Heiser on Barker in FR 19/1

[Zakuska]

Heavenly Mother anyone?

Gal. 4: 26

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

[MormonMason]

MormonMason,

What is your interpretation of Col 1:17? Col.1

[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

There are exceptions even to each of these. For instance, he does not subsist from himself and he is not before himself. Neither is he, in consistency with what we have of the Bible, existent before the Father. But, back to the point: Does all things really mean all things here and how do you apply that to Colossians 1:20?

In Neh 9:6 do you believe that Lord made heaven?

I believe that Yahweh created the heavens of which this universe is comprised. This does not include the angels, for nowhere does any text explicitly say that Yahweh created angels in the Old Testament text that has not been altered to some degree and the New Testament nowhere says that Christ created angels. It says thrones, dominions, principalities and powers, which some claim are angels but which are listed separately from angels by New Testament authors in other places. Yet, the one scripture that could be marshalled to imply that Christ created angels does not even so much as contain the word angel.

However, your line of questioning does not change the fact that the Old Testament has been altered for theological/political reasons by the predecessors, contemporaries and successors of the Pharisees to say something it did not originally say.

Please explain how "The actual structure of the text kills your argument from that text" in Psalm 148.

It is simple. Take the accents, the vowels, and the stops added by the Pharisees to the Hebrew text out of the picture and look at the text as it is. Any further questions?

The verses that follow verse 20 tells us the subset of all things who are reconciled to God through Christ.

The verses that follow are the start of a wholly new unit of thought, verses 15-20 being a poetic text all its own apparently drawn upon by the author of Colossians to construct his text. Nonetheless, it does not change things. If the following verses are subsets of the previous unit of thought, that still leaves the other subset proposed, with which you seem not to wish to deal. After all, do you not claim that all things really means all things in the Bible? As I said, the second you allow that it does not anywhere else, you undercut your entire argument. It is even worse when the phrase is used several times over the entire length of the selfsame, very long Greek sentence.

Incidentally, you are more than welcome to stick to your NAB in discussing this subject with me. I have a copy. I keep it not too far away from my copy of the Catechism and Lectionary for Mass. When I see translation problems as I come across them, I'll be sure to point them out. They are legion in this translation.

[Lachoneus]

It reveals that in the heavenly city angels are unique from the "the spirit of just men".

Being different or "unique from" does not mean that they are a "unique heavenly species." Men and angels are the same species and the scriptures say nothing to the contrary.

[johnny]

MormonMason,

I believe that Yahweh created the heavens of which this universe is comprised.

Where were the angels before Yahweh created the heavens?

Any further questions?

Are angels created by a command or are they born of heavenly parents?

If angels are born of heavenly parents do you know of any scriptures that would support this?

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Being different or "unique from" does not mean that they are a "unique heavenly species." Men and angels are the same species and the scriptures say nothing to the contrary.

Angels and men are different: angels were created from a command, and man was created from the dust of the ground.

[Lachoneus]

Angels and men are different: angels were created from a command, and man was created from the dust of the ground.

Men and angels are the same species. You have said nothing that establishes anything to the contrary.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Men and angels are the same species. You have said nothing that establishes anything to the contrary.

Define species, if you can support your defination with a Bible verses.

I have established angels and men are created differently.

[Lachoneus]

Define species, if you can support your defination with a Bible verses.

You are the one who claimed that angels are a unique "species" (see post #46). Please provide a definition from the Bible for your use of the word species.

I have established angels and men are created differently.

No, you have not.

[urroner]

Luke 2

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Did they really have ALL things in common and were their possessions and goods parted to ALL men?

Luke 21

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my nameâ??s sake.

38 And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

They were to be hated by ALL men? Did they hate themselves also. Christ is also a man, being 100%human, did he hate them also?

Did all the people come to hear him? Does this "all" include the people in Northern Europe or those who lived in the Western Hemisphere?

I guess all-in-all that "all" doesn't always mean "all" all the time.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

No, you have not.

Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", in other words the totality of what exists was created. Angels are the hosts of heaven, they are part of the all things in heaven. Things in heaven were created by a command. Later, man was formed later from the dust of the earth.

Angels are different than man because they are not made up of the earth. Angels are spirit creatures and men are spirit and body. Angels and men were not born of heavenly parents they were created by the Father, the Father generated them.

[johnny]

urroner,

I guess all-in-all that "all" doesn't always mean "all" all the time.

Do you think Genesis 1:1 is speaking of "all things" when it says "heaven and the earth", in other words the totality of what exists ... please explain?

[Sargon]

Do you think Genesis 1:1 is speaking of "all things" when it says "heaven and the earth", in other words the totality of what exists ... please explain?

No Johnny. Heaven and earth means exactly what it says. You should at least be able to agree that God did not create ALL things, since God is a thing himself, however immaterial you believe him to be.

Sargon

[johnny]

Sargon,

No Johnny. Heaven and earth means exactly what it says. You should at least be able to agree that God did not create ALL things, since God is a thing himself, however immaterial you believe him to be.

Genesis 1:1 affirms that the eternal God gave a beginning to all that exists outside of himself. The totality of what exists depends on the One who gives it being. The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety.

[urroner]

urroner,

Do you think Genesis 1:1 is speaking of "all things" when it says "heaven and the earth", in other words the totality of what exists ... please explain?

I think that Genesis 1:1 is talking about the creation of this world and not necessarily all of God's creations which include the multiverse.

[johnny]

urroner,

I think that Genesis 1:1 is talking about the creation of this world and not necessarily all of God's creations which include the multiverse.

When you say "this world", are you including heaven in this creation since Genesis 1:1 says "heaven and the earth"?

If angels are in heaven, are they part of this creation?

If not then could please explain where they were before the heavens were created.

[MormonMason]

johnny, johnny, johnny...answering questions with other questions? Please try to stay focused.

Where were the angels before Yahweh created the heavens?

I suppose they were with God before the earth's heavens were formed. And, yes, when it says heavens and earth in relation to the creation, it is referring to this earth's heavens. The earth, of course, was formed billions of years ago but also billions of years after the initial creation of this universe from chaotic, primordial energy and matter.

Are angels created by a command or are they born of heavenly parents?

Both. Angel is a functional title held by Yahweh, angels and even mortal men. (See for example Genesis chapters 18-19, 48:15-16). Additionally, men are called the offspring of God (Acts 17:28-29, and the Greek of the passage literally says that, genos meaning descendants of of a common ancestor), Adam is the son of God (Luke 3:38), Christ and his brothers (mankind) are all of one origin (Hebrews 2:10-11, NAB, the Official Catholic Bible in English), and angels are sometimes also referred to as sons of God. In the fullest sense all creation was created by the command of God in one way or another.

Before you continue in your attempted separation of angels from men by formation and by the mere spoken word, I would suggest that you first consult Judith 16:13-14:

A new hymn I will sing to my God. O Lord, great are you and glorious, wonderful in power and unsurpassable. Let your every creature serve you; for you spoke, and they were made, You sent forth your spirit, and they were created; no one can resist your word.

So you know, the word translated creature is the Greek word meaning creation. So, according to one of your own deuterocanonical texts, God created all creation by speaking. But then, there is a limitation factor on the words all and every in the Bible, now isn't there.

If angels are born of heavenly parents do you know of any scriptures that would support this?

The Bible as we now have it identifies angels as sons of God. I know of modern scripture, both canonized and non-canonized but official nonetheless, that supports this but you probably won't accept it. Just because the Bible did not mention something does not mean it is not true or that it did not happen. We do not have an untouched Bible because it has been altered in a number of places for theological/political reasons, nor do we have a complete collection of the sacred texts of ancient times. A number of texts cited by other biblical authors as sacred are now missing.

Now, back to the main questions I originally asked. Does all things always mean everything? Does the phrase all things at the end of the sentence in the passage in Colossians mean the same thing as at the beginning and middle of the sentence? Where is the word angels in Colossians 1:16-17? Why are angels listed as a separate class of beings from principalities and powers elsewhere in the Bible if these are angels as you claim?

And now, a couple new questions raised by this discussion:

1. What does the word origin mean?

2. What does the scripture mean when it says that men and Christ are of one origin?

[MormonMason]

johnny,

The Semitic peoples thought of the expanse of heaven as a dome stretched or hammered out and covering a flat earth. Thus, when we see terms like windows of heaven (part of the ancient semitic explanation for rain, the other part being the waters above the expanse idea to explain the blue color of the sky), the heavens, and the like in the Bible, the terms are most often referring to what is attached to this earth and not anything else. The scriptures most often have to be read in that context. The ancients did not have the metaphysical concepts and astonomical knowledge we have today and to read those into the Bible is to falsify its intended meaning.

[johnny]

MormonMason,

I suppose they were with God before the earth's heavens were formed.

You are not making sense, if they were with God were they in the heavens?

Both. Angel is a functional title held by Yahweh, angels and even mortal men. (See for example Genesis chapters 18-19, 48:15-16). Additionally, men are called the offspring of God (Acts 17:28-29, and the Greek of the passage literally says that, genos meaning descendants of of a common ancestor), Adam is the son of God (Luke 3:38), Christ and his brothers (mankind) are all of one origin (Hebrews 2:10-11, NAB, the Official Catholic Bible in English), and angels are sometimes also referred to as sons of God. In the fullest sense all creation was created by the command of God in one way or another.

They are sons because the Father generated or fathered them, they are not sons because they were born of heaven parents. When you say "all creation was created by the command of God" do you mean it literally, if not please explain.

So you know, the word translated creature is the Greek word meaning creation. So, according to one of your own deuterocanonical texts, God created all creation by speaking. But then, there is a limitation factor on the words all and every in the Bible, now isn't there.

Thanks for making my point ... I would agree God created all creation by speaking. Angels were not created by heavenly parents.

Now, back to the main questions I originally asked. Does all things always mean everything?

In scripture "all things" can mean everything and in other cases it does not mean everything, each verse needs to looked at.

In Genesis 1:1 the scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety.

1. What does the word origin mean?

2. What does the scripture mean when it says that men and Christ are of one origin?

Origin means the source. 1Cor 8:6 says "the Father, of whom are all things".

[johnny]

MormonMason,

The Semitic peoples thought of the expanse of heaven as a dome stretched or hammered out and covering a flat earth. Thus, when we see terms like windows of heaven (part of the ancient semitic explanation for rain, the other part being the waters above the expanse idea to explain the blue color of the sky), the heavens, and the like in the Bible, the terms are most often referring to what is attached to this earth and not anything else. The scriptures most often have to be read in that context. The ancients did not have the metaphysical concepts and astonomical knowledge we have today and to read those into the Bible is to falsify its intended meaning.

In Genesis 1:1 what was before "God created the heaven and the earth"?

Where was God before the heavens was created?

Where were the angels before the heavens were created?

I believe Genesis 1:1 affirms that the eternal God gave a beginning to all that exists outside of himself. The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety.

I you don't believe the above please provide some scriptures to support your conclusion ... thanks.

[Lachoneus]

Angels are different than man because they are not made up of the earth. Angels are spirit creatures and men are spirit and body. Angels and men were not born of heavenly parents they were created by the Father, the Father generated them.

Angels are messengers. All angels are men, children generated by our Heavenly Father. Some angels are spirits, not yet having received the resurrection. Other angels are resurrected beings and have physical bodies.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Angels are messengers. All angels are men, children generated by our Heavenly Father. Some angels are spirits, not yet having received the resurrection. Other angels are resurrected beings and have physical bodies.

You say "children generated by our Heavenly Father", please describe this generating process. If possiable please provide some scriptures to support your answer.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

urroner,

When you say "this world", are you including heaven in this creation since Genesis 1:1 says "heaven and the earth"?

If angels are in heaven, are they part of this creation?

If not then could please explain where they were before the heavens were created.

Johnny it is impossible with out further revelation to say for certain that God in gen1:1 is talking about the known universe. That scritpure is ambiguous at best. You cannot say for certain that your view is what is meant. Nor can we say with taht verse alone that our view is correct.

The best part is we as LDS have additonal revelation that would seem to clear up the matter. Care to explore it?

[MormonMason]

MormonMason,

You are not making sense, if they were with God were they in the heavens?

I am making plenty of sense. Go back and reread my comments a little more carefully.

They are sons because the Father generated or fathered them, they are not sons because they were born of heaven parents. When you say "all creation was created by the command of God" do you mean it literally, if not please explain.

"Generated or fathered them." you say. I would agree. The only place where we seem to disagree is as to method. Just because the Bible is not explicit does not make it not so. Besides, as we now know, the Old Testament has been rewritten for theological/political reasons. The same can be said for portions of the New Testament as well. In addition, the Catholic Church decided what was and was not to be included in the Bible, and got rid of the rest. Obviously, this happening, it is no surprise to me that you would not see anything exlicit as to method of generation or fathering. Yet, it is clear that we are the offspring of God, the genos of the Father, descendants of a common ancestor, namely God, who is the father of our spirits. We have additional knowledge besides the Bible that gives us clarity for that which is implied.

Thanks for making my point ... I would agree God created all creation by speaking. Angels were not created by heavenly parents.

That's a laugh. First you went about trying to distinguish men from angels as the spoken word from the dirt. Now you say I am making your point? You are a funny man, johnny. All I did was substantiate our point, which was that in the fullest sense, God spoke and it was done, regardless of methodology. The interesting thing is that the Hebrew bara' (English: he created) is also used in the sense of begetting of children in the Bible. Be careful what you discount as truth.

In scripture "all things" can mean everything and in other cases it does not mean everything, each verse needs to looked at.

In some cases looking at a single verse here and a single verse there might be helpful. However, this is not so in this case because Colossians 1:15-20 is one single sentence! So, back to one of my initial questions to you which you still have not answered: are you saying that God said a phrase in the middle of the sentence and then turned around and changed the meaning of the same phrase used toward the end of the very same sentence? If you are, then my answer to you on your question regarding where God was when he was creating the earth and its heavens would be that he was sitting on a wall while all his angels were dancing on the head of a pin.

In Genesis 1:1 the scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety.

No, that is not what the text is really saying as a whole. You must look at the Hebrew and see for yourself. Many translations hold out the In the beginning phrase (actually a single word in Hebrew) as an absolute. When I look at the text I see a construct, as do the old Jewish commentators. This means that the creation spoken of here at Genesis is only that of the earth and of its connected heavens, not the entire universe and creation of God, and has no reference to the initial creation. It also makes clear that this creation was not from nothing but from chaotic, primordial matter, the chaos of the ancient semites.

This is more in keeping with what God told Moses before he revealed the creation in what we now have of Genesis 1:

And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you....

(Pearl of Great Price, Moses 1:33-35)

Origin means the source. 1Cor 8:6 says "the Father, of whom are all things".

Thank you for answering the first question. Now, taking your answer in the first question, answer the second question about the fact that Christ and those he sanctified being all of one origin. I await your reply.

[MormonMason]

MormonMason,

In Genesis 1:1 what was before "God created the heaven and the earth"?

The Bible is silent on this matter. Modern-day revelation is clear that there were millions of earths before this one. We also know from astronomy that before this earth and its solar system was formed from the remains of exploded stars, there was another star system there, perhaps with planets of its own.

Where was God before the heavens was created?

Where were the angels before the heavens were created?

As I said, if what you seem to be saying about the use of the phrase all things in Colossians 1:16-20 is true, he was sitting on a wall and all the angels were dancing on the head of a pin. If you will admit that the phrase in the middle of the sentence has the same meaning as the same phrase at the end of the very same sentence in Colossians 1:15-20, then I will answer you seriously.

I believe Genesis 1:1 affirms that the eternal God gave a beginning to all that exists outside of himself. The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety.

You may believe it but this is one of several interpretations available for Genesis 1:1. The structure of the sentence seems to imply otherwise and solidify the belief that Genesis 1:1 only applies to this earth and its heavens.

I you don't believe the above please provide some scriptures to support your conclusion ... thanks.

I cite Genesis 1:1-3 in the Hebrew, understanding bre'shith bara' 'Elohim as a construct with the whole of Genesis 1 as my support.

There may be other scriptures that you might want to use that might speak of the very beginning of creation but Genesis 1:1 isn't one of them in my view (and that of many others).

[johnny]

MormonMason,

I am making plenty of sense. Go back and reread my comments a little more carefully.

Explain how an angel can create heaven if an angel is in heaven? To me it only makes sense if the one doing the creating is outside its creation.

"Generated or fathered them." you say. I would agree. The only place where we seem to disagree is as to method. Just because the Bible is not explicit does not make it not so.

I believe the Bible is explicit, it describes the things in heaven being creating with a command.

We have additional knowledge besides the Bible that gives us clarity for that which is implied.

The Catholic Church also has additional knowledge beside the Bible to give clarify.

The interesting thing is that the Hebrew bara' (English: he created) is also used in the sense of begetting of children in the Bible.

The interesting thing is that the Hebrew bara' (English: he created) is also used in the sense of begetting of children in the Bible.

"created" is applied in other senses than begetting of children.

In some cases looking at a single verse here and a single verse there might be helpful. However, this is not so in this case because Colossians 1:15-20 is one single sentence!

Do you think it is helpful to look at 1Cor 8:6 to understand Colossians 1:15-20?

What is interpretation of 1Cor 8:6?

1Cor 8

[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

This means that the creation spoken of here at Genesis is only that of the earth and of its connected heavens, not the entire universe and creation of God, and has no reference to the initial creation. It also makes clear that this creation was not from nothing but from chaotic, primordial matter, the chaos of the ancient semites.

Are the angels part of this "connected heavens" that are created, if not please explain?

Thank you for answering the first question. Now, taking your answer in the first question, answer the second question about the fact that Christ and those he sanctified being all of one origin. I await your reply.

The Father is the origin or source of all. The Son is begotten of the Father, men are the offspring of the Father.