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What was Joseph like at time of translation?


Olavarria

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I was thinking,in regards to intellectual preperation and education, which group of people in contemporary american life most resemble the Prophet Joseph Smith circa 1830?

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060407_migrantWorkers_hLarge_2p.hlarge.jpg

Migrant_workers_California_resized.jpg

Mosaic_picking.jpg

09.jpg

If you think one of these guys can dictate a BoM while looking into a sombrero, then I have a stealth bomber I want to sell you. Am I off base here? Wasnt he digging people wells for pay?

ps. Im Puerto Rican on both sides and I served my mission in Cuahuiala Mexico, so dont even try to play the race card. Im brown and I get down!

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Jaybear:

Probably not very much about IQ or talents. Just a good approximation of their time involved in just earning a living. In the fields before dawn and still working after sunset.

I think that is generous interpretation.

But if its a matter of time, then its not an apt comparison. Migrant workers work year round. New England farmers don't work their fields in the winter.

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Jaybear:

New England Farmers of the time did much much more than just work their fields. Everything from feeding the animals to Maple sugaring. There was a constant lack of money and only one way to get more, work your but off for someone else with money then come home and do some more work.

Before the days of Price Supports. You worked your butt off to produce a good crop, then if your neighbors also worked hard, and produced a good crop, the price fell, and you still starved.

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I would not doubt that many of the people in those pictures have the capability of becoming more proficient in sciences, music and literary arts than any of us. Infact, I don't doubt I have the capability of performing better than some olympic athletes, if I tried.

Don't mix up the potential to be smrt with developed talents, though.

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Attempts at obfuscation notwithstanding, you can probably guess something of the level of education of the people in these photographs.

If you disagree, let's place a bet: I say that such people are unlikely to be law school graduates. Not even Berkeley law school graduates. And I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm willing to put a thousand bucks on the notion that, if we go to a typical California farm field and check with the laborers on it, not even one in ten will have a bachelor's degree. And not one in a hundred will have either an MBA, a law degree, or an American-accredited doctorate. Jaybear, do you think otherwise?

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Is anybody suggesting that Joseph Smith was little more than a field hand with no background in formal education... or at least not much of one?

I hope not, because that's pretty much who he was.

and he was a true prophet of God.

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1) in no way am I questioning the intelligence of these people. My great grand parents on both sides of the family were illiterate and made their livings doing what these people do in the hills of Puerto Rico. It isnt a questian of raw intelligence, its a questian of preparation something the 18 30 Joseph and these people lack.

2) What I am saying is that if you really want to get an idea of Joseph's level of intellectual suffistication ie his level of education, then you need look no further that the people in those pictures.

3)Every time the BoM is shown to describe some geographical aspect of the ancient near east(Nahom/eastword turn, wadi Sayq and its iron, ancient ship building tradition), ancient literature(chiasmus, if..and clauses, egyptian names and non-biblical hebrew names, similie curses, the "prophetic perfect" tense) or ancient mesoamerica(parrallel rise and fall of the Olmec/Jaredite, mesoamerican warfare, baktun calender prophecy) or ancient religious concepts(a hebrew Dea Nutrix and her tree), the rapid dictation of an extraordinarily complex Book of Mormon and without notes, "the land of Jerusalem" etc, someone alaways says "well some guy in france during 1820 knew about that" and then automatically assume Joseph did too, only because it is in the BoM. Fawn McKay Bordie in her No Man Knows My History noticed that none of the BoM names started with the letters q, x, or w nor begin with F. She concluded that this was evidence of Joseph's cunning brilliance and something he must have remembered from reading the Bible. Paleeeze.

Joseph is made to look like the world's first Googler or some backwoods scholar.

4)None of the people in those pictures could ever plop a rock in their hat, stick their face in the hat and produce the BoM from their brains, niether could Joseph and niether can you. Its easy to imagine some modern, comparitivly highly educated American making it up but I show you these pictures just so you can see what Joseph was really like in 1830.

Here he is again:

aztlan_illegals_time_06of6_border_jump_fence.jpg

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Is anybody suggesting that Joseph Smith was little more than a field hand with no background in formal education... or at least not much of one?

I hope not, because that's pretty much who he was.

and he was a true prophet of God.

I also know he was a Prophet of God, but in terms of his education and training...circa 1830...he was nothing more than a field hand. That is why theories that posit him as the author of the BoM are pretty lame. He didn't write that book, Mormon did.

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HerAmun,

And I feel you grossly underestimate his ability and talent as a human being. More likely than not he would have tossed you out on your ear for making such a statement. No doubt in my mind he was more familiar with the Bible than many of us here, based solely on environment. When was the last time you heard of anyone learning to read and write from the Bible? His whole life had this book front and center, if I read enough Shakespeare I am sure I could write something similar and come real close. In quality. IMO this is what he has done with the BOM. I would also say he didn't act alone in the creation of the Book but that is another thread.

Regards,

Sentinus

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4)None of the people in those pictures could ever plop a rock in their hat, stick their face in the hat and produce the BoM from their brains, niether could Joseph and niether can you. Its easy to imagine some modern, comparitivly highly educated American making it up but I show you these pictures just so you can see what Joseph was really like in 1830.

There's no meaningful difference between modern Americans and 19th-century Americans. In fact, a fourth-grade education in 19th-century New York would be equivalent to something much different today:

Subject: 1895 Eighth Grade Final Exam

Remember when our grandparents, great-grandparents, and such stated that they only had an 8th grade education? Well, check this out. - - -

This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina, KS, USA. It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina, KS, and reprinted by the Salina Journal.

8th GRADE FINAL EXAM

Grammar (Time, one hour)

1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.

2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no Modifications.

3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.

4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb. Give Principal Parts of. lie, lay and run

5. Define Case, Illustrate each Case.

6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.

7. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours)

1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.

2. A wagon box is 2 ft deep, 10 feet long! , and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?

3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1050lbs. for tare?

4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?

5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.

6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.

7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per meter?

8 Find bank discount on $300 for! 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.

9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance

around which is 640 rods?

10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.

U. S. History (Time, 45 minutes)

1. Give the epochs into which U. S. History is divided.

2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.

3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.

4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.

5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.

6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.

7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?

8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.

Orthography (Time, one hour)

1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic, orthography, etymology, syllabication?

2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?

3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, sub vocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?

4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u! '.

5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two

exceptions under each rule.

6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.

7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup

8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.

9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane,

fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.

10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.

Geography (Time, one hour)

1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?

2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?

3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?

4. Describe the mountains of North America.

5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver,

Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall & Orinoco.

6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.

7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.

8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?

9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.

10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.

Also notice that the exam took five hours to complete.

Gives the saying "she/he only had an 8th grade education" a whole new meaning, doesn't it?

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"Gives the saying "she/he only had an 8th grade education" a whole new meaning, doesn't it?"

Do you think that is hard, or do you think that is easy?

I wonder how some people would do on such a test, even now.

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HerAmun,

And I feel you grossly underestimate his ability and talent as a human being. More likely than not he would have tossed you out on your ear for making such a statement. No doubt in my mind he was more familiar with the Bible than many of us here, based solely on environment. When was the last time you heard of anyone learning to read and write from the Bible? His whole life had this book front and center, if I read enough Shakespeare I am sure I could write something similar and come real close. In quality. IMO this is what he has done with the BOM. I would also say he didn't act alone in the creation of the Book but that is another thread.

Regards,

Sentinus

Reading is onething, writing a whole new book is another. I can read at a very high level and generally understand what I'm reading. Ask me to write a children's book with an intellegent purpose and then have critics read it for content I don't think so. I have a hard time writing complete

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I was thinking,in regards to intellectual preperation and education, which group of people in contemporary american life most resemble the Prophet Joseph Smith circa 1830?

57207830.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE3F4A0C48CC6CD4F9A40A659CEC4C8CB6

060407_migrantWorkers_hLarge_2p.hlarge.jpg

Migrant_workers_California_resized.jpg

Mosaic_picking.jpg

09.jpg

If you think one of these guys can dictate a BoM while looking into a sombrero, then I have a stealth bomber I want to sell you. Am I off base here? Wasnt he digging people wells for pay?

ps. Im Puerto Rican on both sides and I served my mission in Cuahuiala Mexico, so dont even try to play the race card. Im brown and I get down!

Maybe not "text" smart but smart, just as J.S !

:P

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Reading is onething, writing a whole new book is another. I can read at a very high level and generally understand what I'm reading. Ask me to write a children's book with an intellegent purpose and then have critics read it for content I don't think so. I have a hard time writing complete

:P

I have been playing Bach and Beethoven since I was 12 or 13.

That would be almost 50 years.

Ask me to write a symphony in the style of Beethoven or

a cantata in the style of Bach, and I will say, "Sorry."

I appreciate the photos and the sentiment. Raw intelligence is not

all that is needed to produce a complex work.

Bernard

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And I feel you grossly underestimate his ability and talent as a human being. More likely than not he would have tossed you out on your ear for making such a statement. No doubt in my mind he was more familiar with the Bible than many of us here, based solely on environment. When was the last time you heard of anyone learning to read and write from the Bible? His whole life had this book front and center...

Regards,

Sentinus

His family and best friends would disagree with you.

Bernard

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Attempts at obfuscation notwithstanding, you can probably guess something of the level of education of the people in these photographs.

If you disagree, let's place a bet: I say that such people are unlikely to be law school graduates. Not even Berkeley law school graduates. And I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm willing to put a thousand bucks on the notion that, if we go to a typical California farm field and check with the laborers on it, not even one in ten will have a bachelor's degree. And not one in a hundred will have either an MBA, a law degree, or an American-accredited doctorate. Jaybear, do you think otherwise?

I would put the Light of Christ that is within them -"Education"- over man's arrogant and errant education any day of the week.

Cuz dat Jesus feller went to Havard, or Yayel huh.......

:P

I have been playing Bach and Beethoven since I was 12 or 13.

That would be almost 50 years.

Ask me to write a symphony in the style of Beethoven or

a cantata in the style of Bach, and I will say, "Sorry."

I appreciate the photos and the sentiment. Raw intelligence is not

all that is needed to produce a complex work.

Bernard

Beethovens credit was He gave the credit to God for His greatest symphonys and blamed himself for his not so great ones.

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"Gives the saying "she/he only had an 8th grade education" a whole new meaning, doesn't it?"

Do you think that is hard, or do you think that is easy?

I wonder how some people would do on such a test, even now.

That's 8th grade circa 1800's, not 8th grade 2000. Although education in the 50's was probably better than now days. Certainly not in the 1800's though. I would put JS at a 4th or 5th grade level in the 1800's comparitively.

Ooops I just read Structurecops post, He said it better......

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I would put the Light of Christ that is within them -"Education"- over man's arrogant and errant education any day of the week.

Cuz dat Jesus feller went to Havard, or Yayel huh.......

Beethovens credit was He gave the credit to God for His greatest symphonys and blamed himself for his not so great ones.

But all of them are great.

Bernard

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Attempts at obfuscation notwithstanding, you can probably guess something of the level of education of the people in these photographs.

If you disagree, let's place a bet: I say that such people are unlikely to be law school graduates. Not even Berkeley law school graduates. And I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm willing to put a thousand bucks on the notion that, if we go to a typical California farm field and check with the laborers on it, not even one in ten will have a bachelor's degree. And not one in a hundred will have either an MBA, a law degree, or an American-accredited doctorate. Jaybear, do you think otherwise?

If you think real intelligents is measured by a degree, then you have missed the boat by a mile and a half. Some of the dumbest people I know are college educated with more degrees than you can shake a stick at. while some of the smartest people I know have a limited amount of education. The best teacher is life and its experiences.

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