Implications Of Noah's Flood Not Being Global

[urroner]

Was the earth baptized by immersion? Or just a sprinkling?

I've seen storms here in Florida when it was a total immersion. Raining several inches in an hour is a hoot.

[Deborah]

I've seen storms here in Florida when it was a total immersion. Raining several inches in an hour is a hoot.

Several years ago in the midwest there was a period of extensive flooding. Interstates were covered in water. I drove from NE to KS after one of those big rains and water was still covering a portion of one lane of the interstate. I realized at that time how quickly water could build up when one considers a downpour of rain into already drenched ground and the rising of rivers covering houses and farms and roads.

[Sanpitch]

There is no question in geology that the earth was once covered in a shallow sea, the part in question is when the earth was covered and if it was all covered at the same time. Every geologist in the world knows that major mountain chains are made of sedimentary rocks that were deposited in a shallow sea setting and then raised above that shallow sea afterwards.

Yes there is evidence that some mountains have sedimentary layers formed from a sea floor, with snails, clams and so forth, however that does not indicated that the earth was covered in a shallow sea. It indicates that the mountain was once below sea level. In fact there can be one layer of sea bed fossils and then on top of that, hundreds or possibly a thousand feet of desert or other type of layers and then another sea bed layer. Utah geology is one such area with multiple sea bed layers. They can be plainly seen in many areas of the state. That does not give any evidence of a world wide flood.

[Son]

Yes there is evidence that some mountains have sedimentary layers formed from a sea floor, with snails, clams and so forth, however that does not indicated the the earth was covered in a shallow sea. It indicates that the mountain was once below sea level. In fact there can be one layer of sea bed fossils and then on top of that, hundreds or possibly a thousand feet of desert or other type of layers and then another sea bed layer. Utah geology is one such area with multiple sea bed layers. They can be plainly seen in many areas of the state. That does not give any evidence of a world wide flood.

Yes it does, those same layers cover the planet...

son

[Sanpitch]

Yes it does, those same layers cover the planet...

son

Well, OK, I'll admit that they could but at different times. So we have a world wide flood in sections, a flood in Utah, one in somewhere else. None in Greenland or the ice cap would have floated off.

[Son]

Well, OK, I'll admit that they could but at different times. So we have a world wide flood in sections, a flood in Utah, one in somewhere else. None in Greenland or the ice cap would have floated off.

No, not at different times, but they formed differently according to the type of soils, terrain and movements of the plates. There were no ice caps, no rain for that matter. The atmosphere was dense and filled with moisture. No rain until the floods. No rainbows either.

son

[mnn727]

Can we clear up one little nit pick I have. Joseph Smith said that after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden they built an alter in Adam-ondi-ahmen. It is also the place where Adam will come back to before Judgement day. Joeseph never said the Garden of Eden itself was located in Missouri

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, near Wight's Ferry, at a place called Spring Hill, Daviess County, Missouri, May 19, 1838. HC 3:35.

SPRING Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

Also from D&C 107 "Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing. And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel. And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever. And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation."

Perhaps its a small insignificant nit, but I feel the need to pick it anyway

[maupayman]

Why is it essential the whole world should be flooded?

I don't think it was. Maybe i am misunderstanding your question.

[maupayman]

I don't. It doesn't make sense to me, but it is doctrine. OTOH, there are many different ways of thinking about it, about how it could be so, etc. Perhaps some day it WILL make sense to me. So I continue to learn everything I can on the topic, keep my opinion fluid, and keep my mouth shut.

HiJolly

fair enough, thanks for your honest reply. I can respect someone who is willing to say i don't know.

[maupayman]

It was said earlier that there was no evidence of a global catastrophe in our historical past. I guess it is all in how one interprets the evidence then. There is more than ample evidence that a catastrophic flood happened in our past. Critics always bring strawman arguments to the table such as - how did the flood cover Mt. Everest? Duh, at the time of the flood Mt. Everest did not yet exist. It is interesting that critics always point their arguments at believers in hope that they will somehow baffle them. Another one I always here is that the earth contains millions and millions of species and therefore Noah could not of possibly saved them on the ship. Another strawman, the overwhelming majority of species are water/ sea dwelling animals which would not need saving.

Wouldn't the mixing of fresh and salt water create a problem for many of the aquatic species? Even if you take out the water/sea dwelling animals it is still outrageous to believe that he could have gotten two of every land species. Furthermore, as stated earlier how would the land animals get back to habitate remote areas of the world like Japan, Australia etc?

[maupayman]

Can we clear up one little nit pick I have. Joseph Smith said that after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden they built an alter in Adam-ondi-ahmen. It is also the place where Adam will come back to before Judgement day. Joeseph never said the Garden of Eden itself was located in Missouri

Perhaps its a small insignificant nit, but I feel the need to pick it anyway

This is indeed a very small nit to pick. It still places Adam and Eve in North America.

[maupayman]

THe whole earth was flooded.

Mt. Ararat was connected near Florida. Pre continental shift. Which was as the waters receded.

God has never stopped creating, if there are plants, and animals that were not on the boat, they were created for God's and mans pleasure post flood.

Do we think all plants survived. I didn't see a Redwood tree on Noah's boat.

son

I believe continental drift has been occuring for millions of years, not a few thousand. So are you suggesting God had a second creation period after the flood?

[maupayman]

Why write them off? But yes, one would have to, to believe in only a local flood. And, as Rob said, many more, especially, it would seem, Enoch.

I think Rob hit on an important point--what is essential to our eternal welfare, and what is not?

The problem with this line of thinking for me is that if Joseph's teachings and interpretations of revelations were wrong in situations where we can check to see if they were true, such as Noah's flood, Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon geography etc. How can we say that these don't matter because they do not affect our eternal welfare.

-Joseph said that Adam and Eve lived in modern day North America; this makes no sense unless we believe in a global flood which carried Noah to Asia, and i think that there was not a global flood.

-Joseph said that the papyri he bought contained the writings of Abraham and Joseph, he then said he translated those papyri into english. This has been shown to be wrong.

-He also recieved revelations and taught that the Nephite civilization was located in modern day North America. This has been shown to be wrong.

I'm sure i could find other similar situations. The problem is how do we write these off as mistakes, or "not essential to our eternal welfare" and then trust his teachings and revelations regarding outrageously complex issues such as eternal progression, plural marriage, three degrees of glory etc etc etc? There is no way to verify whether he was right about these matters, yet we just have to trust his teachings.

[Son]

I believe continental drift has been occuring for millions of years, not a few thousand. So are you suggesting God had a second creation period after the flood?

There was a great shift at the time of the flood, the continents were separated.

The continents are always moving, very slowly with the gravitational pull of the moon, yet they are moving. In the end they will be thrown back together as one land mass.

God has not stopped creating, it goes on without end, even on earth. His day of rest is coming, but is not yet.

son

[grego]

The whole world, at least according to the ancients did not extend much more than beyond their viewing. The word of world in Hebrew is fairly limited, eretz means land as well as world. Their land was their world. It did not include the Himalayas or even the more local Aratta mountains.

I think you missed the Enoch part in the quote you quoted?

For myself, I have a hard time believing that the ancients were idiots.

Folks, the answers to many of your "questions" are in the links I posted. You really will appreciate reading them...

-=-=-=

Why write them off? But yes, one would have to, to believe in only a local flood. And, as Rob said, many more, especially, it would seem, Enoch.

I think Rob hit on an important point--what is essential to our eternal welfare, and what is not?

The problem with this line of thinking for me is that if Joseph's teachings and interpretations of revelations were wrong in situations where we can check to see if they were true, such as Noah's flood, Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon geography etc. How can we say that these don't matter because they do not affect our eternal welfare.

-=-=-=

-Joseph said that Adam and Eve lived in modern day North America; this makes no sense unless we believe in a global flood which carried Noah to Asia, and i think that there was not a global flood.

-Joseph said that the papyri he bought contained the writings of Abraham and Joseph, he then said he translated those papyri into english. This has been shown to be wrong.

-He also recieved revelations and taught that the Nephite civilization was located in modern day North America. This has been shown to be wrong.

These are all based on your beliefs, I think.

A & E in NA, Noah in the Middle East area; where's the conflict? Where's the proof that there was no global flood? Did you even look at the first link I posted? Do you *really* want some relevant answers?

What exactly did JS say, and what was proven wrong about the papyri?

I don't think JS ever taught that Nephite civilization was in NA, and it hasn't been shown wrong. None of them have been shown to be wrong.

-=-=-=

I'm sure i could find other similar situations.

Please, do so.

-=-=-=

The problem is how do we write these off as mistakes, or "not essential to our eternal welfare" and then trust his teachings and revelations regarding outrageously complex issues such as eternal progression, plural marriage, three degrees of glory etc etc etc? There is no way to verify whether he was right about these matters, yet we just have to trust his teachings.

Do you find a reason not to? (Also, it shows the necessity of the Spirit.) When someone speaks up in class and says something a little off or wacky, do you jump in and correct it? I usually don't, and neither do the majority of people I know. However, what if someone says something like, It doesn't matter if we repent or not--is it the same?

[Ron Beron]

Those LDS who support a localized flood because of lack of evidence, then have to say that the critics are right when they deny the authenticity of the Book of Mormon because of lack of evidence, at least the evidence that supports the scientific world. I do wonder how one responds, however, to the fossil evidence of sea life found in the mountains of North America.

I can assert with some reasonable state of authority that many of these mountains were at one time at or below sea level and only were raised to their ascendency by the shifting of tectonic plates.

[Ron Beron]

'Rob Osborn' writes,

Critics always bring strawman arguments to the table such as - how did the flood cover Mt. Everest? Duh, at the time of the flood Mt. Everest did not yet exist.

I'm sorry...I must have been digging my finger out of my nose or something, but where is your evidence for this little tidbit? Or am I one duh too many? Everest was formed 60 million years ago when the tectonic plates collided to make the mountain range.

Every geologist in the world knows that major mountain chains are made of sedimentary rocks that were deposited in a shallow sea setting and then raised above that shallow sea afterwards.

Somehow you have neglected those which are igneous or metamorphic not just sedimentary. The movement and shaping of the earth is not static, but ever changing.

[Son]

'Rob Osborn' writes,

I'm sorry...I must have been digging my finger out of my nose or something, but where is your evidence for this little tidbit? Or am I one duh too many? Everest was formed 60 million years ago when the tectonic plates collided to make the mountain range.

Somehow you have neglected those which are igneous or metamorphic not just sedimentary. The movement and shaping of the earth is not static, but ever changing.

60 million?//

That is non sense...

[Ron Beron]

'grego' writes,

I think you missed the Enoch part in the quote you quoted?

For myself, I have a hard time believing that the ancients were idiots.

Idiots? Not at all. They were, however, very limited in their understanding of celestial physics.

Folks, the answers to many of your "questions" are in the links I posted. You really will appreciate reading them...

I did read them...therefore?

[maupayman]

Here's one for you go:

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/275993.aspx

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/...eOverview8.html

http://www.icr.org/topic/10/

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i2/ages.asp

Lots of Flood Q&A:

http://www.icr.org/article/3126/12/

Well i'm no Geologist, but some of these postings sound a little fishy. The fact that there may have been enough water to flood the earth is in my view insignificant. How did anything survive throughout the world, particularly in remote areas like Australia (i think i've mentioned that three times now)? Furthermore, I believe Chinese history goes back before the flood, and yet the Chinese seem to still be around.

[maupayman]

These are all based on your beliefs, I think.

A & E in NA, Noah in the Middle East area; where's the conflict? Where's the proof that there was no global flood? Did you even look at the first link I posted? Do you *really* want some relevant answers?

I addressed this in my last post.

What exactly did JS say, and what was proven wrong about the papyri?

He said that the rolls he purchased contained the writings of Abraham and Joseph. They clearly do not contain that. He also claimed that he translated them into english, which as can be seen by even just the facsimiles he did not do.

I don't think JS ever taught that Nephite civilization was in NA, and it hasn't been shown wrong. None of them have been shown to be wrong.

An article titled "History of Joseph Smith, "in the Mormon newspaper Millennial Star, published in England, had the following to say about the ancient City of Manti (as in the Book of Mormon):

The camp passed through Huntsville, in Randolph County [Missouri], which has been appointed as one of the Stakes of Zion, and is the ancient site of the City of Manti.... [sept. 1838] (The Latter-day Saints' Millennial Star, "History of Joseph Smith," Vol. 16, page 296, May 13, 1854)

The index of the present Book of Mormon under Manti, Land of, has: "most southerly land of Nephites" and under Manti, City of, it has: "chief city in land of Manti." All this information leads to the conclusion that the Land of Manti is allegedly in the State of Missouri, in the United States. Mormon historian and Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, in his book Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 3, pages 239-241, came to the same conclusion.

Furthermore, regarding the first article i referenced in the Milennial Star Joseph wrote a letter to the editor to clarify his desires:

To N. E. Seaton, Rochester. DEAR SIR;--I was somewhat disappointed on receiving my paper with only a part of my letter inserted in it. The letter which I wrote you for publication, I wrote by the commandment of God, and I am quite anxious to have it all laid before the public, for it is of importance to them . . . (History of the Church, 1:326)

These clearly locate the Book of Mormon lands in present day USA. This has been shown to be impossible due to the requirements of language, culture etc. for the BoM people.

[grego]

Idiots? Not at all. They were, however, very limited in their understanding of celestial physics.

Adam? Enoch? Brother of Jared? Abraham? Which ones had very limited understandings of celestial physics? CFR.

-=-=-=

Well i'm no Geologist, but some of these postings sound a little fishy. The fact that there may have been enough water to flood the earth is in my view insignificant. How did anything survive throughout the world, particularly in remote areas like Australia (i think i've mentioned that three times now)?

It didn't.

-=-=-=

Furthermore, I believe Chinese history goes back before the flood, and yet the Chinese seem to still be around.

http://www.creationism.org/csshs/v07n4p24.htm

http://www.orthodox.cn/localchurch/200406a...ntcnhist_en.htm (esp. go down to "4. Indications of Ancient Chinese Knowledge of the Creation and the Global Flood")

http://across.co.nz/GENESIS-China.htm

http://www.chinasoul.org/e/e-wk/episode01.htm

-=-=-=

They clearly do not contain that. He also claimed that he translated them into english, which as can be seen by even just the facsimiles he did not do.

Have you searched all the threads on this? Apologetic articles? They're all in agreement here with you?

But back to the main point--and if so, and we interpret everything correctly (as to what they meant) for anything, and the prophets are wrong on a scientific, by-study, temporal matter that has nothing or very little to do with our salvation--then what?

[charity's child]

Well i'm no Geologist, but some of these postings sound a little fishy. The fact that there may have been enough water to flood the earth is in my view insignificant. How did anything survive throughout the world, particularly in remote areas like Australia (i think i've mentioned that three times now)? Furthermore, I believe Chinese history goes back before the flood, and yet the Chinese seem to still be around.

Possible explanation:

25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brotherâ??s name was Joktan.

Maybe Australia wasn't all that remote?

Just a biblical thought.

[KingZedekiah]

For example, with the Creation: What is meant by "a day"? 24 hours? 1,000 years? A "period of time"?

The scripture says the morning and evening were the first day. The morning and evening were the second day, etc. So we are not left without a definition of "a day". Instead, you might be asking what was "morning" and what was "evening"/

How deep into semantics do you want to go?

The scripture says the "Sun ruled the day" and "Moon ruled the night". But I've seen the moon out during the day. Does that mean it was night or the moon doesn't rule the night necessarily.

The only thing that is important to me as a Christian is that God created the World and God created Man. And I am a product of that creation and I am a child of God.

[Ron Beron]

Adam? Enoch? Brother of Jared? Abraham? Which ones had very limited understandings of celestial physics? CFR.

It is prima facie what the ancients believed and what they didn't. For one they had no concept of a Copernican concept of the solar system nor did they accept the round earth theory. While there might have been some understanding of a correct view of the universe by the ancients such as Abraham, there is nothing directly written by them to confirm this. If so, you would have posted it. Since there is virtual agreement on what the ancients believed why do you hold to such an untenable position?