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Jeremiah In Prison - 1st Or 10th Year Of Zedekiah?


Reformed_Egyptian

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Hello,

I am wondering about an apparent discrepancy in the BOM that I've not been able to fully grasp.

I found this online: "According to I Nephi 1:4, Nephi and his family left Jerusalem in the first year of the reign of King Zedekiah . In I Nephi 7:14 we are told that Jeremiah is in prison. However, according to the Bible, Jeremiah was imprisoned in the TENTH year of King Zedekiah (Jeremiah 32:1-2). So... perhaps Nephi was referring to an event which happened AFTER he and his family left? This might explain the anachronism. But no, this is discounted in light of I Nephi 17:4, which is chronologically some time after the events of I Nephi 7:14."

I'm confused on this...how could Lehi / Nephi and family know about this event? I suppose they could have been inspired by the spirit to know what was going on back in the homeland...is that the answer?

I feel confused on even being able to articulate what the issue here is, but it just doesn't feel right...much I suppose like those who think I'm troll-ish when I'm really trying to figure things out.

My wife is devastated that I have doubts, I'm devastated at the amount of things that I can't get to 'add up' and at feeling confused as to why a true church has to lie, manipulate or change history in order for me to believe in it (my current view and sorrow)...if that's trollish, well, then I am...however I'd like to find at least some answers if I can.

Thanks.

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Hello,

I am wondering about an apparent discrepancy in the BOM that I've not been able to fully grasp.

I found this online: "According to I Nephi 1:4, Nephi and his family left Jerusalem in the first year of the reign of King Zedekiah . In I Nephi 7:14 we are told that Jeremiah is in prison. However, according to the Bible, Jeremiah was imprisoned in the TENTH year of King Zedekiah (Jeremiah 32:1-2). So... perhaps Nephi was referring to an event which happened AFTER he and his family left? This might explain the anachronism. But no, this is discounted in light of I Nephi 17:4, which is chronologically some time after the events of I Nephi 7:14."

I'm confused on this...how could Lehi / Nephi and family know about this event? I suppose they could have been inspired by the spirit to know what was going on back in the homeland...is that the answer?

I feel confused on even being able to articulate what the issue here is, but it just doesn't feel right...much I suppose like those who think I'm troll-ish when I'm really trying to figure things out.

My wife is devastated that I have doubts, I'm devastated at the amount of things that I can't get to 'add up' and at feeling confused as to why a true church has to lie, manipulate or change history in order for me to believe in it (my current view and sorrow)...if that's trollish, well, then I am...however I'd like to find at least some answers if I can.

Thanks.

Lets take a closer look at all of this. Do you have an actuall BoM?????

I will not respond until you have read the passages in the BoM (an actual copy in the paper form)

There are some things you are missing. This will help. IF you dont desire to look these up it shows me that you are not serious about this matter an are only interested in finding fault with the BoM.

Is that fare?

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Hello,

I am wondering about an apparent discrepancy in the BOM that I've not been able to fully grasp.

I found this online: "According to I Nephi 1:4, Nephi and his family left Jerusalem in the first year of the reign of King Zedekiah .

Actually it says Lehi received his vision of the impending destruction of Jerusalem in the first year. It doesn't say how long he preached before they decided to leave, but it does mention that he preached so much the Jews were tying to kill him.

In I Nephi 7:14 we are told that Jeremiah is in prison. However, according to the Bible, Jeremiah was imprisoned in the TENTH year of King Zedekiah (Jeremiah 32:1-2). So... perhaps Nephi was referring to an event which happened AFTER he and his family left? This might explain the anachronism. But no, this is discounted in light of I Nephi 17:4, which is chronologically some time after the events of I Nephi 7:14."

The heading to chapter 7 says that it occurred between 600 B.C.E. and 692 (although Zedekiah wasn't installed as king until 597), so we have no idea how far into the journey they were.

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Actually it says Lehi received his vision of the impending destruction of Jerusalem in the first year. It doesn't say how long he preached before they decided to leave, but it does mention that he preached so much the Jews were tying to kill him.

The heading to chapter 7 says that it occurred between 600 B.C.E. and 592 (although Zedekiah wasn't installed as king until 597), so we have no idea how far into the journey they were.

THere you go. Pretty much the same thing I was going to say. It just helps to have read it from an actuall copy of the BoM instead of some anti mormon site.

You missed it its not 692 its 592.

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?

Sorry an error in your post. You put 600-692 instead of 600-592. Sorry I know its a little thing.

Also check out this article

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=170

Some things I have never considered.

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This is what I found very interesting. IT puts it in the realm of possibilty to have know about Jerimiah.

Most readers of the Book of Mormon probably assume that the Nephite year was a solar yearâ??that is, a year based on the sun's movement through its solstices, equinoxes, and zenith passages and the seasonal changes linked with those solar events. That is how the modern world calculates time. However, unlike the Hebrew scriptures, which often mention seasons of the year (see Genesis 8:22; Psalm 74:17), the Book of Mormon, which speaks of seasons when fevers were prevalent (see Alma 46:40) and when wild beasts infested the land (see Mosiah 18:4), as well as seasons of fruit and grain (see Helaman 11:6, 13, 17), tells us little about the seasons of the year in terms of a constant calendar. In fact, historical information indicates that the principal Nephite calendar, at least for the first 609 years, could not have been based on a solar year.

The Book of Mormon narrative appears to date Lehi's vision and the beginning of his prophetic ministry to the first year of Zedekiah's reign (see 1 Nephi 1:4â??6, 18). The Neo-Babylonian ruler Nebuchadnezzar placed Zedekiah on Judah's throne in 597 BC, a date determined from the Hebrew scriptures and other ancient historical sources,1 some of which recorded astronomical events that can be accurately dated.

The descendants of Lehi counted precisely 600 years between his departure from Jerusalem and the time when they viewed the heavenly signs that immediately preceded and followed the Lord's birth (see 3 Nephi 1:1â??22). If the calendar used to measure those years was a solar calendar, it would place the Lord's birth in AD 3 or 4 at the earliest. This seems contrary to scriptural and historical sources, which indicate thatJesus Christ was born in the spring of 5 BC

The Gospel of Matthew records that "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king" (Matthew 2:1). The Magi met with Herod in Jerusalem and with Jesus' family in Bethlehem before Herod's death (see Matthew 2:2â??12). Josephus reports that at the Passover feast following Herod's death, a riot broke out and many were killed. Varus, the Roman governor of Syria, marched his forces to Jerusalem and left one of his legions there to maintain order. Because coins bearing Varus's name indicate he was governor of Syria from 6 BC through 4 BC, the death of Herod very likely occurred before Passover in the year 4 BCâ??and hence the birth of Christ earlier than that.

Chinese annals describe a long-lasting (and, by implication, bright) "broom star" that first appeared in March of 5 BC This star, probably a comet with a tail, could have been the star of the Magi (see Matthew 2:2, 9â??10) and the new star mentioned in the Book of Mormon as one of the signs of the Messiah's birth (see Helaman 14:5; 3 Nephi 1:21). If Herod died shortly before Passover in the year 4 BC and the broom star of 5 BC was in fact a sign of the Messiah's birth, then between Zedekiah's enthronement in 597 BC and Christ's birth in the spring of 5 BC there was not enough time for Lehi's descendants to have measured more than 592 solar years.

If the Nephites measured the 600-year period preceding Christ's birth with a lunar calendar composed of twelve "moons," there is no discrepancy at all in the counting of 600 years. A twelve-moon calendar averages only 354.367 days per year, eleven days fewer than a solar calendar, which averages 365.2422 days per year. Between 597 BC and 5 BC, ample time existed for this lunar calendar to measure all 600 years. Of course, two key questions are whether the Book of Mormon provides convincing evidence for a lunar calendar and how Lehi's year of departure from Jerusalem can be correctly adjusted to narrow the 597 BCâ??5 BC period to cover precisely 600 lunar years. Before pursuing these issues, it will be helpful to consider lunar calendars in general and the implications for our present study

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Do I have a copy of the BOM...that's funny. I've read it over 20 times (in high school I had a six month stint where I used to read 8 chapters a day so I could read it monthly), we have about 20 copies in our home and I read it online daily with my wife (actually, have that 'voice' read it to us as we listen -- she's got to rescue me from my doubting ways after all).

As I said, I couldn't really articulate the problem...or understand the problem...your posts have helped somewhat in that regard -- thanks.

MY BETTER VIEW OF THE 'ISSUE' (if indeed it even is an issue)

- 1 Nephi 1:4 - 1st year of Zedekiah (600bc) Lehi gets vision.

- 1 Nephi 1:18 - Unknown length of time...Lehi preaches.

- 1 Nephi 2: 1 - Lehi and family leave town.

- 1 Nephi 2: 4 - footnote is explicitly indicating the time they left as being 600BC.

- 1 Nephi 7:14 - Jeremiah in prison, seeking life of Lehi, rejecting prophets, all lumped together in same sentence...

- 1 Nephi 17: 4 - They were in the wilderness for 8 years.

The issue, now as I see it currently is that when Nephi was exhorting his brethren in 1 Nephi 7:14 and said Jeremiah was in prison, the setting of that exhortation was sometime during their 8 year sojourn in the wilderness. Given the year of 600 being 'fixed' (by whomever put in the footnote) and the 8 year duration in the wilderness, that has Nephi putting Jeremiah in prison 2 years before he actually was put into prison.

Is that the potential issue here?

I suppose if Lehi preached for a year or so in Jerusalem (not too likely a scenario if his life is in danger and given the 'fleeing sense' the story gives me -- but still possible I suppose), and if Lehi and family were indeed in the wilderness for 9-ish rather than 8 years (maybe Nephi got it wrong during his recollection of events many years after the fact), and if they were in contact with people who were giving them reports of the happenings in Jerusalem whilst they were in said wilderness... this could account for how Nephi could know Jeremiah was in prison during his exhortation to his brethren. And if they didn't have contact with the people who could give them these reports, perhaps the Liahonna or the Spirit told them, while they were in the wilderness (for that is the setting, they were in the wilderness at the time) that Jeremiah was in prison.

I suppose those could be plausible answers to this potential 'issue'? From Lehi's vision to leaving the wilderness actually was 10+ years and NOT the 8 years the BOM says it was?

How'd I do? :P

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This is what I found very interesting. IT puts it in the realm of possibilty to have know about Jerimiah.

....

If the Nephites measured the 600-year period preceding Christ's birth with a lunar calendar composed of twelve "moons," there is no discrepancy at all in the counting of 600 years. A twelve-moon calendar averages only 354.367 days per year, eleven days fewer than a solar calendar, which averages 365.2422 days per year. Between 597 BC and 5 BC, ample time existed for this lunar calendar to measure all 600 years. Of course, two key questions are whether the Book of Mormon provides convincing evidence for a lunar calendar and how Lehi's year of departure from Jerusalem can be correctly adjusted to narrow the 597 BCâ??5 BC period to cover precisely 600 lunar years. Before pursuing these issues, it will be helpful to consider lunar calendars in general and the implications for our present study

Very interesting stuff, thanks.

I'm presently thinking the issue is not so much whether it's 597 BC or 600 BC as the 'real start date'; but rather it's the 8 years in the wilderness and the fact that Jeremiah is said to be in prison during those 8 years they were in the wilderness vs. being in prison in the 10th year of Zedekiah's reign. To me the only way to reconcile it would be for Lehi to have preached a year (or more) in Jerusalem and or for the Lehi clan to have been in the wilderness for 9 vs. 8 years. Which I suppose is plausible, right?

Thanks.

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Do I have a copy of the BOM...that's funny. I've read it over 20 times (in high school I had a six month stint where I used to read 8 chapters a day so I could read it monthly), we have about 20 copies in our home and I read it online daily with my wife (actually, have that 'voice' read it to us as we listen -- she's got to rescue me from my doubting ways after all).[...]

Moderation in all things.

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Very interesting stuff, thanks.

I'm presently thinking the issue is not so much whether it's 597 BC or 600 BC as the 'real start date'; but rather it's the 8 years in the wilderness and the fact that Jeremiah is said to be in prison during those 8 years they were in the wilderness vs. being in prison in the 10th year of Zedekiah's reign. To me the only way to reconcile it would be for Lehi to have preached a year (or more) in Jerusalem and or for the Lehi clan to have been in the wilderness for 9 vs. 8 years. Which I suppose is plausible, right?

Thanks.

Well I certainly think so. I really tried to understand the article more indepth that I posted. THinking they dont go off a solar calander would change things a bit. There really isnt enough information given to say conclusivly that there is a problem with 1 Nephi 7:14 compared to Jeremiah 32. It seems like the anti's source for this arguemtn would have you believe the case is closed but its not. Sometimes I have to look at the realm of possiblity. IT is possible the BoM false. I dont believe it is. Is it possible the the BoM is true? I think so. With the article taken in account for the unknowen time frames of Lehi. It is impossible to say conclusivly that it is out of place.

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Well I certainly think so. I really tried to understand the article more indepth that I posted. THinking they dont go off a solar calander would change things a bit. There really isnt enough information given to say conclusivly that there is a problem with 1 Nephi 7:14 compared to Jeremiah 32. It seems like the anti's source for this arguemtn would have you believe the case is closed but its not. Sometimes I have to look at the realm of possiblity. IT is possible the BoM false. I dont believe it is. Is it possible the the BoM is true? I think so. With the article taken in account for the unknowen time frames of Lehi. It is impossible to say conclusivly that it is out of place.

I tend to agree, it's not as big a problem as presented at first blush when you dig into the possibilities (with this particular 'issue').

THANK YOU...this gives me hope that I can post there and actually have respectful conversations...

Take care,

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MY BETTER VIEW OF THE 'ISSUE' (if indeed it even is an issue)

Oh, so your perspective is better now? I see.

- 1 Nephi 1:4 - 1st year of Zedekiah (600bc) Lehi gets vision.

Zedekiah wasn't put on the throne by Babylon until 597 B.C.E.. When you tell me how you reconcile that with the inclusion of the year 600 in the footnotes of the Book of Mormon I will respond to the rest.

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I tend to agree, it's not as big a problem as presented at first blush when you dig into the possibilities (with this particular 'issue').

THANK YOU...this gives me hope that I can post there and actually have respectful conversations...

Take care,

Your welcome. I know a few people have come in herer just to bash I try to take things at face value. At least your still not trying to "win" some sort of argument. THat is when the problems start. You ask a question. Then you get a reasonable answer. ( most of the time I feel they are reasonable) But then proceed to attack the original question. THat is a clear sign that some one isnt interested. I dont think you are like that so I thought I would try to help you on this one.

Again I must say I really think that article puts soome new lights on the "Lehi callendar system" I hadnt really thought about.

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Oh, so your perspective is better now? I see.

Zedekiah wasn't put on the throne by Babylon until 597 B.C.E.. When you tell me how you reconcile that with the inclusion of the year 600 in the footnotes of the Book of Mormon I will respond to the rest.

I think s/he realieses that the arguement was a little faulty to begin with. I would be interested in your responce just for the sake of a responce though.

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Understood.

My response to my own question or to their concern?

What ever you were going to repsond to RE about this "Zedekiah wasn't put on the throne by Babylon until 597 B.C.E.. When you tell me how you reconcile that with the inclusion of the year 600 in the footnotes of the Book of Mormon I will respond to the rest"

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Jeremiah was imprisoned before this time as well. The KJV and other translations says "stocks" but it was believed to have been a cell that made it necessary to stoop over. The Jewish Publication Society placed the word cell there in their translation of the Tanakh. Placing one into a cell is imprisonment. In addition, the mahpekheth (translated "stocks" in our current Jeremiah in the KJV) is translated "prison house" in 2 Chronicles 16:10 as well as "prison" in the Septuagint.

Additionally, other passages such as the one at Acts 16:24 shows that stocks were found inside a prison at that time.

Finally, plural translations such as the plural word stocks are problematic at best because the Hebrew word is singular, not plural. Rendering the plural "stocks" here is incorrect and is not translated. It is interpreted rather than translated in versions that use the plural there.

The worst thing of all, however, is that the Book of Jeremiah's chronology is royally screwed up. The book exists in different versions with differing chronologies and textual lengths and the manuscripts do not even agree with the placement of certain names. For instance, some manuscripts read Zedekiah where Jehoiakim exists in others and vice versa. There is a snippet of Aramaic text where there should be Hebrew in one chapter, indicating that someone added that text into Jeremiah later.

Attacking the Book of Mormon or even questioning it based upon the problematic Jeremiah text is foolhardy at best.

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The worst thing of all, however, is that the Book of Jeremiah's chronology is royally screwed up. The book exists in different versions with differing chronologies and textual lengths and the manuscripts do not even agree with the placement of certain names. For instance, some manuscripts read Zedekiah where Jehoiakim exists in others and vice versa. There is a snippet of Aramaic text where there should be Hebrew in one chapter, indicating that someone added that text into Jeremiah later.

Attacking the Book of Mormon or even questioning it based upon the problematic Jeremiah text is foolhardy at best.

THis is what I notcied as I looked at the book of Jeremiah. THe Chronology seems to be messed up. THere is at least 2 places were he was thrown in to "prison" Were it specifically says that. One tells us that King Zedakiah was king for 10 years the other says no such thing.

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Nephi and his brothers also made several trips back to Jerusalem while they were camped out in the desert. It is possible they picked up the latest news, including the arrest of Jeremiah, while back in town. This could have happened a long time after they left, as much as several years later.

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If the Nephites measured the 600-year period preceding Christ's birth with a lunar calendar composed of twelve "moons," there is no discrepancy at all in the counting of 600 years. A twelve-moon calendar averages only 354.367 days per year, eleven days fewer than a solar calendar, which averages 365.2422 days per year. Between 597 BC and 5 BC, ample time existed for this lunar calendar to measure all 600 years. Of course, two key questions are whether the Book of Mormon provides convincing evidence for a lunar calendar and how Lehi's year of departure from Jerusalem can be correctly adjusted to narrow the 597 BCâ??5 BC period to cover precisely 600 lunar years. Before pursuing these issues, it will be helpful to consider lunar calendars in general and the implications for our present study

Doesn't the Jewish calendar include "fixes" rather like our leap year? I understood that this is why Jewish holy days have stayed approximately "in place" (during the right season) over the millenia, while Muslim holy days are slowly drifting.

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