Historicity Of Bom

[Gervin]

This is vintage Yme.

Drop a few unsustainable lines, mock a little, then, once thoroughly refuted, scamper away. Then he'll return in a few days, rejoin the thread posting about how he has a "life," thus indicating that you don't, he'll make cracks about your post count in a splendidly "holier-than-thou" attitude, and ultimately neglect responding to the actual issue at hand.

for any and all who communicate on the board with Yme, please read the Nutritional Facts before engaging him to make sure they fit within the parameters of your balanced intellectual diet.

Be careful, LOAP, or someone might accuse you of breaking a board guideline ("Do not engage in jeering or mockery of the Latter-day Saints or participants on this board."). No LDS, I'm sure .... but someone.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I must have missed the thoroughly refuted part. Where was that now?

Tarsi, long time no see. Read the thread again. One example involves his assertion that the reliability, accuracy, or importance of an argument is dependent upon its reception by other "scholars".

Can you demonstrate a point Yme has raised in this thread that has not adequately been answered? Please, point it out that we might examine it. (And maybe give it our scholarly stamp of approval!)

[LifeOnaPlate]

Be careful, LOAP, or someone might accuse you of breaking a board guideline ("Do not engage in jeering or mockery of the Latter-day Saints or participants on this board."). No LDS, I'm sure .... but someone.

If you don't like it, report it. I think it's pretty *accurate.

Also, can you show that Yme has not engaged in any of the listed logical fallacies? Please, feel free to do so.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I'm getting that crickets chirping .mp3 ready again, fellas.

[Gervin]

If you don't like it, report it. I think it's pretty *accurate.

Also, can you show that Yme has not engaged in any of the listed logical fallacies? Please, feel free to do so.

Don't "do" reporting and don't want to take up Yme's cause because I've not followed his issues on this thread. Actually, the most enjoyable thing about this thread is the obsession over Yme's attendance. I liken it to puppy love. Continue.

[Luigi]

Yme?

Dr. Peterson? Wisconsin horse?

So I've written to a friend who is more current on the horse issue than I am at the moment, to see what he has to say.

If a piece of evidence that I cited turns out to be unreliable, I will cheerfully acknowledge it. If it doesn't, however, I won't.

I've given you three months, I hardly see how it's very fair of you to harp on Yme for not responding after a few hours or even days.

[Daniel Peterson]

Dr. Peterson? Wisconsin horse?

I've given you three months, I hardly see how it's very fair of you to harp on Yme for not responding after a few hours or even days.

I've put the question to my friend at least three times. He's the one who follows this, not I.

He hasn't responded. I don't know why.

I'm happy to write to him again, and I'll do so. Frankly, I haven't thought about horses at all for quite a while, and the topic slipped my mind.

In the meantime, there is no obstacle whatever to Yme expressing his opinion here. No library research is required, no expertise is necessary, no special information need be ferreted out.

Yme?

[Yme]

Don't "do" reporting and don't want to take up Yme's cause because I've not followed his issues on this thread. Actually, the most enjoyable thing about this thread is the obsession over Yme's attendance. I liken it to puppy love. Continue.

WOW! I would have never thought, until all the personal messages I have received, that I had gotten under the skin of Lds apologists or, as it seems to be, BYU professors who have no teaching responsibilities with the same pay for posting here!!!!

First let me say, Daniel, - with all the baiting you have done, can you ever appreciate that some of us in life have a fraction of a life outside of this board? Perhaps a small difference between you and I (and most certainly LOAP!!). My personal career, family life, and interests do not pay to be on this board as much as it may you! So forgive me for not responding to your countless call sooner, that I now have observed. Also, my ego is obviously not fed by this board as it seems to be for ---- well let's just say for others with thousands of posts here!!!

But let me just suggest a couple of things here. First, why spend your weekends here when you could be doing what I and others enjoy such much as, for example: biking, golfing, skiing, outdoor activities, or even sharing a fine dinner and a great bottle of wine with the one you love. Just a thought, though recognizing the limitations of Provo.

But after looking over this thread since I last posted, there is really nothing of any credible content that would cause, IMHO, anyone to respond to.

And if your really wondering about Coe's response being published in "Dialogue", as opposed to a professional Mayan journal, then I really would be questioning what you profess to be "educational judgment". Why would Coe ever respond in a professional journal where the original work would never be accepted in the first place???? Who there would have ever seen it??? Seriously, you now begin to support that ill-oft used saying: "Those who can do, those who can't teach"! Coe knew that only those who followed, what seems to be, an emotional need to demonstrate the history of the BOM as proposed by Lds authors, would only see his response in something related to an Lds publication. But if you really thought that Coe's publication in Dialogue, as an expert in Mayan studies of history and archaeology, demonstrates a parallel with Sorenson and Clark for not getting in a major secular publication (on this topic), tell me this: Are Coes works that were published in Dialogue worthy of FARMS standards to be published there???????????? Would Farms publish them today? If not why? (This is where Peterson will never answer as it will ketch him in the catch 22 he was trying to get me in!!!!) I could post : "Daniel ?" for days here as he has done with me, but he will not answer it directly!!

But here is the reality of the Lds scholars works on BOM historicity: Such works have not and will not convince even BYU that it can be taught as "history" in an accredited history program. Ask Mr. Hamblin!

Carry on with the making of my celebrity, or, with the validation of the reality of such pastimes here!!!!

[Pahoran]

WOW! I would have never thought, until all the personal messages I have received, that I had gotten under the skin of Lds apologists or, as it seems to be, BYU professors who have no teaching responsibilities with the same pay for posting here!!!!

First let me say, Daniel, - with all the baiting you have done, can you ever appreciate that some of us in life have a fraction of a life outside of this board? Perhaps a small difference between you and I (and most certainly LOAP!!). My personal career, family life, and interests do not pay to be on this board as much as it may you! So forgive me for not responding to your countless call sooner, that I now have observed. Also, my ego is obviously not fed by this board as it seems to be for ---- well let's just say for others with thousands of posts here!!!

But let me just suggest a couple of things here. First, why spend your weekends here when you could be doing what I and others enjoy such much as, for example: biking, golfing, skiing, outdoor activities, or even sharing a fine dinner and a great bottle of wine with the one you love. Just a thought, though recognizing the limitations of Provo.

But after looking over this thread since I last posted, there is really nothing of any credible content that would cause, IMHO, anyone to respond to.

And if your really wondering about Coe's response being published in "Dialogue", as opposed to a professional Mayan journal, then I really would be questioning what you profess to be "educational judgment". Why would Coe ever respond in a professional journal where the original work would never be accepted in the first place???? Who there would have ever seen it??? Seriously, you now begin to support that ill-oft used saying: "Those who can do, those who can't teach"! Coe knew that only those who followed, what seems to be, an emotional need to demonstrate the history of the BOM as proposed by Lds authors, would only see his response in something related to an Lds publication. But if you really thought that Coe's publication in Dialogue, as an expert in Mayan studies of history and archaeology, demonstrates a parallel with Sorenson and Clark for not getting in a major secular publication (on this topic), tell me this: Are Coes works that were published in Dialogue worthy of FARMS standards to be published there???????????? Would Farms publish them today? If not why? (This is where Peterson will never answer as it will ketch him in the catch 22 he was trying to get me in!!!!) I could post : "Daniel ?" for days here as he has done with me, but he will not answer it directly!!

But here is the reality of the Lds scholars works on BOM historicity: Such works have not and will not convince even BYU that it can be taught as "history" in an accredited history program. Ask Mr. Hamblin!

Carry on with the making of my celebrity, or, with the validation of the reality of such pastimes here!!!!

Yme,

as a very dear friend pointed out to me just recently, "hit pigeons flutter." Which is what I think of when I read your utterly baseless and snide insinuations about Dan being paid to post here. That is a complete load of organic fertiliser, and it originates with you.

As for the rest: I would think it distinctly odd for BYU to be offering as a history program--history being a secular subject that is normally cross-credited between institutions--a course based on a volume that is not generally accepted as secular history, and indeed given its provenance, could not be. I have to wonder what you could possibly be thinking by that, and then I remember:

Vox populi, vox doofus.

Regards,

Pahoran

[cdowis]

I think this thread is getting personal on both sides.

Perhaps time to move on to other things.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Don't "do" reporting and don't want to take up Yme's cause because I've not followed his issues on this thread. Actually, the most enjoyable thing about this thread is the obsession over Yme's attendance. I liken it to puppy love. Continue.

Not following issues, but posting nonetheless? Thanks for the admission, Gervin. I've suspected it for a while, but now have your open confirmation.

[LifeOnaPlate]

WOW! I would have never thought, until all the personal messages I have received, that I had gotten under the skin of Lds apologists or, as it seems to be, BYU professors who have no teaching responsibilities with the same pay for posting here!!!!

First let me say, Daniel, - with all the baiting you have done, can you ever appreciate that some of us in life have a fraction of a life outside of this board? Perhaps a small difference between you and I (and most certainly LOAP!!). My personal career, family life, and interests do not pay to be on this board as much as it may you! So forgive me for not responding to your countless call sooner, that I now have observed. Also, my ego is obviously not fed by this board as it seems to be for ---- well let's just say for others with thousands of posts here!!!

But let me just suggest a couple of things here. First, why spend your weekends here when you could be doing what I and others enjoy such much as, for example: biking, golfing, skiing, outdoor activities, or even sharing a fine dinner and a great bottle of wine with the one you love. Just a thought, though recognizing the limitations of Provo.

But after looking over this thread since I last posted, there is really nothing of any credible content that would cause, IMHO, anyone to respond to.

And if your really wondering about Coe's response being published in "Dialogue", as opposed to a professional Mayan journal, then I really would be questioning what you profess to be "educational judgment". Why would Coe ever respond in a professional journal where the original work would never be accepted in the first place???? Who there would have ever seen it??? Seriously, you now begin to support that ill-oft used saying: "Those who can do, those who can't teach"! Coe knew that only those who followed, what seems to be, an emotional need to demonstrate the history of the BOM as proposed by Lds authors, would only see his response in something related to an Lds publication. But if you really thought that Coe's publication in Dialogue, as an expert in Mayan studies of history and archaeology, demonstrates a parallel with Sorenson and Clark for not getting in a major secular publication (on this topic), tell me this: Are Coes works that were published in Dialogue worthy of FARMS standards to be published there???????????? Would Farms publish them today? If not why? (This is where Peterson will never answer as it will ketch him in the catch 22 he was trying to get me in!!!!) I could post : "Daniel ?" for days here as he has done with me, but he will not answer it directly!!

But here is the reality of the Lds scholars works on BOM historicity: Such works have not and will not convince even BYU that it can be taught as "history" in an accredited history program. Ask Mr. Hamblin!

Carry on with the making of my celebrity, or, with the validation of the reality of such pastimes here!!!!

Holy smokes, I couldn't have asked for a more clear example of my prediction.

This is vintage Yme.

Drop a few unsustainable lines, mock a little, then, once thoroughly refuted, scamper away.

Check.

Then he'll return in a few days, rejoin the thread posting about how he has a "life,"

Check.

thus indicating that you don't,

Check.

he'll make cracks about your post count

Or time spent on the board. Close enough for a check.

in a splendidly "holier-than-thou" attitude,

Most definitely a check.

and ultimately neglect responding to the actual issue at hand.

100%.

[Daniel Peterson]

WOW! I would have never thought, until all the personal messages I have received, that I had gotten under the skin of Lds apologists or, as it seems to be, BYU professors who have no teaching responsibilities with the same pay for posting here!!!!

Whose skin have you managed to get under, Yme? Not mine. I think your claims and antics are amusing.

And who are these "BYU professors who have no teaching responsiblities with the same pay"? Where can I apply for this cushy job?

First let me say, Daniel, - with all the baiting you have done, can you ever appreciate that some of us in life have a fraction of a life outside of this board?

Right on schedule! LOAP is a prophet.

The fact is, of course, that you've been on the board several times over the past few days. You simply haven't been willing to defend your absurd claim that the quality of an article or an argument is to be determined not by the cogency of its reasoning and the soundness of its evidence but by whether (and how many) people of a certain type have read it.

Perhaps a small difference between you and I (and most certainly LOAP!!). My personal career, family life, and interests do not pay to be on this board as much as it may you!

You mean you don't get paid $150.00 per post, the way I do?

But let me just suggest a couple of things here. First, why spend your weekends here when you could be doing what I and others enjoy such much as, for example: biking, golfing, skiing, outdoor activities, or even sharing a fine dinner and a great bottle of wine with the one you love. Just a thought, though recognizing the limitations of Provo.

Dang. You're right. Utah Valley: No roads or trails, no golf courses, no mountains, no restaurants, no booze emporiums. Nothing to do at all.

Are Coes works that were published in Dialogue worthy of FARMS standards to be published there????????????

In terms of academic standards, yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Michael Coe is a significant scholar, knows his material, and writes well.

But he has plenty of places to publish his thoughts on Mormon matters, including Dialogue. FARMS was created to create a publishing venue for articles and books that, until its founding, had no natural home.

Would Farms publish them today?

Conceivably. We've published articles critical of Mormon belief by Paul Owen, Carl Mosser, Michael Heiser, etc.

But, for the reason alluded to above, there's no pressing need for FARMS to publish them.

If not why? (This is where Peterson will never answer as it will ketch him in the catch 22 he was trying to get me in!!!!) I could post : "Daniel ?" for days here as he has done with me, but he will not answer it directly!!

LOAP is clearly a better prophet than Yme.

But here is the reality of the Lds scholars works on BOM historicity: Such works have not and will not convince even BYU that it can be taught as "history" in an accredited history program. Ask Mr. Hamblin!

That's "Dr. Hamblin," to you.

You make a huge assumption -- as usual without adducing any actual evidence on its behalf. Do you seriously mean to suggest that the faculty and administration at BYU secretly disbelieve in the Book of Mormon?

I find only one history course in the current BYU catalog that could, conceivably, devote much time to pre-Columbian America -- "357. The Indian in Latin American History. (3:3:0)" -- and I can't say whether it discusses the Book of Mormon or not. Can you?

The relevant courses are, overwhelmingly, taught in the Department of Anthropology. I don't know whether the Book of Mormon is ever discussed in "317. Native Peoples of North America. (3:3:0)" or in "350. Archaeological Cultures of North America. (3:3:0)," "355. Mesoamerican Archaeology. (3:2:Arr.)," "365. South American Archaeology. (3:3:0)," "372. Ancient Mayan Writing 1. (3:3:0)," "374. Ancient Mayan Writing 2. (3:3:0)," "562. Formative Mesoamerica. (3:3:0)," "564. Classic Mayan Civilization. (3:3:0)," "565. Mayan Ceramic Analysis. (3:3:0)," "566. Mayan Ethnohistory. (3:3:0)," "572. Ancient Mayan Writing 1. (3:3:0)," or "574. Ancient Mayan Writing 2. (3:3:0)."

Do you know?

Since I'm familiar with several of the faculty involved and have a sense for the students at BYU, I would be enormously surprised if the Book of Mormon were not discussed in those classes. (John Clark's public lecture last night was mostly a non-Mormon-specific discussion of the rise of New World civilization, with the usual data on ceramics, trade patterns, cultural evolution, and the like, but concluded with a substantial section on the Book of Mormon.) But I can just about guarantee that "[Anthropology] 280. Archaeology and the Scriptures. (3:3:0)" does discuss it: "The Bible and the Book of Mormon compared with archaeological findings on early civilizations."

[Yme]

Whose skin have you managed to get under, Yme? Not mine.

Those who contacted me seem to think different. Just reporting what I heard.

I think your claims and antics are amusing.

Well, I think far more seem to think the same of yours.

And who are these "BYU professors who have no teaching responsiblities with the same pay"? Where can I apply for this cushy job?

What classes are you teaching this semester?

The fact is, of course, that you've been on the board several times over the past few days.

Nice to know I have my own personal stalker!!

In terms of academic standards, yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Michael Coe is a significant scholar, knows his material, and writes well.

But he has plenty of places to publish his thoughts on Mormon matters, including Dialogue. FARMS was created to create a publishing venue for articles and books that, until its founding, had no natural home.

What is the definition of a "natural home" and why wouldn't Coe's article qualify, side be side with that of Sorenson's, to be printed at FARMS? He is a well recognized scholar, printed an article on the claimed ancient setting of the BOM, has read the BOM and is an expert in the supposed Mayan civilizations?

LOAP is clearly a better prophet than Yme.

For his/her sake I hope so. If this is the place where prophets spend most of their time, he is in the right place!

Do you seriously mean to suggest that the faculty and administration at BYU secretly disbelieve in the Book of Mormon?

Absolutely, for some of them. I have no doubt based on discussions with in laws and members of my wife's ward there are many Lds who don't believe in the existence of the history that is claimed in the BOM. I am sure there are many at BYU who do not believe it either. But, as we have seen so many times in the past, when one's employment is at stake, best to keep such beliefs silent until retirement or a new line of work.

I find only one history course in the current BYU catalog that could, conceivably, devote much time to pre-Columbian America -- "357. The Indian in Latin American History. (3:3:0)" -- and I can't say whether it discusses the Book of Mormon or not. Can you?

The relevant courses are, overwhelmingly, taught in the Department of Anthropology. I don't know whether the Book of Mormon is ever discussed in "317. Native Peoples of North America. (3:3:0)" or in "350. Archaeological Cultures of North America. (3:3:0)," "355. Mesoamerican Archaeology. (3:2:Arr.)," "365. South American Archaeology. (3:3:0)," "372. Ancient Mayan Writing 1. (3:3:0)," "374. Ancient Mayan Writing 2. (3:3:0)," "562. Formative Mesoamerica. (3:3:0)," "564. Classic Mayan Civilization. (3:3:0)," "565. Mayan Ceramic Analysis. (3:3:0)," "566. Mayan Ethnohistory. (3:3:0)," "572. Ancient Mayan Writing 1. (3:3:0)," or "574. Ancient Mayan Writing 2. (3:3:0)."

And which one of these classes provide the text book that specifically discuss the events of Zarahemla, the argricultural and trade history up and down the river Sidon or the the migration and settlement patterns of the Lamanites, Jaradites, Nephites and their journey from the middle east in settlement here on this continent?

Why keep playing the same ol red herring?

Have the works of any Lds scholars provided enough credible and/or convincing evidence, for the people places and cultures specifically mentioned in the BOM, that even the BYU History dept would devote an accredited history class to this "history"? Are you aware of any history text book used in any accredited academic history program in any college or university which mentions these places and peoples?

You and your endless insults are done here. ~ Mods

[Calm]

Nice to know I have my own personal stalker!!

I think you need to use another term. A stalker follows you around. OTOH, you're coming here to the board where Dr. Peterson has been already, not Dr. Peterson going someplace you are.

[Daniel Peterson]

Those who contacted me seem to think different. Just reporting what I heard.

I'm just reporting what I know. And, since the question involves my personal emotional state, I'm inclined to go with my own perceptions over your undocumented report of the anonymous opinions of an undisclosed number of your alleged contacts.

You really do seem to think that truth is determined by polling the uninformed!

What classes are you teaching this semester?

Given my responsibility for directing and editing the Middle Eastern Texts Initiative (my own current personal editing projects are Ibn Sina's massive Physics, from his encyclopedic multivolume al-Shifaaâ??, and the Dalaaâ??il al-Nubuwwa of Abu Hatim al-Razi and Fakhr al-Din al-Razi; our latest volume of the Medical Works of Moses Maimonides should come from the press within a week or two, and others are being edited under my direction), I have a reduced teaching load: This semester, I'm leading the senior seminar for Middle East Studies majors, MESA 495, along with some lecturing in Humanities 242 and some individual Arabic directed readings courses.

Why do you care?

What is the definition of a "natural home" and why wouldn't Coe's article qualify, side be side with that of Sorenson's, to be printed at FARMS? He is a well recognized scholar, printed an article on the claimed ancient setting of the BOM, has read the BOM and is an expert in the supposed Mayan civilizations?

Who said it wouldn't "qualify"? I didn't.

Absolutely, for some of them.

Your insinuation requires not merely that "some" at BYU disbelieve in the Book of Mormon, but that a critical decision-making mass of them disbelieve, so strongly as to have had a decisive impact on curriculum design and course construction.

To sustain that casual charge would require -- and I hesitate to mention this, since you consistently show such aversion to the concept -- some actual evidence.

And which one of these classes provide the text book that specifically discuss the events of Zarahemla, the argricultural and trade history up and down the river Sidon or the the migration and settlement patterns of the Lamanites, Jaradites, Nephites and their journey from the middle east in settlement here on this continent?

I don't know. Why don't you look for some facts for a change?

I don't plan to devote my life to tracking such things down on your behalf.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some of those courses used works by John Sorenson and perhaps others on precisely those subjects. You're familiar with this work, of course. Aren't you?

Have the works of any Lds scholars provided enough credible and/or convincing evidence, for the people places and cultures specifically mentioned in the BOM, that even the BYU History dept would devote an accredited history class to this "history"? Are you aware of any history text book used in any accredited academic history program in any college or university which mentions these places and peoples?

Why keep playing the same ol' red herring?

[LifeOnaPlate]

I think you need to use another term. A stalker follows you around. OTOH, you're coming here to the board where Dr. Peterson has been already, not Dr. Peterson going someplace you are.

Exactly. Note the dig, rather than the admission that Dr. Peterson was right to call Yme out on his excuse of "being too busy" when in reality he had visited the board several times.

[Daniel Peterson]

Why do you care?

Ah, now I understand. (I should have known.)

It appears that, over on another board, it's been revealed that I don't actually teach or do any real academic work, but that, instead, the Church delivers dump truck loads of cash to my doorstep for my work with FARMS and FAIR (!).

The credulous Yme apparently swallowed that revelation hook, line, and sinker. (It's par for the course for him: He tends to trust and to prefer the opinions of the uninformed. The quality of scholarship, for example, is best determined by speculating about hypothetical polling data drawn from surveys of people unfamiliar with it.)

Incidentally, I was named a fellow and a lifetime member of the Utah Academy of Sciences, Arts, and Letters last year -- the only person so designated in 2007, as far as I know. Presumably, that honor was for my posts here, since, it seems, I don't really do much of anything else.

[William Schryver]

DCP:

Incidentally, I was named a fellow and a lifetime member of the Utah Academy of Sciences, Arts, and Letters last year -- the only person so designated in 2007, as far as I know. Presumably, that honor was for my posts here, since, it seems, I don't really do much of anything else.

It's not that you don't do anything else. It's that you don't do anything else that matters.

And, of course, it's clear that anything else you do is tainted by what you do here.

But I hear it pays quite well . . .

[Bill Hamblin]

Ah, now I understand. (I should have known.)

It appears that, over on another board, it's been revealed that I don't actually teach or do any real academic work, but that, instead, the Church delivers dump truck loads of cash to my doorstep for my work with FARMS and FAIR (!).

The credulous Yme apparently swallowed that revelation hook, line, and sinker. (It's par for the course for him: He tends to trust and to prefer the opinions of the uninformed. The quality of scholarship, for example, is best determined by speculating about hypothetical polling data drawn from surveys of people unfamiliar with it.)

Incidentally, I was named a fellow and a lifetime member of the Utah Academy of Sciences, Arts, and Letters last year -- the only person so designated in 2007, as far as I know. Presumably, that honor was for my posts here, since, it seems, I don't really do much of anything else.

Dan, you are Brittany Spears to their paparazzi. Everything you do (and don't do) is a matter of cosmic fascination, and grounds for endless speculation. Such adulation must be overwhelming.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Dan, you are Brittany Spears to their paparazzi. Everything you do (and don't do) is a matter of cosmic fascination, and grounds for endless speculation. Such adulation must be overwhelming.

At first I believed this type of comment was hyperbole. Then I spent a little time in the "acres" and was really surprised at how often DCP is brought up.

[Daniel Peterson]

At first I believed this type of comment was hyperbole. Then I spent a little time in the "acres" and was really surprised at how often DCP is brought up.

The obsession strikes me as pretty weird, too.

I've given up trying to have a rational conversation with that gang, especially the obsessively malevolent ones. It's not worth attempting. Too much trouble, too exasperating.

[Daniel Peterson]

But I hear it pays quite well . . .

I just can't decide: Gold for my new bathroom fixtures, or platinum?

Any advice would be welcome.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I just can't decide: Gold for my new bathroom fixtures, or platinum?

Any advice would be welcome.

Make sure you get one of these.

[The_Monk]

as is Richard Hansen (though he got in some hot water for consulting on Apocalypto).

I'm related to Hansen by marriage, though I've only met him once at an extended family reunion, and then only briefly. According to my wife and the family grapevine, he was scheduled to give some Guatemalan government visitors a tour of the WTC on September 11th, but it was canceled a week ahead of time because their schedules had changed.