Heiser on Barker in FR 19/1

[Lachoneus]

Sounds like I am consistent, the Bible does not reveal it was not "directly".

Sorry, but you are entirely inconsistent, as previously explained. All men have two parents, even Adam.

What you are describing still sounds very different than what Gen 2:7 reveals. There is no way it is describing "the spirit being Michael into the physical body".

That is exactly what it is describing, your denial notwithstanding.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Sorry, but you are entirely inconsistent, as previously explained. All men have two parents, even Adam.

Which scripture reveals Adam had two parents?

Clearly Luke 3:38 does NOT support your statement.

Clearly Genesis 2:7 does NOT support your statement.

That is exactly what it is describing, your denial notwithstanding.

What verses "exactly" describes "the spirit being Michael"?

[Lachoneus]

Which scripture reveals Adam had two parents?

Which scripture reveals the number of Noah's eyes, the number of Moses's toes, or the number of Joshua's nostrils? Did Elijah have a liver? Did Jacob have a bellybutton? Which of the sons listed in Luke 3:28-38 had no mother? These are not hard questions. My granddaughter, age 4, could answer them.

All men have two parents. This is easy to understand. If you cannot understand this simple sentence, then I am sorry.

[e=mc2]

THE obvious assumption Johnny makes is that if it is not mentioned in the Bible, it doesn't exist...... a really narrow and uneducated assumption all the way.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

All men have two parents. This is easy to understand. If you cannot understand this simple sentence, then I am sorry.

Adam does not have two parents. Adam was made, not born. Adam is not God's natural or literal Son. God is Adam's maker.

[Jersey Girl]

johnny,

For what it may be worth to you, I agree with your assertions regarding the creation of Adam per the Bible. However when you ask a question such as this:

Which scripture reveals Adam had two parents?

It makes me want to ask a question such as this:

Which scripture reveals the parents of Cain's wife?

Sorry, it just popped into my mind.

JG

[Jersey Girl]

Lachoneus

As previously stated, the Bible does not say "directly." You made up that part.

Do you think Adam was a clay statue? I believe he was a man and my ancestor. I am not a clay statue, nor was Adam. Men are born of two parents, a father and a mother, just as all the men in Luke 3:28-38 were, including Adam.

Why do you think that Adam would have to be a clay statue if made from the dust of the earth? Does your body not contain at least some of the same elements as the dust of the earth? If so, are you a clay statue?

JG

[Jersey Girl]

THE obvious assumption Johnny makes is that if it is not mentioned in the Bible, it doesn't exist...... a really narrow and uneducated assumption all the way.

That may be applicable in some cases, Kerry, but certainly not applicable in this one. The Bible is clear that God created Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed life into his nostrils. No Mother needed. You'd have to jump several high hurdles in logic to come up with a way to get over or around this one and make up stuff that isn't there along the way.

What you and others are attempting to forward here is akin to asserting that God needed a female in order to create the planets. In difference being that Genesis decribes a creator God who breathes life into his creation as he wills it to have life.

[Zakuska]

Lachoneus

Why do you think that Adam would have to be a clay statue if made from the dust of the earth? Does your body not contain at least some of the same elements as the dust of the earth? If so, are you a clay statue?

JG

Thats excatly the Point Jersey Girl. Theres a big difference how those molecules got into the Statue and how it got into you and I.

[Lachoneus]

Why do you think that Adam would have to be a clay statue if made from the dust of the earth? Does your body not contain at least some of the same elements as the dust of the earth? If so, are you a clay statue?

Exactly my point. Being made from the dust of the earth does not mean that one is a clay statue. Being made from the dust of the earth includes being born as a living being, as we were and as was Adam.

[Lachoneus]

That may be applicable in some cases, Kerry, but certainly not applicable in this one. The Bible is clear that God created Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed life into his nostrils. No Mother needed. You'd have to jump several high hurdles in logic to come up with a way to get over or around this one and make up stuff that isn't there along the way.

Sorry but the "No Mother needed" statement is merely something you have read into the scripture. Talk about making up stuff that isn't there. On the other hand, in Luke 3:28-38 we have a long list of fathers and sons, including Adam and God. Based solely on the biblical text, please explain which of them did not have a mother and why?

What you and others are attempting to forward here is akin to asserting that God needed a female in order to create the planets. In difference being that Genesis decribes a creator God who breathes life into his creation as he wills it to have life.

I have already addressed this assertion. We are the offspring of God (Acts 17:28-29). Planets are not. Men have two parents. Planets do not. Gen 2:7 describes a father giving life to his son. Adam was not a clay statue. He was a man, conceived and born of two parents just like all men.

Thats excatly the Point Jersey Girl. Theres a big difference how those molecules got into the Statue and how it got into you and I.

Ditto.

[Ron Beron]

That may be applicable in some cases, Kerry, but certainly not applicable in this one. The Bible is clear that God created Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed life into his nostrils. No Mother needed. You'd have to jump several high hurdles in logic to come up with a way to get over or around this one and make up stuff that isn't there along the way.

What you and others are attempting to forward here is akin to asserting that God needed a female in order to create the planets. In difference being that Genesis decribes a creator God who breathes life into his creation as he wills it to have life.

Perhaps not a mother, but certainly a feminine component of God known as hokhma or wisdom as evidenced by many scriptures...

"He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion." Jer. 10:12

"O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches." Ps. 104:24"The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens." Prov. 3:19

We are also informed in the scriptures that this semi-deity was also present at the creation of man and the earth.

Prov. 8:27-30 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

And further she is seen as having a relationship with humans

vs. 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men

.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Exactly my point. Being made from the dust of the earth does not mean that one is a clay statue. Being made from the dust of the earth includes being born as a living being, as we were and as was Adam.

"begin made" does NOT include "being born".

This discussion is continued at the following thread at Post #34

We Are The Same Genus As God, The Same Species!

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=28689

[Jersey Girl]

Exactly my point. Being made from the dust of the earth does not mean that one is a clay statue. Being made from the dust of the earth includes being born as a living being, as we were and as was Adam.

Lachoneus,

With all due respect, I don't think that you actually have a point other than the attempt to fit LDS theology into what the Bible describes. According to the Bible, Adam wasn't "born", he was "made" as was all creation. Nowhere in the Bible do we see a statement that suggests "And God knew his wife".

Next you'll be telling me that being "born of water" is about baptism. Adam, by the way, was not born of water. Reading the Bible for what it does say, is always a good idea.

[Lachoneus]

With all due respect, I don't think that you actually have a point other than the attempt to fit LDS theology into what the Bible describes. According to the Bible, Adam wasn't "born", he was "made" as was all creation. Nowhere in the Bible do we see a statement that suggests "And God knew his wife".

With all due respect, it is obvious that you are not sufficiently acquainted with the Bible. In another thread I posted earlier today the following concerning 1 Cor 15:45. Johnny cited this verse as demonstrating that Adam was "made" and not "born."

The Greek word translated "made" in this verse is the word egeneto. This word is a past tense of the Greek word gignomai. The Greek word gignomai means "1. of persons, to be born . . .." (Liddel and Scott's An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon 164 (7th Edition, 1972)) Notice that this is the first meaning of the word. In other words, the very word on which you rely to make the point that Adam was "made" and not "born" actually turns out to mean "to be born." Therefore, 1 Cor 15:45 actually says, "Adam was born (egeneto) a living soul," just as has previously been stated to you at length. Thus, your entire point about the difference in meaning between "made" and "born" vanishes and actually ends up making my point.

Reading the Bible for what it does say, is always a good idea.

Indeed! You should try it some time.