If You Were Wrong, Would You Want To Know It?

[HiJolly]

Just for the record, I really liked Bluebell's answers. So I may be influenced unduly by them.... or not...

can we simply disqualify these Faiths and others that sprout up periodically based on our Faith and trust in the Bible?

Absolutely not. Most legitimate religions have some, if not much, truth to share. IMO.

I. Is it plausible, according to scripture, that Satan could manipulate us by our 'hearts'?

Sure.

II. What is our test according to scriptural example?

The test comes in several way according to scripture.

NT: John 7: 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

BoM: Moroni 10: 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

D&C: 9:8-9 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

So, to recap: Take action and see the fruits; Pray; Study and pray.

Is it safe to say that the example shown would alleviate the potential of a subjective heart/emotions being manipulated?

No. Depends on each individual. These are general guidelines applicable to most people, IMO.

III. Are we not forewarned by Paul himself that 'New Testaments' would crop up and try to lead us astray?

Not that I've ever heard of. I think your making that up.

What does he say is the Gospel that we are to obey?

the commandments? i dunno.

In the most simplest of answers, what other instructions or gospels are we instructed not to obey?

Anything not given by the spirit of Christ.

From whom might 'any other gospel' be presented to us?

Just about anyone, I suppose.

Is there a point to all this? Or is it helpful to you?

HiJolly

[hokuman]

Yes, but the logic doesn't work the other way round, does it? Here is what I mean;

1. If there is a God, and if he chooses to reveal himself to humanity, then it is possible that some of the things he reveals will be unexpected, and perhaps counter-intuitive. Therefore the fact that the content of religion X is (in everyday terms) bizarre and inconvenient to its practitioners does not necessarily mean it is false. That is a very old argument, well stated in Joseph Butler, 1736 "The analogy of religion, natural and revealed, to the constitution and course of nature." It is not a stupid argument, although in my view it has severe limits.

But ....

2. The fact that the content of religions Y and Z are (in everyday terms) bizarre and inconvenient to their practitioners does not make them more likely to be true.

So the fact that some objectors to the CoJCoLDS find its tenets bizarre, and that some of its practioners find that being LDS causes them problems, does nothing to prove that the beliefs of the CoJCoLDS are true. The same is, after all, true of the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses - which most people on this board believe, like me, to be false.

You are right and that is just my point. It does not matter if the doctrines of Church A--Z fall in place with your current mind set or not. It does not make it right or wrong--assuming there is one true Church. If there is one true Church, then one of those doctrinal sets will be right. You can think it to death and there is only one way to really know which one it is. My first point.

[merlin0152]

Just for the record, I really liked Bluebell's answers. So I may be influenced unduly by them.... or not...

Absolutely not. Most legitimate religions have some, if not much, truth to share. IMO.

What exactly do you define as a "legitimate" religion? How can so many different groups share this "truth" but be divided?

QUOTE (Merlin0152)

I. Is it plausible, according to scripture, that Satan could manipulate us by our 'hearts'?

Sure. (HiJolly)

So why would one trust this test, which may be deception?

The test comes in several way according to scripture.

NT: John 7: 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

My understanding of this verse is that Jesus is trying to prove to the doubting Jews that his testimony comes from God and not of selfish ambitions. The Jews are to find out if Jesus' words are from God if their intent is to do God's will.

BoM: Moroni 10: 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Point noted, but if we are to determine if the LDS scriptures are true or not, we can not in good logic use them to prove themselves....right?

D&C: 9:8-9 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

Obviously same point as above.

So, to recap: Take action and see the fruits; Pray; Study and pray.

QUOTE (Merlin0152)

Is it safe to say that the example shown would alleviate the potential of a subjective heart/emotions being manipulated?

(HiJolly) No. Depends on each individual. These are general guidelines applicable to most people, IMO.

I don't know if we were on the same page on this one. I was referring to the example of the Bereans studying of the scriptures to justify Paul's message to them. So we can agree that there may be a possibilty of Satan's deception in our hearts, but does that threat exist in studying God's word?

QUOTE (Merlin0152)

III. Are we not forewarned by Paul himself that 'New Testaments' would crop up and try to lead us astray?

(HiJolly) Not that I've ever heard of. I think your making that up.

I am? Could you tell me what you think Paul is refering to in Galations 1:6~9? He clearly states "...turning to a different Gospel, which is really no gospel at all.", "...some are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.", "...even if we or an angel preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you...", and "...if anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted...". I'm not really sure how else you could take this.

QUOTE (Merlin0152)

What does he say is the Gospel that we are to obey?

(HiJolly) the commandments? i dunno.

I was looking for the answer within Paul's statement in Galations: "other than the one we preached to you" or other than what Paul has originally preached to them; information they already had from their intial interactions with Paul

QUOTE (Merlin0152)

In the most simplest of answers, what other instructions or gospels are we instructed not to obey?

(HiJolly) Anything not given by the spirit of Christ.

I was looking for what was in line with what Paul says to the Galations: "anything than what we have preached to you" in otherwords anything but the Scriptures or what is today the Bible.

QUOTE (Merlin0152)

From whom might 'any other gospel' be presented to us?

(HiJolly)Just about anyone, I suppose.

I agree....even an Angel right?

Is there a point to all this? Or is it helpful to you?

HiJolly

It was mainly for thought. I wanted to see if anyone else agrees of the potential of Satan's power to decieve our hearts. You or others, may have never of thought of it that way.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Never mind something got screwed up here.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What exactly do you define as a "legitimate" religion? How can so many different groups share this "truth" but be divided?

So why would one trust this test, which may be deception?

How would you suggest that we come to know if something is from God??

[Avatar4321]

Actually, if we are prove the LDS Scriptures correct, we are necessarily forced to use them, not to ignore them.

[HiJolly]

What exactly do you define as a "legitimate" religion? How can so many different groups share this "truth" but be divided?

Subjectively, of course, just like anyone else. For me, the true sign of a 'legit' religion is if it teaches basic principles of love, active service, humility, personal purity and compassion. In a nut shell. I readily admit that this is inadequate, but since I'm not writing a doctrol dissertation here, I'm not bothered by it.

So why would one trust this test, which may be deception?

Um, what test was that? You referring to Galatians again?

If you're wondering how one can trust spiritual impressions, that's a great question. We all have to deal with it, sooner or later. I am just thrilled that the Church laid the groundwork for me learn about it, and to develop to the point where I can be comfortable with how it works for me.

My understanding of this verse is that Jesus is trying to prove to the doubting Jews that his testimony comes from God and not of selfish ambitions. The Jews are to find out if Jesus' words are from God if their intent is to do God's will.

I agree. I think the point was, the way to find out was in DOING. Not intending.

Point noted, but if we are to determine if the LDS scriptures are true or not, we can not in good logic use them to prove themselves....right?

Naw, we can't have any fruit if we ignore the tree. IMO. Mathematics uses itself to prove/validate itself all the time. I think that approach is exceptionally pragmatic and useful.

I don't know if we were on the same page on this one. I was referring to the example of the Bereans studying of the scriptures to justify Paul's message to them. So we can agree that there may be a possibilty of Satan's deception in our hearts, but does that threat exist in studying God's word?

I think yes, absolutely! I think that those who allow others to interpret God's word for them up the ante to unbearable levels.

I am? Could you tell me what you think Paul is refering to in Galations 1:6~9? He clearly states "...turning to a different Gospel, which is really no gospel at all.", "...some are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.", "...even if we or an angel preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you...", and "...if anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted...". I'm not really sure how else you could take this.

So for you, "new testament" and "different Gospel" are synonymous? Wow. Who do you suppose determines what is different, and how do you suppose they can make that judgement?

I was looking for the answer within Paul's statement in Galations: "other than the one we preached to you" or other than what Paul has originally preached to them; information they already had from their intial interactions with Paul

Ok. So their standard was what was previously taught, so they could accept nothing else, nothing new? What's the point of Paul writing to them, then?

I was looking for what was in line with what Paul says to the Galations: "anything than what we have preached to you" in otherwords anything but the Scriptures or what is today the Bible.

Yeah, but you are including his own words at this point, by your reasoning. I don't like that. Too short sighted. Inadequate for the need.

I agree....even an Angel right?

I wouldn't say it that way, no. I would say "even someone or something appearing as an Angel". I firmly believe that Satan's angels are no angels at all. Not really. Some have referred to them in that way, but I take it as an idiosycratic usage.

It was mainly for thought. I wanted to see if anyone else agrees of the potential of Satan's power to decieve our hearts. You or others, may have never of thought of it that way.

I am and have been for some time, very aware of the possibility. One cannot study religious truth without dealing with the possibility of deception, in my experience.

HiJolly