Orthodox Church Or Lds Church

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Thanks for your views. I have researched The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on both sides. I've read both pro-Mormon and anti-Mormon material. The funny thing is, you can sometimes find the anti-Mormon material on the same website as anti-Catholic information. I would not go to an anti-Catholic website to find out what Catholics "really" believe. On these sites I can read about how Catholics worship Mary, worship statues/idols, how the Pope is really the anti-Christ because of the upside down cross on his chair, etc. etc. From being a Catholic for about 20 years, I can say that these portrayals are utterly false. So no thanks, I won't go to a non-LDS source to find out what LDS "really teaches".

Yes, Orthodox Christianity and Mormon Christianity have differing views on who/what God is. That doesn't make my decision b/w Orthodoxy and Mormonism illogical. It means that I need to do more reading into which belief is supported by not only the Bible (sola scriptura is ridiculous and definitely not historical), but extra-Biblical sources as well. Just because the traditional view of the Trinity was around for a longer time period doesn't mean it is the actual belief. We can trace Gnostic viewpoints back to early Christian times. Why don't we believe in those theologies? Some would even say that they are supported in the Bible.

Yes the Catholic Church requires rebaptism if a LDS joins the Catholic Church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints requires rebaptism if a Catholic or anyone for that matter joins it. So that point is moot. Orthodox, Catholic, etc. sacraments are also invalid according to the LDS Church, b/c they don't have the priesthood authority.

Yes I'm aware of the substitution of water for wine, and the non-belief in the Real Presence. I've extensively read about the LDS movement, so your "revelations" aren't that new to me.

Bibletruth has been pwned!

I would do the same myself...go to the source to learn more things...Let me tell you, you are doing the right thing Learning Guy. Continue to search out for the truth, and you will find it for yourself.

[LearningGuy]

yes I've definitely been doing my reading on the LDS faith. I've been interested in it (though probably just vaguely @ the beginning) for about 6 years (my Book of Mormon is dated 3/21/02), so I definitely know the basics of the religion. I don't fall for people like bibletruth because like I said, I've seen the same tactics used against Catholicism, where someone would try to point out (to us!) what we "really" believed. I love seeing those propaganda websites that have "the truth" about Mormons or Catholics on them, when it's so obvious that much of it is based on gross misunderstandings.

[Rommelator]

I don't fall for people like bibletruth because like I said, I've seen the same tactics used against Catholicism, where someone would try to point out (to us!) what we "really" believed. I love seeing those propaganda websites that have "the truth" about Mormons or Catholics on them, when it's so obvious that much of it is based on gross misunderstandings.

Amen. Even though I am not a Catholic, I can sympathize with you, LearningGuy, since, as you well know, I have been through the same kind of thing. It is really sad, don't you think, that somebody could be pretentious enough to tell someone what they believe?

[Bibletruth]

yes I've definitely been doing my reading on the LDS faith. I've been interested in it (though probably just vaguely @ the beginning) for about 6 years (my Book of Mormon is dated 3/21/02), so I definitely know the basics of the religion. I don't fall for people like bibletruth because like I said, I've seen the same tactics used against Catholicism, where someone would try to point out (to us!) what we "really" believed. I love seeing those propaganda websites that have "the truth" about Mormons or Catholics on them, when it's so obvious that much of it is based on gross misunderstandings.

You don't "fall" for people like Bibletruth who tells you what Mormons believe. You'd rather pretend that Mormonism is found in your Book of Mormon dated 3/21/02, and claim that you've been studying Mormonism all these years. If you think Mormonism's doctrines of God and doctrines of man are found in the Book of Mormon, than you are either a very deceived individual or are fabricating this whole thing in order to appear like a Catholic who is interested in Mormonism.

I don't buy into a Catholic who claims he might become Eastern Orthodox (which is similar to Catholic) or he just might become a Mormon (thus jettisoning the whole Catholic/Orthodox faith). It doesn't compute at all. It's like saying, "I'm at Catholic who is interested in Orthodoxy, and I also might become a Jehovah's Witness, a Hare Krishna, or a Christian Scientist.

I don't think you are Catholic at all in the true sense of the word. If you were, you'd understand heresy and the ramifications of denying the Holy Spirit.

[Rommelator]

You don't "fall" for people like Bibletruth who tells you what Mormons believe. You'd rather pretend that Mormonism is found in your Book of Mormon dated 3/21/02, and claim that you've been studying Mormonism all these years. If you think Mormonism's doctrines of God and doctrines of man are found in the Book of Mormon, than you are either a very deceived individual or are fabricating this whole thing in order to appear like a Catholic who is interested in Mormonism.

I don't buy into a Catholic who claims he might become Eastern Orthodox (which is similar to Catholic) or he just might become a Mormon (thus jettisoning the whole Catholic/Orthodox faith). It doesn't compute at all. It's like saying, "I'm at Catholic who is interested in Orthodoxy, and I also might become a Jehovah's Witness, a Hare Krishna, or a Christian Scientist.

I don't think you are Catholic at all in the true sense of the word. If you were, you'd understand heresy and the ramifications of denying the Holy Spirit.

And thus we see that the pretensions of Bibletruth knows no bounds. Astounding. And you expect me to believe you are a Christian© in any real sense of the word?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't think you are Catholic at all in the true sense of the word. If you were, you'd understand heresy and the ramifications of denying the Holy Spirit.

And this is one comming from a catholic??? Lol this is all to ironic. You just keep talking as you help people right into either church and further from your own.

[LearningGuy]

And this is one comming from a catholic??? Lol this is all to ironic. You just keep talking as you help people right into either church and further from your own.

haha I'm pretty sure he's not Catholic. I've been interested in apologetics and religion for a long time, and spending time on Beliefnet, Catholic Answers, etc in the past has shown me that Bibletruth falls into a recognizable mold, where they will always reference the same anti-Catholic/anti-LDS websites, say that we're delusional about our beliefs, keep the "true beliefs" secret, don't know the "real Jesus", worship a "false Jesus" or believe in a "false Gospel", our religion is "another gospel", etc. It's really quite interesting.

I still think it's funny how he can't grasp that it's not illogical for a person to try to decide between two different faiths, with the premise being that either one is true (or both are false!), and that is what an investigator is trying to determine. Whatever. I'll try and attend a sacrament meeting this Sunday or next and move from simply reading to finally experiencing.

[jwhitlock]

I don't think you are Catholic at all in the true sense of the word. If you were, you'd understand heresy and the ramifications of denying the Holy Spirit.

Hell hath no fury like an anti-Mormon who's been discovered.

Well, actually, they're quite closely related.

And I think that LG has actually recognized quite a bit of heresy from your posts, BT.

[GingerRed]

Atta boy, LearningGuy!! You GO dude! I think you will enjoy the Sacrament meeting. I still remember like yesterday my very first time going to one...was very pleasent and I got to meet other singles my age at the time who befriended me and I made life long friendships with them. When they say you are 'loved' into this church, they ain't kidding!

Score: LearingGuy: 30 .... Bibletruth : zippo! ....come on Bibletruth, is that the best you can throw at him? LOL

[ebeddoulos]

I don't buy into a Catholic who claims he might become Eastern Orthodox (which is similar to Catholic) or he just might become a Mormon (thus jettisoning the whole Catholic/Orthodox faith). It doesn't compute at all. It's like saying, "I'm at Catholic who is interested in Orthodoxy, and I also might become a Jehovah's Witness, a Hare Krishna, or a Christian Scientist.

I don't think you are Catholic at all in the true sense of the word. If you were, you'd understand heresy and the ramifications of denying the Holy Spirit.

Interesting use of the No True Scottsman Fallacy. I wonder if you even recognized it when you typed it.

[Deborah]

But it seems to me that what you really need to consider is your relationship with Jesus Christ.

I have a very close relationship with Jesus Christ, the one of the Bible. I know that he is my Savior and that he loves me and is aware of all my weaknesses and all my trials and that he suffered in Gethsemane and died on the cross for me and all mankind-that we might return to our Heavenly Father. I know that Christ loves all mankind even those who don't really understand who he is and what he sacrificed for them. I think he is very sad to see what some people do in his name and how they put the beliefs of others down in his name. My testimony of Christ has grown as I study the Bible and the Book of Mormon and the other words of the prophet Joseph Smith. I think it is very sinful to accuse someone else of not having a relationship with Christ simply because their understanding of him does not conform to their own.

[Orpheus]

Oh, really? Answer these objections to Mormonism's belief in an infinite regression of exalted deities:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/c...nl/crj0100a.txt

Stop plastering links and cut & paste. If you can't say it yourself we aren't interested. You are getting too many complaints for your attitude so fix it or you won't be here much longer.

[GingerRed]

Exactly, Deborah!

Our 11th Article Of Faith: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Obviously, Bibleturth's religion, whatever the heck it is, doesn't HAVE this Christ-like attitude ....I, too, think it's a sin to belittle, bash and demonize someones else's beliefs. ( thou shall not bear false witness....) You have not seen, nor ever will see...a Mormon standing at anothers religious gathering, with signs and shouting that those of another religion willl burn in hell, just because they don't beleive the same thing you do! Talk about "heresy and the ramifications of denying the Holy Spirit."....!! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Tell me something Bibletruth....just when did this 'life-calling' of bashing Mormons begin with you? And just what do you hope to accomplish here?? Have you no life?? Have you nothing better to do than rag on others beliefs?? Hasn't it dawned on you yet that you've lost the battle here or are you really THAT blind?

Honestly, you anti's totally baffle me! I just can't fathom WHY the LDS church BOTHERS you so?? You don't share our beliefs, so what?? What's the big deal? Live and let live! Stop letting Satan into your hearts and leave people be!

Okay.....**whew**...I'm done with my rant...I know it will fall on deaf ears, but I just had to say it anyway....

(And by the way, Learning Guy I'm glad you have the ability to see right through people like Bibletruth....he digs his own grave....)

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Despair.com...

(Picture that shows nails bent out of shape on top of wood)

INCOMPETENCE

"If you make up for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do"

This describes Bibletruth to the letter...trying to dissuade LearningGuy...

[Daniel Peterson]

If you go to one of our sacrament services, be aware that they're very, very simple. No pageantry, no professionally trained preacher, no pomp.

But remember that early Christian services were probably much the same. Did they use candles? Yes, but probably only because candles were the best indoor lighting they could get.

[ed2276]

This is my Body. This is my Blood.

as opposed to

This symbolically represents my Body. This symbolically represents my Blood.

"How can this Man, give us His Flesh to eat?"

Which conclusion, of course, you arrive at by cherry-picking the scriptures, applying the interpretations of man, and ignoring Luke's account:

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

And where Paul repeats that it was not only to be done in remembrance of his body in relation to the bread, but in remembrance of His sacrificial spilt blood in relation to the wine:

1Cr 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Cr 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.

Those who teach clerical celibacy do the same cherry-picking, misinterpreting Paul's statements on marriage in one place in support of the doctrine of celibacy, while completely ignoring Paul's unconditional directives that for Bishops and Deacons to qualify for those offices they "must be the husband of one wife", as a man who does not know how to care for his own wife and children does not know how to care for the church.

[ed2276]

The essence of God in Mormonism is man. A human who was one like every man you meet on the street but who is now exalted.

You mean, like Jesus? The fully God and yet fully Man, made in all things like His brethren, who walked the streets of Jerusalem and was glorified, as God, after He returned to Heaven following His resurrection?

Still, your assertions to learningguy about LDS belief reflect the usual level of ignorance about LDS doctrine we see here.

Mormons believe that there are many gods, this is found in their scriptures in the Book of Abraham, in their Pearl of Great Price.

It is also found in the Old Testament and New Testament. "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

You really should do your research. And start by first, understanding the definitions that the LDS Church has applied to Christian terms.

And by understanding that the definitions that people like saemo apply to LDS belief are mischaracterizations of what LDS actually believe; so, instead of relying on saemo's nonsense, I hope you will ask LDS what it is that they actually believe about these and other matters.

[ed2276]

Thanks for your views. As far as Catholic vs. Orthodox on theology of God, yes, they are both Trinitarian in the usual sense of that word. However, there IS a difference in understanding God within that Trinitarian viewpoint. Catholics tend to emphasize what God IS, whereas Orthodox tend to start from a viewpoint of what God is NOT. Like I said above, Orthodox make a distinction between the energies and essence of God, in that the essence of God is distinct from the energies of God (how God acts). It is the energies of God that allow us to experience Him. This is a distinction not found in Catholicism. And of course there's the issue of the filoque, where Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, while the Orthodox believe that it proceeds from the Father. This has led to many other discussions, including some modifying the former statement to procession from the Father through the Son. So yes, Catholics and Orthodox both believe in a Trinitarian God, but there is still a difference in understanding God in many aspects.

I am well aware of the LDS position of God, as well as exaltation. I agree that theosis doesn't equal exaltation, however we can see some similarities in theology, especially when considering that the Orthodox don't necessarily agree with Catholics on this issue either. I do agree that the theology of God in the Orthodox Church isn't compatible w/ the LDS understanding, however that is also part of the research that I've been doing for a period of time. Which view of God is the original Christian view? Is the LDS God the restored understanding? These are more questions that I have asked and am still learning views on today.

As far as Orthodox vs. LDS, I've been doing research on the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, and more recently the Church of JC of LDS, for a number of years, and my own conclusion is that the Orthodox Church has more of a claim to continuing ancient Christian beliefs than the Catholic Church. Obviously some will disagree with that. My new question now is whether the LDS Church is a restoration of the original Christian Church (aka is it restoring Christian beliefs that are more ancient than those of the Orthodox Church), or whether the Orthodox Church IS continuing those original Christian beliefs. I think that LDS would agree that the Orthodox Church does have very old beliefs and continues many old Traditions, however it is their view that many of these beliefs stem from after the apostasy and therefore are not what the first Christians believed, no matter how old those beliefs are anyway.

Oh and the Book of Abraham IS part of the Pearl of Great Price.

I would recommmend that as you continue your research on just what was "original" Jewish OT and Christian NT--and beyond-- understanding of God by reading the books of Margaret Barker (a Methodist). She makes a case for an original OT and NT text which show Jewish temple worship, angels, anscensions, and heavenly court imagery with sons of god, who were presiding gods over the nations.

I would have recommended that you just concentrate on the central truth of Jesus Christ as our Lord, Saviour, and Redeemer, and His Gospel message, but you already seem to be well past that point, given all the research you are doing into doctrinal comparisons and such.

[ed2276]

Lehi, some disciples turned away as well, because they could not accept what Jesus was telling them

They turned away because they misunderstood what Jesus was telling them. They thought, as you believe, that he was telling them that his flesh and blood really were in the emblems of the sacrament. In otherwords, they, like you above, screamed "We are not cannibals!" and they left.

Just as they could not understand the parables, they could not understand that Jesus was not in fact telling them to eat his actual flesh and drink his actual blood, but to do as Luke and Paul recorded Jesus telling his disciples to do; that is, to eat and drink in remembrance of his body and his blood which were offered a sacrifice for sin.

[ed2276]

They are totally incompatible with Christianity, not just Orthodox or Catholic Christianity, but the most basic forms of Christianity.

The most basic forms of Christianity? There is Orthodox Christianity. There is Catholic Christianity; AND then there is BASIC Christianity?

What a macaroon!!!

[ed2276]

I am addressing the debate, which is, the Mormon position that God is neither infinite or eternal. You believe He is created.

Wrong! You are misstating the debate. The Mormon position is not that God is neither infinite or eternal, or that He is created. Debate the actual Mormon positions, not your strawman of the Mormon position, please.

I understand you believe that creation is from existing material, which presents more problems (and I believe another topic).

Yes. But that says nothing about the eternal or infinite nature of God, as we believe that intelligence is uncreate, eternal and infinite.

That is not my debate. Mine is, that it is not Biblical. And in the context of the OP (Orthodox), it is outside of Sacred Tradition as well.

To begin with, then, we can throw out any consideration of the Sacred Tradition, as this is extrabiblical. If you want to tie our hands with respect to our understanding the Bible based on sources outside the Bible then it is only fair that your hands are tied with the same rope.

Secondly, without exception that I can remember, LDS present their reasons for believing as they do from the Bible itself. Therefore, our positions can certainly be considered biblical. You only consider them unbiblical because in your reading of the Bible you inject your own personal beliefs about what the Bible is saying, and that based on extrabiblical teachings and councils.

Have you ever considered that your understanding of what the Bible reveals is incorrect? The Sacred Tradtions and the Councils, which are extrabiblical, are wrong?

If what the LDS believe the Bible reveals is correct, then our understanding is Biblical; which then would flip the situation around and make your beliefs and understanding unbiblical.

[ed2276]

I don't think you are Catholic at all in the true sense of the word. If you were, you'd understand heresy and the ramifications of denying the Holy Spirit.

This keeps getting better and better!!!

If learningguy is Catholic at all he'd understand that Protestantism is heresy, Bibletruth. What does that make you?

[Tanyan]

As I have Loved you, Love one another, by this shall men know ye are my Disciples if ye have Love one for another.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[thesometimesaint]

One day the Pope was walking through the Vatican library. When he noticed the old librarian crying over what appeared to be some very old copies of the Bible. The Pope being a compassionate man asked what had the librarian so upset. The librarian said "It says celebrate".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

haha I'm pretty sure he's not Catholic.

Which was the point of my post.

Have a great time at church, and I hope your learn tons either way.