Implications Of Noah's Flood Not Being Global

[Heidi]

As far as I know the last Ice Age ended 10,000 years ago which is 5,000 years before the supposed flood.

I think humanity and the world are much older than the Bible states, I suppose I should have made that more clear.

Maybe I will ask Grego about unicorns.

[Sethbag]

Ron Beron, I've referred to the Greenland ice sheet studies several times in the past as positive proof (ie: proof through evidence, as opposed to "proof" through lack of evidence) that a global Flood of Noah certainly did not occur. Thanks for putting up that link. I've downloaded it and started reading it. I think it's interesting how they counted, and used multiple independent methods to corroborate the counting methods, all the way back over 110,000 years.

This can't just be poo-pooed*. Saying there's no evidence for a Flood is one thing. Saying there's evidence that a Flood did not happen is another and more powerful thing.

I think it's hard for people who have made up their mind about their religious views to come to terms with the science, and to admit to themselves that they've been wrong, and be open to a more correct worldview. It's very difficult for a great many people. But I personally think it's essential. At least, it's essential to me. Grego might be perfectly happy going through life with a wildly incorrect worldview. One doesn't require accuracy in knowledge to be happy; ignorance is, as they say, bliss.

But for me personally, since I'm of a scientific bent, I require verifiable and provable, well-supported knowledge. The verifiable, well-supported, proven take on the Flood of Noah is that it certainly never happened within the last few thousand years, on a global scale. In other words, the literalist reading of Genesis is simply wrong.

My own interpretation of these circumstances is that the Genesis flood story simply represents Israelite mythology, which they inherited and evolved from their neighbors/predecessors in the region.

*not that it will stop the Answers in Genesis folks from trying to explain this away - you can count on it

[grego]

http://www.ancientdays.net/flood.htm (There's even something about Gilgamesh here.)

http://www.ancientdays.net/flood2.htm (

http://www.ancientdays.net/postfloodciv.htm

-=-=-=

What can Brown do for you?

No, Sethbag, it's what he can do for you.

-=-=-=

Joseph Smith says the Garden of Eden was in Missouri? Adam and Eve left the Garden. They could have been sent anywhere when they were kicked out.

Yes. They walked a few thousand miles to the luscious Middle East, as that was more important to them at that time than working the cursed earth. However, riding unicorns, it was quite a quick journey...

[ryanelwood]

Does anyone know if Grego's hero and idol Brown can also prove that the Unicorns in the Bible were real?

[Rob Osborn]

Speaking of the Greenland ice sheets, has anyone ever hears of the story of the "lost squadron", a group of WW2 planes sent out in operation Bolero which landed on the west coast of Greenland and then the crews had to be rescued out? The planes were left behind and for years were forgotten, then almost 50 years later a group set out to find them. They expected to find them under only 10 or 20 feet of snow and ice. For many years the search turned up nothing, then they got some high tech equipment and found the planes buried under the ice. Get this- they found one of the p-38's 268 feet under the ice! It had not melted or sank there, but had slowly over the 50 years been covered in snow which compacted into ice.

They cut through the ice with a special machine and cut out the sections of the plane and brought it to the surface and took it to a hanger in the US and painstakingly restored the old bird- now the only flyable p-38f in existance.

This is testimony that the ice cores from Greenland are not nearly as old as people believe them to be! Here is the official lost squadron site-

http://thelostsquadron.com/

[Deborah]

I think it's hard for people who have made up their mind about their religious views to come to terms with the science, and to admit to themselves that they've been wrong, and be open to a more correct worldview.

Likewise, it's hard for someone of a scientific bent who only looks at the evidence at hand to come to terms with the idea there might actually be something more involved.

I have always loved science and have no problem with looking at it and coming up with a theory that fits both the science and religion. I do think, however, we don't know everything. Even what we think we know may not be what actually is. I do believe God is the ultimate scientist and so whatever the real answer I'm quite sure there is a scientific explanation, albeit one that may not be based on any current knowledge. Our Article of Faith states "We believe all things, we hope all things...." Therefore I don't think we should close our minds to any alternative, either on the religious or scientific side. All I know is that prophets both ancient and modern have discussed Noah and the flood as a reality, not a myth. How the flood is interpreted is quite another matter.

[Sethbag]

This is testimony that the ice cores from Greenland are not nearly as old as people believe them to be!

Yes, the Lost Squadron thing was interesting, and I know about them already, and am very pleased that they recovered the P-38. However, it is not testimony that the ice sheets aren't as old as people believe them to be. The annual layers in the ice sheets are not all the same thickness. The more recent layers are thicker, and they get thinner and more compacted as they go down. By the time you get to the bottom they are very narrow indeed.

Did you read the article Ron Beron linked to? It details the methods used to count the annual layers all the way from the top down to the bottom.

[Tchild2]

Likewise, it's hard for someone of a scientific bent who only looks at the evidence at hand to come to terms with the idea there might actually be something more involved.

The only place the idea of global flood exists, comes from a religious text laden with symbols, metaphor and allegory. The literalizing of that text is the believers issue and inability to understand the world...not the world's to understand the text.

I have always loved science and have no problem with looking at it and coming up with a theory that fits both the science and religion. I do think, however, we don't know everything. Even what we think we know may not be what actually is. I do believe God is the ultimate scientist and so whatever the real answer I'm quite sure there is a scientific explanation, albeit one that may not be based on any current knowledge. Our Article of Faith states "We believe all things, we hope all things...." Therefore I don't think we should close our minds to any alternative, either on the religious or scientific side. All I know is that prophets both ancient and modern have discussed Noah and the flood as a reality, not a myth. How the flood is interpreted is quite another matter.

Who said that religious texts are meant to be taken literally? Didn't Jesus himself speak in parables (non-literarly) so that the succinct truths would remain and that only those open to the ideas could understand them?

Believers have to reshape the whole world to fit their incorrect reading of a religious text instead of just adjusting how they read the text in the first place. What makes more sense really, that the world is so topsy turvey or that you and others have read and interpreted a text incorrectly? Think about it.

[Deborah]

Who said that religious texts are meant to be taken literally? Didn't Jesus himself speak in parables (non-literarly) so that the succinct truths would remain and that only those open to the ideas could understand them?

So you are saying if I believe the Bible to be more literal in some areas than you that I'm not open to understanding? I bow to your obvious superiority. NOT! I certainly didn't say to take the all religious texts literally, but I do believe a lot more of it is true than the Intellects would like to admit. Accepting that Noah was real and that the flood in some context was real is based not on the Genesis account but the fact that later prophets, including Latter-day prophets refer to it. Unlike some of the psuedo-scholars I don't pretend to know how it happened or whether it was in a small land mass or covered the world. The answer has not been revealed and in any case it doesn't matter.

Believers have to reshape the whole world to fit their incorrect reading of a religious text instead of just adjusting how they read the text in the first place. What makes more sense really, that the world is so topsy turvey or that you and others have read and interpreted a text incorrectly? Think about it.

Nonsense, utter nonsense. No one has to rehape the world to believe in something that has no effect on their salvation. Believing in a literal flood or a figurative one does not change one iota what is required to attain salvation. What makes sense is to have faith that all things will be revealed and not to worry about the details now. I happen to believe that there are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in the philosophy of men (to borrow from Shakespeare), so in a sense I'm much more open minded to any possibility. This is what makes sense: to read what the text says in context with what other prophets have said, to look at the physical evidence and then to recognize that there could be something that is missing in our understanding and look forward to the time when all things will be revealed.

[Tchild2]

So you are saying if I believe the Bible to be more literal in some areas than you that I'm not open to understanding? I bow to your obvious superiority. NOT! I certainly didn't say to take the all religious texts literally, but I do believe a lot more of it is true than the Intellects would like to admit. Accepting that Noah was real and that the flood in some context was real is based not on the Genesis account but the fact that later prophets, including Latter-day prophets refer to it. Unlike some of the psuedo-scholars I don't pretend to know how it happened or whether it was in a small land mass or covered the world. The answer has not been revealed and in any case it doesn't matter.

You may interpret the bible any way you wish, but when the cumulative scientific and experiential evidences of the world point to your (Not directed at you personally Deborah, but believers in general) interpretation as mythical, metaphorical, or allegorical, why are believers so vested in being right in their antiquated initial interpretations? Remember, when these first teachings entered into religious thinking, our societies lacked the most basic understanding of the world. The ideas originated from a mostly scientifically ignorant peoples. There exists worldwide amongst all peoples, myth cultures from century to century and from civilization to civilization. It was the way to explain a seemingly inexplicably complicated universe.

Remember that we used to think that the earth was the center of the universe and the Catholic church viewed it as heretical to state otherwise? Was the earth being the center of the universe necessary for Catholic salvation? Well this is the exact sort of thing.

Have you ever read a metaphysical treatment of the Genesis account? Well, it is beautiful, poignant and rich with symbolism. Best of all it represents an inner spiritual world and has absolutely nothing to do with the physical one. Isn't that the domain of religions anyway...the spiritual?

Nonsense, utter nonsense. No one has to rehape the world to believe in something that has no effect on their salvation. Believing in a literal flood or a figurative one does not change one iota what is required to attain salvation. What makes sense is to have faith that all things will be revealed and not to worry about the details now. I happen to believe that there are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in the philosophy of men (to borrow from Shakespeare), so in a sense I'm much more open minded to any possibility. This is what makes sense: to read what the text says in context with what other prophets have said, to look at the physical evidence and then to recognize that there could be something that is missing in our understanding and look forward to the time when all things will be revealed.

Go read Rob and Gregos absolutely convoluted reasoning about the reality of a global flood. They haven't had to reshape the world? To make the flood real, they have to believe that the world was relatively flat just 4,000 - 6,000 B.C and then God magically made the mountains arise later. That all the earth's species fit into an ark. Have you ever travelled Deborah? Well if you have driven 500 miles in any direction you would know that it would be an absolutely impossible task. Every species of tree, fauna, insect. You still with me here? You say that isn't ignoring the collective knowledge of our world to reshape it for religious interpretation?

So, if the global flood isn't necessary for salvation or exaltation...then why the vested interest by yourself or the church to be right? Aren't these boards and the years of apologetics proof that prophets are indeed fallable that they do in fact err and interject opinions of men and their own opinions into all sorts of things? So why couldn't the global flood be such a case? I mean, we had patriarchs who were telling people that they would preach to moon inhabitants. Were they right too?

Sure, our knowledge of the world is incomplete, but when religions attempt to describe the physical world using religious texts, someone has gone way off course, individually or collectively.

[Ron Beron]

Speaking of the Greenland ice sheets, has anyone ever hears of the story of the "lost squadron", a group of WW2 planes sent out in operation Bolero which landed on the west coast of Greenland and then the crews had to be rescued out? The planes were left behind and for years were forgotten, then almost 50 years later a group set out to find them. They expected to find them under only 10 or 20 feet of snow and ice. For many years the search turned up nothing, then they got some high tech equipment and found the planes buried under the ice. Get this- they found one of the p-38's 268 feet under the ice! It had not melted or sank there, but had slowly over the 50 years been covered in snow which compacted into ice.

They cut through the ice with a special machine and cut out the sections of the plane and brought it to the surface and took it to a hanger in the US and painstakingly restored the old bird- now the only flyable p-38f in existance.

This is testimony that the ice cores from Greenland are not nearly as old as people believe them to be! Here is the official lost squadron site-

http://thelostsquadron.com/

What a remarkable story. I have seen a TV special about how they pulled one of the planes out and restored it to fly. There aren't many of the old P-38's still flying and it is quite a coup. In fact, there is an entire company out there that looks for old abandoned and lost aircraft.

[Sethbag]

I think it is quite reasonable to suppose that there are a great many things we don't know yet. There are a great many things we might not, as humans, even be able to know. Dawkins gave a great talk about that recently*. The thing is, there's really no reason in the world to assume that the things we don't know will turn out to be the things the LDS religion posits. It's natural for you to believe that way, being long-time LDS, but if you think about it objectively, there's really no reason the unknown things would turn out to be LDS stuff rather than almost anything else.

* I'll find a link to it and put it up a bit later, when I get back from a family event I have to leave for now.

edit: here's the Dawkins speech

[Ron Beron]

'grego' writes,

http://www.ancientdays.net/flood.htm (There's even something about Gilgamesh here.)

http://www.ancientdays.net/flood2.htm (

http://www.ancientdays.net/postfloodciv.htm

I checked out the web pages you offered and especially noted how Dr. Livingstone, author of the above pages had a PhD in archeaology. I checked out the academic setup of his alma mater, Andrews University, and found they don't offer a PhD in archeaology or even history, ancient or otherwise. He does have quite an extensive background in theological matters and has even conducted a search for the Ark. He must be legit.