LifeOnaPlate Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 I have seen a particular quote from the Millenial Star on several websites of break-off Mormon "fundamentalist" groups. It is attributed to a few different people, and even cited as being on a different page than it actually is. In the actual Millenial Star I find no attribution, and wonder if anyone knows who wrote it. Perhaps it was the current editor of the paper at that time? Anyway, here it is:"We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything that they were told to do by those who preside over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God...would despise the idea. Others in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves." Attributed to Apostle Samuel Richards, Millennial Star, 14:393-395Also Attributed to Joseph Smith on the breakoff group websites. Its actual location is in The Millenial Star volume 14, number 38, page 593.Here is a link to the pages.So who is the author of the quote? (Parenthetically, I find the useage of the quote by splinter groups to be out of context of the original quote. Read the entire editorial on Priesthood, it is apparent. For example, they leave out the preceeding part: "...the question is sometimes asked,- to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood...[then the quote continues as above.] )(Second parenthetical: I believe this concept is pretty self-evident; that we ought not blindly do whatever our leaders ask us to do, and I would like to dedicate this thread to the memory of our good friend and suicide bomber Tal Bachman, or "Talibachman," as he likes to be called.)
Hammer Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 It begs one to ask-- Who is the ultimate Priesthood? God? If so, then men on earth holding the priesthood are held in all their statements as subbordinate to what God states IF WHAT GOD STATES IS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT MEN HAVE STATED.IF HOWEVER, men are stating what God has given them, and you don't follow, it is the same as if you are disobeying God when you disobey these men of the priesthood leadership.
LifeOnaPlate Posted July 20, 2007 Author Posted July 20, 2007 It begs one to ask-- Who is the ultimate Priesthood? God? If so, then men on earth holding the priesthood are held in all their statements as subbordinate to what God states IF WHAT GOD STATES IS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT MEN HAVE STATED.IF HOWEVER, men are stating what God has given them, and you don't follow, it is the same as if you are disobeying God when you disobey these men of the priesthood leadership.Agreed. Now if we only knew the writer of the quote!
Tsuzuki Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 (Second parenthetical: I believe this concept is pretty self-evident; that we ought not blindly do whatever our leaders ask us to do, and I would like to dedicate this thread to the memory of our good friend Tal Bachman, the suicide bomber.)
California Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 Brigham Young said that people should pray before they took whatever he said as revelation. That they should pray to know whether it was true. I think that the leadership speculates more than we think and I don't think God's plan is to blindly follow, I don't think he wants us to be sheep. He wants us to be independant, that is why the Holy Ghost is accessible to everyone that wants to receive it and is worthy of it.
LifeOnaPlate Posted July 20, 2007 Author Posted July 20, 2007 Either of these should work:"Some may say, Brethren, you who lead the Church, we have all confidence in you, we are not in the least afraid but what everything will go right under your superintendence; all the business matters will be transacted right; and if brother Brigham is satisfied with it, I am. I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves, for this would strengthen the faith that is within them. Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are, this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord. Every man and woman in this kingdom ought to be satisfied with what we do, but they never should be satisfied without asking the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, whether what we do is right." (Brigham Young, October 6, 1855, Journal of Discourses, 3:45) â??What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self security. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. (Brigham Young, "Eternal Punishment," Journal of Discourses, 9:150.)That being said, I am still looking for the name of the author of the original quote.
Duncan Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 Samuel Richards was never an Apostle. Willard Richards was, Legrand Richards was, Stephen L Richards was.
Lightbearer Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 If we have the Holy Ghost as our companion then we never have to worry about blind obediance because when our leaders speak by the power of the Holy Ghost then what they say is scripture...it is the word of the Lord it is the power of God unto salvation. But it is right to obey even if sometimes we do not understand the reasons, but again the Holy Ghost can confirm it as correct to our hearts if we are in tune. Actually I do not know who the quote is from, perhaps the editor?
smac97 Posted July 20, 2007 Posted July 20, 2007 "We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything that they were told to do by those who preside over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God...would despise the idea. Others in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves."I can't help but juxtapose this quote with this one (with repetitions or variations of it here, here, here, here and here): I was greatly impressed by the Presidentâ??s remarks. I am glad he said what he did. Listening to him, I was taken back in my thoughts a quarter of a century to an experience I had with President Heber J. Grant. We were discussing some criticism that had been directed against an action taken by him in his official capacity. Putting his arm across my back and resting his hand on my left shoulder, he said, â??My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he tells you to do something wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.â?
LifeOnaPlate Posted July 20, 2007 Author Posted July 20, 2007 Yes, that makes the attribution even more puzzling. The quote has also been used on several discussions in regards to Mitt Romney's presidency campaign, if Google tells me correctly. If we have the Holy Ghost as our companion then we never have to worry about blind obediance because when our leaders speak by the power of the Holy Ghost then what they say is scripture...it is the word of the Lord it is the power of God unto salvation. But it is right to obey even if sometimes we do not understand the reasons, but again the Holy Ghost can confirm it as correct to our hearts if we are in tune. Actually I do not know who the quote is from, perhaps the editor?Editor, indeed, that is my initial reaction as well. Samuel W. Richards was the editor and publisher of the issue in question. Hw wasn't, as far as I can find, an apostle.
erichard Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 ... The quote has also been used on several discussions in regards to Mitt Romney's presidency campaign, if ...This Mitt Blog says:The late Mormon Apostle Charles Penrose addressed this very issue. Speaking of church members who might say they would do anything they were told to do by their church leaders even if they knew it to be wrong, Apostle Penrose said, â??such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings.â?I think it is likely that Elder Charles Penrose was the source of this quote.Richard
Hammer Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 This Mitt Blog says:I think it is likely that Elder Charles Penrose was the source of this quote.RichardIt sounds like him.
LifeOnaPlate Posted July 22, 2007 Author Posted July 22, 2007 This Mitt Blog says:I think it is likely that Elder Charles Penrose was the source of this quote.RichardBut how do they know? Where is the bleedin' citation for hecks sake?
Hammer Posted July 24, 2007 Posted July 24, 2007 Well if what whomever stated was truth, it comes from God. Right?
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