Priesthood Manual 2008 Joseph Smith

[BishopRic]

Your comment was: "I keep coming back to wondering what Helen's opinion has to do with the rightness of Joseph's behavior."

From what has since been stated, would you agree that Helen's opinion (particularly in the later stages of her life) at least has to do with how she perceived the "rightness" of polygamy in general, and specifically in relation to she and Joseph? And if so, is there something or someone that somehow trumps her perception of "rightness" for herself (your's and other people's opinion about polygamy perhaps?)?

And, reasoanbly assuming that Joseph felt the same "rightness" for himself regarding polygamy in general (at least in terms of sealings), and specifically in relation to Helen, is there something or someone that somehow trumps his perception of "rightness" for himself (yours and other people's opinion obout polygamy perhaps?)?

If your anser to either of these questions is yes, could you please explain what the trump would be?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Perhaps a bit of a stretch on this comparison, but if we could ask some of the women at Jonestown about their "Prophet" Jim Jones, wouldn't we possibly get the same loyalty and devotion sort of answer? I think it's human nature to defend your decisions...I don't see anything Helen Mar said as surprising considering her early involvement with polygamy. Do you?

[bR - you're still relatively new here. We consider comparisons to Jim Jones an extension of Godwin's Law. Violation of Godwin's Law usually gets the thread closed. You'll see it refrenced in our guidlines here:

Do not violate accepted rules and norms for discussion or debate. Any violation of Godwin's Law or similar laws (extreme comparisons or hyperbole), or lack of substance will result in the closing of a discussion.

Please refrain. ~mods]

[John Williams]

Your comment was: "I keep coming back to wondering what Helen's opinion has to do with the rightness of Joseph's behavior."

From what has since been stated, would you agree that Helen's opinion (particularly in the later stages of her life) at least has to do with how she perceived the "rightness" of polygamy in general, and specifically in relation to she and Joseph? And if so, is there something or someone that somehow trumps her perception of "rightness" for herself (your's and other people's opinion about polygamy perhaps?)?

And, reasoanbly assuming that Joseph felt the same "rightness" for himself regarding polygamy in general (at least in terms of sealings), and specifically in relation to Helen, is there something or someone that somehow trumps his perception of "rightness" for himself (yours and other people's opinion obout polygamy perhaps?)?

If your anser to either of these questions is yes, could you please explain what the trump would be?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What I'm saying is that Helen's opinion on the matter has no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of Joseph's actions. All we can say is that she believed she was doing right and that Joseph was doing right. Since we don't have Joseph's side of things, we can't really assume anything, can we? Yet some people here insist that willingness to do something makes that something right, an entirely fallacious belief.

I'm sure people have rationalized all manner of behavior. That has no bearing on whether that behavior is right. Otherwise, we're back to "if it feels good, do it."

[Kenngo1969]

It's not exactly pounded into our brains that Joseph began the practice of polygamy and had as many as 33 wives, including 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball.

Sorry. Will this do?

The longer this goes on, the more I have a tendency to think that the Church is trying to protect us from doubting the sincerity and calling of Joseph Smith.

It is? Goodness, why would it want to do that?!

But I can't believe that Joseph was this perfect person and never made any mistakes.

â??I never told you I was perfect. But there is no error in the revelations I have taught.â?

â??Joseph Smith

Why doesn't the Church round out the story of Joseph's life with a few downfalls and missteps that he might have taken?

This accusation makes it seem as though youâ??ve never even so much as read the Doctrine & Covenants. I hope thatâ??s not the case.

â?¦ (I)t is also clear that the leaders thought it [plural marriage] was a requirement for salvation.

Then why did only some members of the Church of Jesus Christ practice it? If it is a requirement for everyoneâ??s salvation, then why wasnâ??t it universally practiced?

â?¦ (U)nless this information is also shared with the members of my ward, they aren't going to have the same opportunity to learn what I am learning.

It would seem from this (though I hope Iâ??m wrong) that you donâ??t just want your questions answered, you think doubts should be sown where none previously existed. (Because that's what would happen if people "have the same opportunity to learn what [you] are learning"â??by attending (a) mass presentation(s) designed to answer your particular doubts and questions.)

Then I have to ask: Don't people read the Doctrine and Covenants?

Unfortunately, no.

And if they do, don't they pay attention?

Againâ??unfortunatelyâ??no.

The Institute manual I cited is available at Church Distribution Centers and, from what I can tell, is available all of the time.

Not to mention being available literally all of the â??all of the timeâ? at LDSCES.org.

I think back on the time I was trying to make a point in Relief Society class on eternal progression, and I got the RS president very flustered. I was called as Primary Music Director the very next week and I haven't been to Relief Society much since then.

Itâ??s a conspiracy!

I 'get the feeling' that he doesn't want me to take it upon myself to reveal this, and he may assign a talk to one of his counselors or something so it can be brought up in Sacrament meeting or something.

Yeah. How dare he try to subvert the Ward Rumor Mill!

What good is he [the bishop] if you can't ask him questions and expect that he might be able to help you with them?

Depends on the question. My personal crisis is that I donâ??t think the scriptures comport with Einsteinâ??s Theory of Relativity. I mean, that should be childâ??s play for a man as [allegedly] inspired as my bishop!

We are often cautioned to stick to the manuals when presenting lessons to the children, and that outside sources are inappropriate when teaching. So, how would I have ever been introduced to B.H. Robert's book if it isn't allowed to be used for teaching lessons on Church History?

So â?¦ you only read inasmuch as you are required to do so in order to prepare to teach a Primary lesson each Sunday? That muchâ??and nothing more?

I never insisted that the Bishop should know every historical factoid, but doesn't the fact that even he didn't know what I was specifically talking about show that the Church hasn't really done a good job expressing Church history to its members?

I think somebody, somewhere on this Board, might have said a time or two that itâ??s not the job of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to teach historyâ??maybe.

Plural marriage in particular was tied to exaltation and position in the eternities.

Dang! I knew somethinâ?? was gonna derail my celestial ambitions! I didnâ??t think it was gonna be that, but â?¦ Oh, well!

[Momus]

Perhaps a bit of a stretch on this comparison, but if we could ask some of the women at Jonestown about their "Prophet" Jim Jones, wouldn't we possibly get the same loyalty and devotion sort of answer? I think it's human nature to defend your decisions...I don't see anything Helen Mar said as surprising considering her early involvement with polygamy. Do you?

You have just lost the debate. Having to resort to extreme hyperbole is against board rules and standards of debate. Thread Closed.