for them, why would someone reject it if they see what the truth is? Both Orthodox and LDS believe in some form of theosis, but the belief in exaltation is interesting, especially the belief that we could become like God and have our own spirit children. I'm not sure i've seen that aspect of theosis in my own limited research (that we could have spirit children).

So, I'm having a difficult time choosing what I believe or which Church is the true original Christian Church. I'll start reading the Book of Mormon soon, but the Orthodox Church always pulls my attention as well, esp. due to its worship style, which seems more ancient than LDS meetinghouse worship. Has anyone else had to decide between the LDS and another church? How did you come to your decision? Any thoughts on anything I brought up above would be welcome.

Ive a really good idea for you? first off get on your knees and ask heavenly father for guidance with a sincere heart as you can muster, then Go attend an orthadox baptism {if they do that?}, or whatever else kind of ordinance they have with the candles ,incense e.t.c.... Then go attend an L.D.S baptism,

{attend in good and sincere spirit}, And dont forget to ask the lord to help guide you.

[Yirgacheffe]

Ive a really good idea for you? first off get on your knees and ask heavenly father for guidance with a sincere heart as you can muster, then Go attend an orthadox baptism {if they do that?}, or whatever else kind of ordinance they have with the candles ,incense e.t.c.... Then go attend an L.D.S baptism,

{attend in good and sincere spirit}, And dont forget to ask the lord to help guide you.

And you can see here that this the best place ever to ask questions about Orthodoxy.

[LearningGuy]

And you can see here that this the best place ever to ask questions about Orthodoxy.

haha it's ok, I've attend a couple Divine Liturgies at an Orthodox cathedral before, so am familiar with their main worship service. I still need to make time to visit a LDS meetinghouse and maybe visit the visitor's center @ the DC Temple.

[furii]

What about catholicism conflicts with the orthodox church to you? When it comes to Orthodox churches and Catholic churches, I know much more about their similarities than their differences (other than historical time frames for these and how it influenced Eurasian history )

Research is great. But the Spirit testifies loudest of all if you let it. Regardless of how good something looks on paper, if in practice it doesn't seem to jive quite right, it'd be hard to worship properly and feel like you're giving it your all, no? I think that going to an LDS meeting would definitely be beneficial in this respect. You don't know how well it will harmonize with your personal feelings and beliefs til you actually see it in practice. Once you've done this you could better assess how you feel. It will probably take a couple of meetings to make an accurate assessment- in my personal experience, going to other churches for the first time (usually friends inviting me along) is very awkward, and you feel uncomfortable, out of place, like you stick out, are people wondering why you're there? etc. etc. whereas the second and third time you're aware of the process of events and can more focus on the spirit that is being invited (or not, depending on where you are and what you're doing!)

Hope this makes sense and perhaps helps some.

Btw, I've just become obsessed with If you Could Hie to Kolob, haha.

*shudders*

[Yirgacheffe]

haha it's ok, I've attend a couple Divine Liturgies at an Orthodox cathedral before, so am familiar with their main worship service. I still need to make time to visit a LDS meetinghouse and maybe visit the visitor's center @ the DC Temple.

But you don't understand it, if you did you wouldn't refer to it as a worship service. There is a why for how they worship, not just pomp and circumstance as others here have implied. It's not some carnival show set up to impress people, every word spoken, every action of the people and every object in the church reflects their theology. Many people will make light of the "pomp and ritual" but if you ask the Orthodox themselves they will explain it.

I don't know how much you've actually looked into Orthodox theology but if attending "a couple of worship service" is it, I'd recommend that at the very least while you read the BOM you also read The Orthodox Way and The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware, for an explanation of their theology. Frederica Mathewes-Green is also a lot of fun to read from the perspective of a member. She wrote of incident in either (I think) Facing East or At the Corner of East and Now where the whole church asked for forgiveness from each other. Neighbors seeking from neighbors, husbands and wives, parents and children, priest and members, all confessing to, and asking for forgiveness from each other. It was very moving. Generally though she's very amusing while still showing what it is to live an Orthodox life.

Also the BOM does not stand alone as scripture, you should keep in mind that it is only 1 of 4 books of scripture for the LDS there is also The Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants, and of course the Bible. (which I've never seen underlined, is it supposed to be a book title) These other books go a long way in showing LDS beliefs.

[LearningGuy]

But you don't understand it, if you did you wouldn't refer to it as a worship service. There is a why for how they worship, not just pomp and circumstance as others here have implied. It's not some carnival show set up to impress people, every word spoken, every action of the people and every object in the church reflects their theology. Many people will make light of the "pomp and ritual" but if you ask the Orthodox themselves they will explain it.

I don't know how much you've actually looked into Orthodox theology but if attending "a couple of worship service" is it, I'd recommend that at the very least while you read the BOM you also read The Orthodox Way and The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware, for an explanation of their theology. Frederica Mathewes-Green is also a lot of fun to read from the perspective of a member. She wrote of incident in either (I think) Facing East or At the Corner of East and Now where the whole church asked for forgiveness from each other. Neighbors seeking from neighbors, husbands and wives, parents and children, priest and members, all confessing to, and asking for forgiveness from each other. It was very moving. Generally though she's very amusing while still showing what it is to live an Orthodox life.

Also the BOM does not stand alone as scripture, you should keep in mind that it is only 1 of 4 books of scripture for the LDS there is also The Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants, and of course the Bible. (which I've never seen underlined, is it supposed to be a book title) These other books go a long way in showing LDS beliefs.

Thanks for the recommendations. I actually do understand it, and please note that I refer to it as the Divine Liturgy, and am referring to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, which is the main liturgy/service used in most Orthodox churches. I have also attended a Presanctified Liturgy, and Liturgy on the feast of the Transfiguration, including the blessing of fruit, as well. I've been interested in the history and symbolism of liturgical worship for a number of years now, including the Divine Liturgy, Novus Ordo , Tridentine, etc. I am definitely drawn to the sensual worship found in the Orthodox Church, not just b/c I like the "carnival show", but I understand much of the symbolism found, much of which is in common with my Catholic understanding of the Mass. If I joined the Orthodox Church, it would be at St. Nicholas Cathedral in DC, which is an OCA church. I've already read The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Ware. I've also read articles on orthodoxinfo.com.

Yep, I know that the BOM is only one of the standard works, however it is the one that missionaries focus on and basically the first scripture one should be familiar with (especially if already familiar with the Bible) coming to the LDS church. I've read numerous articles from various LDS apologetic websites, as well as random books like Mormon America, Mormonism for Dummies, and even browsing the controversial Mormon Doctrine.

So I guess I'd say I've got a good understanding of the basic beliefs and practices of both faiths, I'm just trying to answer some harder questions, and to really see what the truth is. Yes, liturgical worship is found in pretty much all of the ancient churches, such as the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Armenian, etc. But is the sacrament meeting the way the original Christians worshipped? I have seen some LDS articles that compare aspects of Orthodox and Catholic worship and churches to temple practices (such as the iconostasis being compared to the veil before entering the celestial room in the temple). I like that the LDS Church continues the practice of having Apostles (and of course a counter would be that the Orthodox bishops continue the office and power of the Apostles through apostolic succession), but I don't understand whether having 15 Apostles is really a restoration, when the ancient "first presidency" was composed of 3 of the 12, not 3+12. I think I'm getting closer to the LDS Church (probably b/c I've already spent extensive time reading about the Orthodox Church already), but I still have many random questions, so look forward to those! Thanks again.

[Yirgacheffe]

Thanks for the recommendations. I actually do understand it, and please note that I refer to it as the Divine Liturgy, and am referring to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, which is the main liturgy/service used in most Orthodox churches. I have also attended a Presanctified Liturgy, and Liturgy on the feast of the Transfiguration, including the blessing of fruit, as well. I've been interested in the history and symbolism of liturgical worship for a number of years now, including the Divine Liturgy, Novus Ordo , Tridentine, etc. I am definitely drawn to the sensual worship found in the Orthodox Church, not just b/c I like the "carnival show", but I understand much of the symbolism found, much of which is in common with my Catholic understanding of the Mass. If I joined the Orthodox Church, it would be at St. Nicholas Cathedral in DC, which is an OCA church. I've already read The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Ware. I've also read articles on orthodoxinfo.com.

Yep, I know that the BOM is only one of the standard works, however it is the one that missionaries focus on and basically the first scripture one should be familiar with (especially if already familiar with the Bible) coming to the LDS church. I've read numerous articles from various LDS apologetic websites, as well as random books like Mormon America, Mormonism for Dummies, and even browsing the controversial Mormon Doctrine.

Okay, sorry but your initial post seemed a bit "coool, they use incense and bells what do you guys do?" that combined with some of the reponses that seemed a bit "ya well their all about pointless ritual and show" left me a bit peeved . And I disagree with your BOM as a predominant reading assessment , if what you want to understand is the theology. The LDS rate the OT the NT the BOM and the D and C of equal importance as evidenced by their 4 year reading plan. So at the very least you should also look into Doctrines and Covenants.

So I guess I'd say I've got a good understanding of the basic beliefs and practices of both faiths, I'm just trying to answer some harder questions, and to really see what the truth is. Yes, liturgical worship is found in pretty much all of the ancient churches, such as the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Armenian, etc. But is the sacrament meeting the way the original Christians worshipped? I have seen some LDS articles that compare aspects of Orthodox and Catholic worship and churches to temple practices (such as the iconostasis being compared to the veil before entering the celestial room in the temple). I like that the LDS Church continues the practice of having Apostles (and of course a counter would be that the Orthodox bishops continue the office and power of the Apostles through apostolic succession), but I don't understand whether having 15 Apostles is really a restoration, when the ancient "first presidency" was composed of 3 of the 12, not 3+12. I think I'm getting closer to the LDS Church (probably b/c I've already spent extensive time reading about the Orthodox Church already), but I still have many random questions, so look forward to those! Thanks again.

I have a bit of trouble taking these articles as anything more than faith promoting stories since I can't see for myself. No one is allowed to see the ceremonies and LDS members will not discuss them outside of temple, even with those who have gone through them, so any similarity is unverifiable. You are expected to take on 'faith' that these similarities exist. This leave you at a disadvantage in discerning the veracity of the claim. Unless of course you convert

[groove]

I hope that my words were not taken to imply that I viewed Orthodox worship as empty ceremony. On the contrary, I find myself somewhat envious of the rich symbolism and tradition inherent therein.

[LearningGuy]

Okay, sorry but your initial post seemed a bit "coool, they use incense and bells what do you guys do?" that combined with some of the reponses that seemed a bit "ya well their all about pointless ritual and show" left me a bit peeved . And I disagree with your BOM as a predominant reading assessment , if what you want to understand is the theology. The LDS rate the OT the NT the BOM and the D and C of equal importance as evidenced by their 4 year reading plan. So at the very least you should also look into Doctrines and Covenants.

I have a bit of trouble taking these articles as anything more than faith promoting stories since I can't see for myself. No one is allowed to see the ceremonies and LDS members will not discuss them outside of temple, even with those who have gone through them, so any similarity is unverifiable. You are expected to take on 'faith' that these similarities exist. This leave you at a disadvantage in discerning the veracity of the claim. Unless of course you convert

It's ok I will definitely begin to browse the D&C soon, for more of an understanding of LDS belief and practice. From what I've read in these temple comparison articles, they seem to discuss matters that are known about the temple ordinances, and don't mention the sacred aspects of it. But yeah, I won't be 100% sure until I decide to convert

So like above, below are my main questions at this moment about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If someone could help me with these that would be great!

1) The Church claims to be "the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth"-Articles of Faith. I find this to be a strong claim and one of the main reasons why I'm interested in possibly converting. My one question on this is that the NT Church had 12 Apostles. Above, I asked if there was a First Presidency in ancient times, and someone said that Peter, James, and John can be seen as the First Presidency. These 3 were taken from the 12 Apostles, not in addition to them. The Restored Church has 15 Apostles, with the First Presidency added to the 12 Apostles. How does this work? Is this a true restoration of the Church organization?

2) I can accept the position that we can become like God. The Orthodox Church has a strong belief in theosis. St. Athanasius said "God became human so humans would become godsâ? (On the Incarnation 54:3, PG 25:192B)". A similar concept in Roman Catholic theology is the beatific vision. My question is did the ancient Church believe that we can actually become like the Father and Heavenly Mother, creating spirit children? Where do we see this belief in the scriptures and/or other texts from OT/NT times?

[LearningGuy]

What about catholicism conflicts with the orthodox church to you? When it comes to Orthodox churches and Catholic churches, I know much more about their similarities than their differences (other than historical time frames for these and how it influenced Eurasian history )

Research is great. But the Spirit testifies loudest of all if you let it. Regardless of how good something looks on paper, if in practice it doesn't seem to jive quite right, it'd be hard to worship properly and feel like you're giving it your all, no? I think that going to an LDS meeting would definitely be beneficial in this respect. You don't know how well it will harmonize with your personal feelings and beliefs til you actually see it in practice. Once you've done this you could better assess how you feel. It will probably take a couple of meetings to make an accurate assessment- in my personal experience, going to other churches for the first time (usually friends inviting me along) is very awkward, and you feel uncomfortable, out of place, like you stick out, are people wondering why you're there? etc. etc. whereas the second and third time you're aware of the process of events and can more focus on the spirit that is being invited (or not, depending on where you are and what you're doing!)

Hope this makes sense and perhaps helps some.

*shudders*

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are very similar, but they also have a lot of differences. The main one of course is the issue of papal primacy. They also have some differing views on understanding God (Orthodox use an explanation of His essence vs. His energies (going towards an understanding of immanence vs. transcendence)). Doctrinal development is also an important difference, especially when we see that the Orthodox Church maintains a faith of the 7 ecumenical councils, whereas the Catholic Church has called many ecumenical councils after the first 7, the last one of course was Vatican II. Orthodoxy therefore has a disagreement on doctrinal development, and sometimes even sees the Catholic Church as changing historic positions, or adding doctrines (though the Catholic Church sees it as not adding doctrines, but coming to more of an understanding on the same doctrines). There's a difference on understanding of original sin. Finally there is a difference in understanding what happens after death (Purgatory, Hades, prayer for dead, etc).

I have definitely been praying for understanding and hopefully coming to the Truth. I'll try to attend a sacrament meeting sometime soon, as well as an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and hope to understand both and understand more of each theology, and hopefully come to a conclusion. Right now however, I'm very interested in the LDS Church. Thanks again!

[thesometimesaint]

LearningGuy:

In the Church the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are all Apostles. The First Presidency functions as one. Going to the Biblical record it seems as there at differing times more or less than the perquisite twelve member of the quorum.

But of course the Saints are not limited to just what is in the Bible. We use THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS. SECTION 107

[saemo]

learningguy, the Orthodox and Catholic positions on God are not different. They are both Trinitarian. The LDS Church is not Trinitarian. They have only begun recently to use the word itself, but they have applied a very different meaning. This is where the beginning of the differences can be found between Orthodox and LDS. From there, it escalates. You seem to have a view that one is vanilla and one is chocolate but they are both delicious ice creams. They are as incompatable, theologically speaking, as Orthodox and Islam.

So I am a bit puzzled as to how you got to a point where you believe a choice is Orthodox or LDS. Especially when what you describe about what you don't like about Catholicism, is magnified a thousand times in Mormonism. And I am a bit puzzled as to why the LDS here are neglecting to point these facts out to you.

The essence of God in Mormonism is man. A human who was one like every man you meet on the street but who is now exalted. Theosis and beatific vision are not even remotely similar to this LDS doctrine. Mormons believe that there are many gods, this is found in their scriptures in the Book of Abraham, in their Pearl of Great Price.

You really should do your research. And start by first, understanding the definitions that the LDS Church has applied to Christian terms. The words are the same, the meaning is not remotely close.

Good luck to you. And God bless.

edit to fix typo

[thesometimesaint]

LearningGuy:

Saemo is not a LDS and he/she does not represent us in any way shape or form. Saemo is presenting a false picture of what LDS really believe for his/her own polemical purposes.

PS. For the record this IS what the Saints REALLY believe about the Godhead.

The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

[LearningGuy]

learningguy, the Orthodox and Catholic positions on God are not different. They are both Trinitarian. The LDS Church is not Trinitarian. They have only begun recently to use the word itself, but they have applied a very different meaning. This is where the beginning of the differences can be found between Orthodox and LDS. From there, it escalates. You seem to have a view that one is vanilla and one is chocolate but they are both delicious ice creams. They are as incompatable, theologically speaking, as Orthodox and Islam.

So I am a bit puzzled as to how you got to a point where you believe a choice is Orthodox or LDS. Especially when what you describe about what you don't like about Catholicism, is magnified a thousand times in Mormonism. And I am a bit puzzled as to why the LDS here are neglecting to point these facts out to you.

The essence of God in Mormonism is man. A human who was one like every man you meet on the street but who is now exalted. Theosis and beatific vision are not even remotely similar to this LDS doctrine. Mormons believe that there are many gods, this is found in their scriptures in the Book of Abraham, and in their Pearl of Great Price.

You really should do your research. And start by first, understanding the definitions that the LDS Church has applied to Christian terms. The words are the same, the meaning is not remotely close.

Good luck to you. And God bless.

Thanks for your views. As far as Catholic vs. Orthodox on theology of God, yes, they are both Trinitarian in the usual sense of that word. However, there IS a difference in understanding God within that Trinitarian viewpoint. Catholics tend to emphasize what God IS, whereas Orthodox tend to start from a viewpoint of what God is NOT. Like I said above, Orthodox make a distinction between the energies and essence of God, in that the essence of God is distinct from the energies of God (how God acts). It is the energies of God that allow us to experience Him. This is a distinction not found in Catholicism. And of course there's the issue of the filoque, where Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, while the Orthodox believe that it proceeds from the Father. This has led to many other discussions, including some modifying the former statement to procession from the Father through the Son. So yes, Catholics and Orthodox both believe in a Trinitarian God, but there is still a difference in understanding God in many aspects.

I am well aware of the LDS position of God, as well as exaltation. I agree that theosis doesn't equal exaltation, however we can see some similarities in theology, especially when considering that the Orthodox don't necessarily agree with Catholics on this issue either. I do agree that the theology of God in the Orthodox Church isn't compatible w/ the LDS understanding, however that is also part of the research that I've been doing for a period of time. Which view of God is the original Christian view? Is the LDS God the restored understanding? These are more questions that I have asked and am still learning views on today.

As far as Orthodox vs. LDS, I've been doing research on the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, and more recently the Church of JC of LDS, for a number of years, and my own conclusion is that the Orthodox Church has more of a claim to continuing ancient Christian beliefs than the Catholic Church. Obviously some will disagree with that. My new question now is whether the LDS Church is a restoration of the original Christian Church (aka is it restoring Christian beliefs that are more ancient than those of the Orthodox Church), or whether the Orthodox Church IS continuing those original Christian beliefs. I think that LDS would agree that the Orthodox Church does have very old beliefs and continues many old Traditions, however it is their view that many of these beliefs stem from after the apostasy and therefore are not what the first Christians believed, no matter how old those beliefs are anyway.

Oh and the Book of Abraham IS part of the Pearl of Great Price.

[jerryp48]

Keeping it simple, the traditional belief is God is one-in-three whereas LDS view God as three-AS-one. Having studied both I can gleam both perspectives in the scriptures.

[saemo]

God will lead you where you need to be, all you have to do is ask. I only encourage you to make yourself as informed as possible.

If you are looking for what Christians believed, look to the NT, and the anti-Nicene Fathers. You are focusing on "authority", which has an Orthodox/Catholic root for you, I see that. I understand the difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, I just don't believe the differences are as stark as you believe they are. We are all catholic.

I suggest you also look for the continuity of Faith, particularly the Holy Sacraments. And more particularly, the Real Presence. Something that is clearly documented in the early Church, and something the LDS Church does not believe.

ps: I know the PoGP contains the Book of Abrahams. That was a typo.