Blacks And The Mormon Priesthood

[rocmonkey]

You might want to talk to Paul then, as he didnâ??t seem to think it was still an everlasting covenant (he must surely be teaching a different gospel, and therefore all of his epistles should be ignoredâ?¦ or as you say â??If one thing is wrong, it must all be wrong.â? [or is there yet another double standard when it comes to the Bible?]).

Well, at least you have no shortage of pride.

God isn't as concerned about our physical as he is our spiritual well being. What he said about eating certain clean or unclean foods is now done away with, too. Why? I assume because of cooking methods but I don't know for sure. The same can apply to circumcision. Its what God declares as His doctrines for Salvation that Christians are most concerned with. If we miss that boat none of the rest really matters much, does it?

Usually when people do â??research,â? they actually seek out the viewpoints of others instead of allowing their egocentric pride to govern their process. This does however explain why LDS telling you what they believe doesnâ??t hold as much water as what you have decided a priori that they believe.

I agree and I usually do. But, when it comes to the LDS its hard to get past their penchants for lying. Ever heard of Paul Dunn? Or, JS saying men live on the moon? Or, BY saying Adam is LDS only God and men live on the sun? See what I mean? Some Mormon is always willing to lie to make what 'they' said not look like what they said. I read what they said and that shows what they meant at the time they were speaking- and since their God didn't destroy them (as they said he would if they led the church (members) astray) for saying it then he is in total agreement with it all. LDS can't have it both ways.

[LifeOnaPlate]

But, when it comes to the LDS its hard to get past their penchants for lying. Ever heard of Paul Dunn?

Were his lies sustained by the Church?

Or, JS saying men live on the moon? Or, BY saying Adam is LDS only God and men live on the sun?

As for the Joseph Smith claim, asked and answered. Even if wither of these men said what you say they said, how are these "lies"?

See what I mean? Some Mormon is always willing to lie to make what 'they' said not look like what they said.

Curious, I wonder if you've ever lied.

I read what they said and that shows what they meant at the time they were speaking- and since their God didn't destroy them (as they said he would if they led the church (members) astray) for saying it then he is in total agreement with it all. LDS can't have it both ways.

Just curious, how do you reconsile your belief in the "racist Jesus" who told His disciples to only teach Jews?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Are you saying then that God knowingly, willingly deceives (lies) His people only to change His mind later with the real truth? How can that kind of God ever be trusted to be telling the truth, All-knowing, perfect, never lie or loving? If we did that to our families it would destroy us, them and everything around us.

I would never serve a God that does that. In fact, he wouldn't be God at all if he did that because he said he knows everything before anything (1 Ne.9:6) and that he never changes or he ceases to be God (Mormon 9:19).

Why do you still serve him?

Rocmonkey Im beging to think you do not have any critical thinking skills. Does God force people to do things that are against thier agencey?

[rocmonkey]

Were his lies sustained by the Church?

As for the Joseph Smith claim, asked and answered. Even if wither of these men said what you say they said, how are these "lies"?

Curious, I wonder if you've ever lied.

Just curious, how do you reconsile your belief in the "racist Jesus" who told His disciples to only teach Jews?

Yes, they were. The fact that the prophet (JS, BY) speaks directly to God (daily) and no one said or did anything when he told his first lie, says yes. He was a leader leading folks astray with lies and the LDS god knew it.

No one lives on the moon- we've been there

No one lives on the sun and no LDS today is taught Adam is their only God

Yes, I have lied far more than I care to recall or even can but never about God

That's not racism. Jesus was sent only to the Jewish people because God chose them way back with Abraham. No one else was willing to serve God.

What makes you think Jesus is racist?

[Skylla]

God isn't as concerned about our physical as he is our spiritual well being. What he said about eating certain clean or unclean foods is now done away with, too. Why? I assume because of cooking methods but I don't know for sure. The same can apply to circumcision. Its what God declares as His doctrines for Salvation that Christians are most concerned with. If we miss that boat none of the rest really matters much, does it?

I agree and I usually do. But, when it comes to the LDS its hard to get past their penchants for lying. Ever heard of Paul Dunn? Or, JS saying men live on the moon? Or, BY saying Adam is LDS only God and men live on the sun? See what I mean? Some Mormon is always willing to lie to make what 'they' said not look like what they said. I read what they said and that shows what they meant at the time they were speaking- and since their God didn't destroy them (as they said he would if they led the church (members) astray) for saying it then he is in total agreement with it all. LDS can't have it both ways.

Do not come to an LDS board and insult the people who host it. Two week suspension.

Skylla

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Do not come to an LDS board and insult the people who host it. Two week suspension.

Skylla

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! Well the mods in sky said it. Let it be so.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yes, they were. The fact that the prophet (JS, BY) speaks directly to God (daily) and no one said or did anything when he told his first lie, says yes. He was a leader leading folks astray with lies and the LDS god knew it.

The "LDS god?"

No one lives on the moon- we've been there

Good thing Joseph Smith didn't teach for doctrine that anyone did.

No one lives on the sun

Is there any life in the sun at all?

and no LDS today is taught Adam is their only God

Neither did Brigham Young. The Adam-God theory is a misrepresentation of what Brigham Young taught. Adam is indeed "the Father," in that he is the father of our mortal, physical bodies. Then he is the only Ancient of Days, father of the mortal tabernacle with who we have to do.

Yes, I have lied far more than I care to recall or even can but never about God

But we've already established that being wrong about something makes you a liar. Or, at least, that's what you claim for BY and JS.

That's not racism. Jesus was sent only to the Jewish people because God chose them way back with Abraham. No one else was willing to serve God.

What makes you think Jesus is racist?

D'OH!

Two trolls in one day.

Make sure he answers my CFR when he gets back. Or if he's out there reading this he can e-mail me, my username at Gmail.

CFR on no one else being "willing" to serve God. Thanks.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The "LDS god?"

Good thing Joseph Smith didn't teach for doctrine that anyone did.

Is there any life in the sun at all?

Neither did Brigham Young. The Adam-God theory is a misrepresentation of what Brigham Young taught. Adam is indeed "the Father," in that he is the father of our mortal, physical bodies. Then he is the only Ancient of Days, father of the mortal tabernacle with who we have to do.

But we've already established that being wrong about something makes you a liar. Or, at least, that's what you claim for BY and JS.

D'OH!

Two trolls in one day.

Make sure he answers my CFR when he gets back. Or if he's out there reading this he can e-mail me, my username at Gmail.

CFR on no one else being "willing" to serve God. Thanks.

Will you post your emails here so we can continue. or is that against the rules?

[Doctor Steuss]

God isn't as concerned about our physical as he is our spiritual well being. What he said about eating certain clean or unclean foods is now done away with, too. Why? I assume because of cooking methods but I don't know for sure. The same can apply to circumcision. Its what God declares as His doctrines for Salvation that Christians are most concerned with. If we miss that boat none of the rest really matters much, does it?

Double standard.

I agree and I usually do. But, when it comes to the LDS its hard to get past their penchants for lying. Ever heard of Paul Dunn? Or, JS saying men live on the moon? Or, BY saying Adam is LDS only God and men live on the sun? See what I mean? Some Mormon is always willing to lie to make what 'they' said not look like what they said. I read what they said and that shows what they meant at the time they were speaking- and since their God didn't destroy them (as they said he would if they led the church (members) astray) for saying it then he is in total agreement with it all. LDS can't have it both ways.

It's times like this that I'm glad you employ double standards, or else you would summarily dismiss all of Christ's apostles because of the actions of Judas or Peter.

And I thought we addressed the Joseph Smith and the moon thing as well as the Adam/G-d theory(?) And then, Iâ??m not sure where your logic (if there is any) goes in the above paragraph.

Oh wellâ?¦ just keep banging your head against the monolith of Mormonism. Hopefully G-d will be more forgiving of you than you have been of others.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Will you post your emails here so we can continue. or is that against the rules?

Probably against the rules. If Rocmonkey allowed I'd forward them. He's not going to e-mail me, though; I have a feeling an audience of one isn't what he's after, anyway.

[Hammer]

God isn't as concerned about our physical as he is our spiritual well being. What he said about eating certain clean or unclean foods is now done away with, too. Why? I assume because of cooking methods but I don't know for sure. The same can apply to circumcision. Its what God declares as His doctrines for Salvation that Christians are most concerned with. If we miss that boat none of the rest really matters much, does it?

I agree and I usually do. But, when it comes to the LDS its hard to get past their penchants for lying. Ever heard of Paul Dunn? Or, JS saying men live on the moon? Or, BY saying Adam is LDS only God and men live on the sun? See what I mean? Some Mormon is always willing to lie to make what 'they' said not look like what they said. I read what they said and that shows what they meant at the time they were speaking- and since their God didn't destroy them (as they said he would if they led the church (members) astray) for saying it then he is in total agreement with it all. LDS can't have it both ways.

Actually God is equally concerned with our physical and spiritual. To Him all things are spiritual including our bodies=temples. (D&C 93: 33

33 For man is aspirit. The elements (physical) are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; )

D&C 29: 34

34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

John 2: 21

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

1 Cor. 6: 19

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

You show your arragance and weakness by making sweaping generalizations without foundation as to the honesty of the LDS. One man took two stories and made them one. He admitted to his error. Not everything he said was lies. Just one or two. That doesn't make him a lier any more than you are a lier and you know how many lies you have told.

[Love For All]

Sounds like a book that would be worth investing in.

Acutally, it is not worth investing in. I bought it and was quite disappointed. He shares some nice warm thoughts, but spends too much time telling us what we don't know. And based upon scriputres that I've recently become aware of, the book only shows how much brother Martin knows. Unfortunately, this is just another book on a subject that church members hunger for but have no real substance.

LFA

[Love For All]

The Church had set a standard of proof where you had to prove via your genealogy for like I dunno 5 generations on either side no black ancestory or something like that, the terms were utterly impossible to get around. However one of the very reasons the ban was lifted was for the very reason it was getting hard to determine ethnicity, this was becoming a problem in Brazil. Many people that appeared white no doubt received the priesthood accidently in the intervening time.

In my opinion the ban was racist but also ironically had some basis in doctrine, though I am completely alone in my opinion I believe that the reason it was lifted is because the black skinned curse is being lifted from the earth, by the mingling of the races there are not people anymore that are as black as pitch tar, they are the minority. Elijah Able does not appear to of been for example pure blood negro. There is no doubt in my mind that being colored or not colored has to have some direct relationship and bearing relative to the pre-existence it is in my mind utterly impossible to not be so, logic can dictate no other possibility as I see it. However I am open to suggestion. It appears to me it was a rough mixture of policy, doctrine, and racism all played a part. I accept I am completely alone in my belief.

Darius Gray is the real expert and he illustrates all the paradox's and contradictions of the ban, very well in my mind, I understand he was invited to make a presentation at BYU on his research into the policy.

I've seen Darius Gray's presentation as well on Blacks in the Bible. It actually makes most of what you've said incorrect. For an example, he used the scriptures to show that Christ through Mary was part black. There were high Priest who were black and the mother of most Mormons was black (Asenath, mother of Ephraim and Manaseh) Also the thing that stood out to me the most in Marvin Perkins' fireside is that he went into the D&C and showed where the Lord commanded that the Priesthood go to all men. There's actually one of those scriptures used on the video clips on the site for the new DVD.

http://www.blacksinthescriptures.com/clips.html

So it looks like we just got it wrong. Was it race related? The scriptures show that all who claimed it was doctrinal or from the pre-existence were and are wrong.

LFA

[Love For All]

Remember all....

The ban was "specific" to those of AFRICAN DESCENT, not based on "skin color".

Which is exactly why "racism" wasn't really the issue related to it. The spirit of racism was simply a part of those times, and mormons sometimes weren't immune.

This is actually incorrect. In Darius Gray's presentation on Blacks and the Priesthood, he told how the ban started here and how the Saints did not want to give up their slaves. We've been preaching how anti slavery we were. So you can imagine how shocked I was to hear him say that UT made slavery legal in the area after arriving there.

LFA

[Love For All]

Let him speak for himself. CFR.

David O McKay also said the following: â??There is not now, and there never has been a doctrine in this Church that the Negroes are under a divine curse. There is no doctrine in the Church of any kind pertaining to the Negro. â??We believeâ?? that we have a scriptural precedent for withholding the priesthood from the Negro. It is a practice, not a doctrine and the practice someday will be changed. And thatâ??s all

there is to it.â?

See â??David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonismâ? By

Greg Prince & William Robert Wright.

[BlueDreams]

Are you saying then that God knowingly, willingly deceives (lies) His people only to change His mind later with the real truth? How can that kind of God ever be trusted to be telling the truth, All-knowing, perfect, never lie or loving? If we did that to our families it would destroy us, them and everything around us.

Aren't you jumping the gun just a little there (and most everywhere)? I've said nothing of the sort. Nothing in the book says it is perfect, no one here believes it is, and infallibility on written words is not believed. What I see is your system of belief in words to exaggerate. Suddenly grammatical nuances and errors become G-d lying and bad famillial ethics.

I would never serve a God that does that. In fact, he wouldn't be God at all if he did that because he said he knows everything before anything (1 Ne.9:6) and that he never changes or he ceases to be God (Mormon 9:19).

Why do you still serve him?

Why do you build straw men?

With luv,

BD

[kamenraider]

I don't disagree with Bro. Martins's sentiments regarding racial equality, but he does seem to be trying to distort our view of the history of the priesthood ban by the way he gives emphasis to certain select quotes, and omits others that don't help him make his point. He said this in his lecture about it on BYU tv:

So, letâ??s begin with the precise historical origin of the ban. We do not know for sure when the priesthood ban originated, or when it was first imposed. There are a few pieces of literature by LDS authors from the late 19th century and the early 20th century that suggest that the origin of the ban can be traced to events mentioned in the Pearl of Great Price.

There we read that Pharaoh, a descendant of Noah, had been cursed with regards to the priesthood. He was a descendant of Canaan, Noahâ??s grandson. And Canaan had been cursed regarding the priesthood and then, Pharaoh being a member of that lineage could not hold the priesthood. It so happens that here is why we donâ??t know the precise origin of the ban. We learn in Genesis that Ham, son of Noah, had four sons, and we know that Canaan, one of those sons, was cursed regarding the priesthood, which then leaves us with a simple question: What about the other three sons? And we have a simple answer: we donâ??t know.

We also learn in the Pearl of Great Price, Moses chapter 7, that there was a people called the people of Canaan(a) and these people committed genocide, they entirely wiped out another nation or another group of people and for that they were cursed withâ??the texts saysâ??a skin of blackness, and later the text, in the Pearl of Great Price says that the seed of Cain was black and had no place among the people of God, which at that point were the people of Enoch in the city of Enoch, which is Zion.

But notice (1) the text says nothing about the priesthood, and (2) we are dealing with a situation in which an entire group of people was cursed because they committed genocide; not because of any other apparent reason. Simply because they committed genocide, possibly in a cowardly manner.

And also the text also doesnâ??t specify if all of them had been cursed or if there were any members of that particular people, the people of Canaan(a), who were believers. And as far as the seed of Cain not having a place among the people of Enoch, we have to remember that the text states that Cainâ??s descendants lived in a society that was ruled by a murderous secret combination. And in a situation like that it is not a place where you would go teach the gospelâ??a people who commit murder for a living.

So we do not know the precise historical origin of the ban, and all our scriptures donâ??t say anything about it.

I'll bet, though, that when he and his family were taught the missionary discussions in 1972, they were given a "lineage lesson" like this:

After confirming the prior commitments with the investigator, continue on with the following dialogue.

We have explained some marvelous teachings of the gospel and of the Church of Jesus Christ. One very important principle of the Church of Jesus Christ is that it is always guided by revelation. Lets read what Christ said about revelation in his church. Read Matthew 16:15-17. According to verse 17, how is it that Peter knew that Christ was the son of God?

-Response-

Yes, Peter received revelation from God. Until that date men said that Christ was John the Baptist, or Jeremiah, or some other prophet. But what did Peter receive that gave him a certainty while others were wrong?

-Response-

Exactly. Revelation is so important that Christ himself explained that his Church would be built on the principle of revelation. Do you want to read verse 18? Do you think that Christ would build His eternal church around a mortal man?

-Response-

A church founded or dependent on Peter or any other man would be the church of Peter or the church of some other man. But whose is the church that Christ organized?

-Response-

In this verse Christ is speaking about something eternal on which he built his church. And this is the same eternal principle mentioned in verse 17. What principle is this?

-Response-

1. The Church of Jesus Christ is built on the rock of revelation. Exactly. Christ explained to his apostles that He built His Church on the rock of revelation. In your opinion, Brother Nunes, what is revelation?

-Response-

We can say, then, that revelation is communication between God and his servants on the earth. And why is revelation so important?

-Response-

Lets read Acts 13:2-3. How were Barnabas and Paul called to the ministry?

-Response-

Lets look at another example of revelation in the primitive church. In the first days of the church the gospel was preached only to the Jews. However, Peter had a dream in which he was ordered to go and preach to the family of the gentiles. This caused some conflicts in the church, but when Peter explained that he had been ordered by God to preach to the gentiles, the Church accepted this new teaching. Why did they accept this teaching?

-Response-

Then, on what principle was the Primitive Church founded and guided?

-Response -

2. All that the Church does and teaches is by revelation. When the Church was restored, who was called by God to receive revelation for the Church?

-Response-

But after the prophet Joseph Smith was martyred, could it be that the Church was to continue without divine guidance?

-Response-

Since that time of Joseph Smith there have always been prophets on the earth. As God said in Amos 3:7, â??Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.â? Thus, what does God do when he has something to reveal to the Church today?

-Response-

3. Revelation from God for the Church comes through the prophet. I know that today we have a true prophet, and that he is guided by God. Now, in the scriptures we see that Barnabas and Paul were called by revelation to receive the priesthood. Brother Nunes, in your opinion, what is the priesthood?

-Response-

Speaking about the priesthood, Paul said: â??And no man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.â? (Heb. 5:4) Lets return and see how Aaron was called. Here in Exodus 28:1 God was speaking about the prophet Moses. Read Exodus 28:1. According to this scripture, how was Aaron called?

-Response-

And still today, Brother Nunes, why do all men have to be called by revelation to receive the priesthood?

-Response-

4. A man must be called by God through revelation to receive the priesthood. As you already know, worth men in the Church after 12 years of age are called to receive the priesthood. And by what principle are they called?

-Response-

If a man was called by inspiration to receive the priesthood, should he accept this call?

-Response-

If you are called by a servant of God to receive the priesthood, will you accept this responsibility and blessing?

-Response-

5. If I am called I will accept the priesthood. Anciently, it was revealed who could receive the priesthood. We already read about Barnabas, Paul, and Aaron. It was also revealed who could not receive the priesthood. Would you like to read in the book of Abraham 1:26-27? [Mormon scripture - not in the Bible] What does verse 27 say about Pharaoh and the priesthood.

-Response-

Exactly, Brother Nunes. Pharaoh was a descendant of people who could not receive the priesthood. Lets examine this lineage to learn its origin. Are you acquainted with the story of Abel and Cain?

-Response-

Lets read this story in the Bible. Read Genesis 4:8-15. Cain and his descendants received a mark that distinguished them from all other peoples. This people, the descendants of Cain, for reasons not completely known to men, do not have the right to the priesthood. For example, it was revealed to Abraham that Pharaoh, being from this so called lineage of Cain, could not receive the priesthood. Brother Nunes, we have seen that Aaron, Barnabas, Paul, and others receive the priesthood because they were called by God by revelation. In the same manner, why have the prophets not given the priesthood to the lineage of Cain?

-Response-

In order to understand the mark put on Cain and to understand how the prophets distinguish this lineage, lets read Moses 7:22. "Moses 7:22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them." How was this lineage distinguished from the others?

-Response-

And concerning the priesthood, why was this group or this lineage different?

-Response-

6. God revealed anciently that the lineage of Cain could not receive the priesthood. In order to understand what God revealed about this people today, we need to go to the modern prophets. Do you want to read the underlined part of this pamphlet? Read the following part from the letter of the First Presidency published in the â??Priesthood Bulletin.â? Vol6. No. 1 - February 1970. â??Since the beginning of this dispensation, Joseph Smith and all of the successive presidents of the Church have taught that the Negroes, while spiritual children of a common Father, and descendants of our earthly parents Adam and Eve, still cannot receive the Priesthood, for reasons that we believe are known to God, but which He has not made completely known to men.â? What does this say there about the Negroes and the priesthood?

-Response-

Exactly. Negroes that honestly seek the truth and desire to join the church can be baptized. However, why does the Church not confer the Priesthood on them?

-Response-

7. God revealed that Negroes still cannot receive the priesthood. For this reason the priesthood is not actively preached to the lineage of Cain. The prophets have told us to preach the gospel to those that have the right to the priesthood. But lets read what god said about the Negroes in the future. Read the following paragraph from the letter of the First Presidency: â??President McKay also said that â??One day in the eternal plan of God, the Negro will be given the right to possess the Priesthood.â??â? What did the prophet say about the Negroes and the priesthood? -Response I know that this is true. And when that time comes, how will we know?

-Response-

8. In the future when it is revealed by God, Negroes will receive the priesthood. Do you accept that teaching that God revealed his will concerning his priesthood to his prophets, Mr. Nunes?

-Response-

Good, I know that this is the truth and that God really guides and directs the Church through modern revelation. Now, Mr. Nunes, do you know if any of your ancestors were Negro or descendants of Negroes?

-Response-

If in the future you discover that one of your ancestors was Negro will you tell your Branch President?

-Response-

If this happened do you think you would remain firm and faithful to the church and your covenants with God?

-Response-

end of lesson