Heiser on Barker in FR 19/1

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ram,

Johnny it is impossible with out further revelation to say for certain that God in gen1:1 is talking about the known universe. That scritpure is ambiguous at best. You cannot say for certain that your view is what is meant. Nor can we say with taht verse alone that our view is correct.

The best part is we as LDS have additonal revelation that would seem to clear up the matter. Care to explore it?

I would say that the Catholic Church has additional revelaion to clarify Gen 1:1 ... since this is getting off-topic, it might be best not explore it on this thread.

[johnny]

MormonMason,

The Bible is silent on this matter. Modern-day revelation is clear that there were millions of earths before this one. We also know from astronomy that before this earth and its solar system was formed from the remains of exploded stars, there was another star system there, perhaps with planets of its own.

I don't believe the Bible is silent on this issue. Genesis 1:1 reveals that God gave a beginning to all (heaven and the earth) that exists outside of himself.

As I said, if what you seem to be saying about the use of the phrase all things in Colossians 1:16-20 is true, he was sitting on a wall and all the angels were dancing on the head of a pin.

I would say that the Father was "above all" (Eph 4:6).

You may believe it but this is one of several interpretations available for Genesis 1:1. The structure of the sentence seems to imply otherwise and solidify the belief that Genesis 1:1 only applies to this earth and its heavens.

The angels are part of these heavens.

There may be other scriptures that you might want to use that might speak of the very beginning of creation but Genesis 1:1 isn't one of them in my view (and that of many others).

This view of the Catholic Church is as such:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm#II

290 - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth": [Gen 1:1] three things are affirmed in these first words of Scripture: the eternal God gave a beginning to all that exists outside of himself; he alone is Creator (the verb "create" - Hebrew bara - always has God for its subject). The totality of what exists (expressed by the formula "the heavens and the earth") depends on the One who gives it being

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p5.htm

326 - The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety. It also indicates the bond, deep within creation, that both unites heaven and earth and distinguishes the one from the other: "the earth" is the world of men, while "heaven" or "the heavens" can designate both the firmament and God's own "place" - "our Father in heaven" and consequently the "heaven" too which is eschatological glory. Finally, "heaven" refers to the saints and the "place" of the spiritual creatures, the angels, who surround God

[Zakuska]

You know Johhny... I think the Catholic Church is placing too many eggs in one basket...

According to Joseph Smith, Genesis 1:1 has an alternate reading... so it appears that You are basing a doctrine on a corrupted text.

(How's that for an example Rhinomelon? )

Can anyone versed in the greek manuscripts cooberate what Joseph Smith says here?

I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible; [bERESHITH*] I will make a comment on the very first sentence of the history of the creation in the Bible

[Sargon]

Why does Johnny quote the Catholic Church as if by doing so adds any weight to his arguments around here?

"I believe X and as support for this belief I will now quote myself."

Sargon

[Lachoneus]

Can anyone versed in the greek manuscripts cooberate what Joseph Smith says here?

Genesis was written in Hebrew.

Try this article by John Tvedtnes, The King Follett Discourse in the Light of Ancient and Medieval Jewish and Christian Beliefs.

[Lachoneus]

You say "children generated by our Heavenly Father", please describe this generating process. If possiable please provide some scriptures to support your answer.

As to the spirit, God is our literal Father. Deut 14:1, Ps 82:6, Mal 2:10, Acts 17:29, Rom 8:16, Heb 12:9.

As to the body, God is the originator. Gen 1:26, 2:7, 5:1, Luke 3:38.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

As to the spirit, God is our literal Father. Deut 14:1, Ps 82:6, Mal 2:10, Acts 17:29, Rom 8:16, Heb 12:9.

As to the body, God is the originator. Gen 1:26, 2:7, 5:1, Luke 3:38.

How do the above verses describe the process of generation ... do any of these verses support the Mormon teaching of heavenly parents?

[Lachoneus]

How do the above verses describe the process of generation ... do any of these verses support the Mormon teaching of heavenly parents?

There is only one way to be a literal Father.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

There is only one way to be a literal Father.

Scripture does not say "literal Father", it says Father. One can be a Father by generating.

[Zakuska]

Genesis was written in Hebrew.

Try this article by John Tvedtnes, The King Follett Discourse in the Light of Ancient and Medieval Jewish and Christian Beliefs.

Hebrew... yes you are correct... :Blush :

Thanks for the king.

Genesis 1:1-3

In a sermon delivered on 5 January 1841 in Nauvoo, Joseph Smith, commenting on Genesis 1:2, declared that "In the translation, 'without form and void' it should read 'empty and desolate.' The word 'created' should be formed or organized."30 A number of modern Bible translations support the idea. For example, Ephraim A. Speiser preferred to read Genesis 1:1-2, "When God set about to create heaven and earth, the world being then a formless waste."31 The New English Bible reads "In the beginning of creation."

Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitshaq, better known as Rashi (A.D. 1040-1105), one of the most respected Jewish Bible commentators, argued that the use of the construct form of the first word of the Bible, tyvr (r?'

[Zakuska]

Lachoneus,

Scripture does not say "literal Father", it says Father. One can be a Father by generating.

But Adam was "Begotten By God".

Luke 3: 38

38 Which was the ason of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Check the Greek under that.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.p...;version=KJV#38

Lachoneus,

How do the above verses describe the process of generation ... do any of these verses support the Mormon teaching of heavenly parents?

Where theres a Father... there is always a Mother close by...

Gal. 4: 26

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

[Lachoneus]

Scripture does not say "literal Father", it says Father. One can be a Father by generating.

As Zak points out, God was the father of Adam in the same manner in which Adam was the father of Seth. Luke 3:38. Our bodies are descended from Adam's body and, therefore, from God's body.

As to the spirit, Acts 17:29 clearly teaches that we are the literal children (race, species) of God.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

As Zak points out, God was the father of Adam in the same manner in which Adam was the father of Seth. Luke 3:38. Our bodies are descended from Adam's body and, therefore, from God's body.

God was the father of Adam, who was the mother of Adam?

As to the spirit, Acts 17:29 clearly teaches that we are the literal children (race, species) of God.

Which verse says "literal children"?

[urroner]

I haven't read the whole thread, but has Johnny answered any questions?

[Lachoneus]

God was the father of Adam, who was the mother of Adam?

God's Wife. For every father there is a mother, as illustrated by this question. Notice in Gen 2:24 that Adam left both his father and his mother when he married Eve.

Which verse says "literal children"?

In verses 28 and 29, the English word "offspring" is a translation of the Greek genos, which means "child," "race," and "species." There is nothing figurative about this; just as God is not the figurative father of Adam.

I haven't read the whole thread, but has Johnny answered any questions?

Almost.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

God's Wife. For every father there is a mother, as illustrated by this question. Notice in Gen 2:24 that Adam left both his father and his mother when he married Eve.

Gen 2:24 does not say that Adam left both his father and his mother. The verse simply says "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife".

In verses 28 and 29, the English word "offspring" is a translation of the Greek genos, which means "child," "race," and "species." There is nothing figurative about this; just as God is not the figurative father of Adam.

I have no problem with the word "offspring".

God is the father of Adam, God created Adam.

[Lachoneus]

Gen 2:24 does not say that Adam left both his father and his mother. The verse simply says "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife".

"That" is the fact that Adam left his father and mother. "That is why" men do this, because Adam did.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

"That" is the fact that Adam left his father and mother. "That is why" men do this, because Adam did.

Which verse talks about Adam's mother?

In verse 24 the writer is stressing the fact of the conjugal union, the writer is not saying Adam has a mother.

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

God was the father of Adam, who was the mother of Adam?

Um, Mrs. God?

Johnny:

Which verse talks about Adam's mother?

There isn't one. But the earthly analogy is on par with the heavenly one, if earthly PARENTS (plural) are in likeness of heaven, then the obvious is that there is heavenly parents. No it's not explicitly spelled out in the Genesis account, but it dang sure is in other Ancient Near Eastern Literatures, of which perhaps influenced Genesis. You already know this though.

[johnny]

e=mc2,

There isn't one. But the earthly analogy is on par with the heavenly one, if earthly PARENTS (plural) are in likeness of heaven, then the obvious is that there is heavenly parents.

I would agree there isn't one. Your analogy is not consistent with scripture.

[Lachoneus]

In verse 24 . . . the writer is not saying Adam has a mother.

Of course he is. "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, . . .." (Genesis 2:24) Adam is a man. He became the example other men should follow. Other men cannot follow an example that did not happen. See, e.g., post #1 here.

However, Genesis 2:24 not only states that the man left his father, the account specifically notes that the man also left his mother.

I believe that this often ignored element suggests that in an earlier form, the Eden story involved a depiction of Adam leaving not only his divine father but also his divine mother. This observation would explain the use of the divine plural that appears in Genesis 3:22 . . ..

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Of course he is. "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, . . .." (Genesis 2:24) Adam is a man. He became the example other men should follow. Other men cannot follow an example that did not happen.

Have you read the creation account of Adam in Genesis ... please explain how "his mother" fits in the description below.

Gen.2

[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[8] And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

[Zakuska]

According to Paul... Gods wife name is Jerusalem.

[Lachoneus]

Have you read the creation account of Adam in Genesis

Of course, have you?

... please explain how "his mother" fits in the description below.

Gen.2

Was Adam a man, or a clay sculpture? Men have two parents, a father and a mother. Sculptures have no parents, not even fathers.

Brigham Young once explained that Heavenly Father and His Wife "had lived, died and been resurrected before they came here and they came with immortal bodies, and had to partake of the fruits of this Earth in order to bring forth mortal bodies, or natural bodies, that their seed might be of the dust of this Earth as they were of the dust of the earth from which they came.â? (2 Journal of Samuel W. Richards 215 (25 Mar 1855))

BTW, where are all the mothers in Luke 3:24-38?

[MormonMason]

MormonMason,

Explain how an angel can create heaven if an angel is in heaven? To me it only makes sense if the one doing the creating is outside its creation.

I have said nothing about angels creating heaven. It is obvious that you still do not understand what I am saying even though I have been as clear as crystal. Go back and read my comments again.

I believe the Bible is explicit, it describes the things in heaven being creating with a command.

There is nothing of a command in Genesis 1. Each 'day' of creation, however, is preceded by a command.

The Catholic Church also has additional knowledge beside the Bible to give clarify.

Yes, they do claim that. However, just because something is claimed does not necessarily make it true.

"created" is applied in other senses than begetting of children.

Yes it is but in several cases in the Bible it is clear that the term does mean begetting of children. When the Bible says that Jacob was created, the term most definitely does mean procreation.

Do you think it is helpful to look at 1Cor 8:6 to understand Colossians 1:15-20?

What is interpretation of 1Cor 8:6?

1Cor 8

[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Even with this passage there is a limitation to the term all things. God the Father did not create himself. Other than that, the passage helps nothing as to Colossians 1:15-20. You still have not answered the questions I have asked regarding the meaning of all things in the first part of the sentence and all things in the last part of the very same sentence. Colossians 1:15-20 is all one sentence in the Greek. Do you or do you not believe that God, like Humpty Dumpty, changes the meanings of words in the selfsame sentence, and do you or do you not admit that there are exceptions to the meaning of the term all things?

Are the angels part of this "connected heavens" that are created, if not please explain?

No, they are not. They existed before the earth had a sky and before the earth existed. The term the heavens means the skies and skies as they now exist did not exist before the earth had an atmosphere. That is why the Hebrews did not just say heavens, but they also said heavens of the heavens in other places. There are more than one heaven, which is why the plurals exist and why the Hebrews would double terms to describe higher things. They did not have a precise term for the heaven where God lives just as Hebrew did not have precise terms for time like we do today.

Genesis 1:1 does not speak of the heaven where God lives and where he existed before the creation of this earth and its solar system. It speaks only of the creation of this earth and its heavens that are attached to it, not the heaven where God and angels dwell. You may try all you want to bend Genesis 1:1 to your will but there is nothing in the passage that is precise about anything. The structure of the sentence, particularly if we consider the very first word in the Bible in a constuct sense, leans more to the LDS view than that promulgated by the Catholic Church.

The Father is the origin or source of all. The Son is begotten of the Father, men are the offspring of the Father.

Begotten and offspring are synonymous terms. We are the offpsring of God because we are descendants of a common ancestor (the meaning of the Greek word genos in Acts 17:28-29), namely, God the Father. You are closer than you think.