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Circumcision's Purpose


AeonJ

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What's the meaning of the covenant of circumcision, it's over now and I'm not sure if it symbolized anything corallary to the New Testament.

I might just be jaded but I'm use to almost everything in the Bible having a connection to Christ. Hopefully there is a connection which I just haven't seen yet.

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What's the meaning of the covenant of circumcision, it's over now and I'm not sure if it symbolized anything corallary to the New Testament.

I might just be jaded but I'm use to almost everything in the Bible having a connection to Christ. Hopefully there is a connection which I just haven't seen yet.

One theory is that the practice originated in predynastic Egypt -- as a means by which enemy

male warriors could be recognized and accounted for in battle. The leader of a warrior band could

quickly count the number of uncircumcised enemy slain (and bring physical proof of that number

back to the home village). Likewise the Egyptian females could tell in an instant whom they might

have intimate relations with (or not).

Perhaps that was not the origin -- but at least those aspects were part of the practice all through

Egyptian history. A somewhat modified version of the operation spread to Egypt's Semitic neighbors

and in time circumcision became the physical symbol for inclusion within the Israelite confederation

of tribes. To be circumcised in Israel was to be a true worshipper of YHWH/Eloheim -- at least that

view was projected backwards upon past history, when the scriptural texts were written down.

Circumcision also became a symbol of submission to the God of Israel -- a man of circumcised lips

was a man who earnestly praised The Lord -- a man of circumcised heart was a man of compassion

and one who might love his neighbor as himself.

Jesus made use of this symbolism -- do a word search of the Gospels to see how.

Uncle Dale

.

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I've heard that genital circumcision is a practice used to achieve 'first circuit' programming - meaning a practice that targets one of the most powerful 'centers' of the human being in order to make him - or her - more controllable and submissive to 'fill in the blank'. Though we typically have no conscious memory of it being done - the unconscious impact is said to be quite acute with long lasting emotional, mental, and spiritual ramifications influencing how we relate to ourselves, others, and power authorities. At least that's what I've heard... :P

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I've heard that genital circumcision is a practice used to achieve 'first circuit' programming - meaning a practice that targets one of the most powerful 'centers' of the human being in order to make him - or her - more controllable and submissive to 'fill in the blank'. Though we typically have no conscious memory of it being done - the unconscious impact is said to be quite acute with long lasting emotional, mental, and spiritual ramifications influencing how we relate to ourselves, others, and power authorities. At least that's what I've heard... :P

There may be a germ of truth in what you say -- in that primitive people is Africa and Arabia sometimes

speak of the practice as enhancing manhood.

In some cases it may be delayed until puberty and be inflicted as a "rite of passage" into adulthood.

The concave folds of the foreskin, from this viewpoint, are seen as being "too feminine" and must be

removed, to assure proper manhood.

A converse notion stands behind "female circumcision" among these same people -- expressed in the

belief that part of the female genitalia are "too masculine" and must therefore be partly removed.

Obviously these practices give certain individuals in the society great and terrible power over others.

Uncle "read in Exodus the very strange story of Moses' son's circumcision, by Zipporah" Dale

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Sometimes I think this is child abuse - and people don't even think twice about it when they have a baby that is male. I say hold off until eighteen and let the young man decide.

What male would choose that? I doubt I would, and I'm glad I got it done as an infant. Reminds me of a movie...

elwes3.jpg

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There are lots of symbolic acts that we make to signify a covenant we are making. Think of the following--

You put a few drops of ink on a piece of paper--your signature

You shake hands

You get baptized

You raise your right hand and put your other hand on the Bible (I understand this is a masonic sign)

All of these are an outward act symbolizing that we are making a covenant. As to why circumcision--I don't know.

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I understand the various reasons that this barbaric act was practiced by primitive people, but what I don't understand is why it is still done today in such high numbers in the US, and in even higher numbers by LDS parents (Utah, at least). The reasons I usually hear are purely cosmetic. I guess, in the eyes of many, God made a mistake creating this body part. (But perhaps most are comforted with the idea that they'll get it back in the resurrection.)

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I understand the various reasons that this barbaric act was practiced by primitive people, but what I don't understand is why it is still done today in such high numbers in the US, and in even higher numbers by LDS parents (Utah, at least). The reasons I usually hear are purely cosmetic. I guess, in the eyes of many, God made a mistake creating this body part. (But perhaps most are comforted with the idea that they'll get it back in the resurrection.)

Why are you trying to turn this into an anti-Mormon issue? Other than Christ's statement quoted in Moroni 8:8 that the ancient law of circumcision "is done away in [him]," the Church takes no position on the practice.

People are influenced by the broader culture, and if some Mormons perpetuate the practice, it has nothing to do with the religious faith they profess.

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What's the meaning of the covenant of circumcision, it's over now and I'm not sure if it symbolized anything corallary to the New Testament.

I might just be jaded but I'm use to almost everything in the Bible having a connection to Christ. Hopefully there is a connection which I just haven't seen yet.

For what it's worth, I found this link through a Google search on the Net:

http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabb...mcisionsign.htm

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Why are you trying to turn this into an anti-Mormon issue? Other than Christ's statement quoted in Moroni 8:8 that the ancient law of circumcision "is done away in [him]," The Church takes no position on the practice.

People are influenced by the broader culture, and if some Mormons perpetuate the practice, it has nothing to do with the religious faith they profess.

I have had to care for infants with and without circumcision. I think it is done as much for the ease of the parent as much as anything. A circumcised boy is much easier to clean up after a messy diaper. They seem to me to have less infections in that area too. But that is only personal observation I don't have any statistics to prove anything.

-SlackTime

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I have had to care for infants with and without circumcision. I think it is done as much for the ease of the parent as much as anything. A circumcised boy is much easier to clean up after a messy diaper. They seem to me to have less infections in that area too. But that is only personal observation I don't have any statistics to prove anything.

-SlackTime

Until the boy is old enough for the foreskin to be unforcibly retracted, the matter of cleanliness is a non-issue.

And the notion of circumcision as a preventative for urinary tract infections has been discredited. See this link:

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/

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the Church takes no position on the practice.

Hopefully the LDS Church HAS published a condemnation of female circumcision --

if not, then today would be a good day for that.

Uncle "Was is Moses' son or Moses himself that Zipporah cut?" Dale

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Until the boy is old enough for the foreskin to be unforcibly retracted, the matter of cleanliness is a non-issue.

And the notion of circumcision as a preventative for urinary tract infections has been discredited. See this link:

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/

Maybe so, but I raised 4 boys (circumcised) and have 5 grandsons (4 uncircumcised) and having had to care for both over long periods of time, my personal observation is that the circumcised ones were easier to clean and care for. Whatever the experts think.

-SlackTime

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Maybe so, but I raised 4 boys (circumcised) and have 5 grandsons (4 uncircumcised) and having had to care for both over long periods of time, my personal observation is that the circumcised ones were easier to clean and care for. Whatever the experts think.

-SlackTime

Unless the foreskin has been forcibly retracted in infancy, it should not even be an issue.

And such forcible retraction should never be done. It is unnecessary, and it could lead to problems.

In a typical male, the foreskin is not ready to retract without force until the boy is old enough to bathe himself.

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What's the meaning of the covenant of circumcision, it's over now and I'm not sure if it symbolized anything corallary to the New Testament.

I might just be jaded but I'm use to almost everything in the Bible having a connection to Christ. Hopefully there is a connection which I just haven't seen yet.

I have heard it said that there is some symbolic imagery relative to the seed passing through the circumcised organ pursuant to an individual being born under the covenant.

And, as I recall, there is a parallel between the practice of doing it on the eighth day after birth and a person reaching the age of accountability and being eligible for baptism at 8 years old.

But at the moment, I can't nail either of these things down with documentation. If and when I do, I'll come back with a report.

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I did social work for over a decade.

Check out the Welfare and Institution Code in California; specifically 300 subdivision (e)

if you file a petition with an (e) for jurisdiction usally the Department seeks fast tract into adoptions and no reunification services.

http://www.legaltips.org/california/califo.../300-304.7.aspx

Having trouble seeing the connection here, karl. Can you connect the dots for me?

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Why are you trying to turn this into an anti-Mormon issue? Other than Christ's statement quoted in Moroni 8:8 that the ancient law of circumcision "is done away in [him]," the Church takes no position on the practice.

People are influenced by the broader culture, and if some Mormons perpetuate the practice, it has nothing to do with the religious faith they profess.

I'm not trying to do that. At least I regret if it came across that way.

I was stating that Utah has long been one of the states with a high rate of infant circumcision. It's more likely to be because Utahns are conservative than because they are mostly LDS, although those two are often related. The midwest and south are also high. Actually, as I look at more recent data, Utah had one of the biggest percent decreases in the US (from 69% to 53%) from 1998 to 2004. I still think that's high. (N. Carolina had the biggest drop, but they started at 88%, the highest in the country.)

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Having trouble seeing the connection here, karl. Can you connect the dots for me?

I had the same problem. I came to the conclusion that he must be responding regardin female circumcision that was brought up earlier. But maybe your request, will bring understanding.

-SlackTime

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I had my son circumcised for social/cosmetic reasons (it's a sensitive area and if you are the only boy in the highschool locker room with foreskin it could be a self-esteem issue). In general, I don't think it's a big deal (I watched my son get his circumcision and I'm skeptical of the trauma it induced compared to being yanked out of his mother's womb with forceps.)

Anyway, here's an interesting article on the recent promotion of circumcision in Africa as an AIDS prevention measure.

http://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/news/2007032...on-against-AIDS

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I have heard it said that there is some symbolic imagery relative to the seed passing through the circumcised organ pursuant to an individual being born under the covenant.

And, as I recall, there is a parallel between the practice of doing it on the eighth day after birth and a person reaching the age of accountability and being eligible for baptism at 8 years old.

But at the moment, I can't nail either of these things down with documentation. If and when I do, I'll come back with a report.

Scott, I thought the 8-year-old "age of accountability" was strictly an LDS phenomenon. Is there an earlier, Jewish tradition as well?

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Having trouble seeing the connection here, karl. Can you connect the dots for me?

"For the purposes of this subdivision,

"severe physical abuse" means any of the following: any single act

of abuse which causes physical trauma of sufficient severity that, if

left untreated, would cause permanent physical disfigurement,"

I guess it's the culture that says whether or not this is disfigurement - I like Dr. Dean on the radio who condems the practice. I would say it's trauma. Also, accidents happen all the time during this and who pays for it, the child. There is a famous case where the parent's raised the child as female when the operation went wrong.

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Scott, I thought the 8-year-old "age of accountability" was strictly an LDS phenomenon. Is there an earlier, Jewish tradition as well?

Not that I know of.

I'm bringing this up from the standpoint of there being a unity between the ancient Israelite faith tradition and the gospel of Christ in its fullness as restored through the prophet Joseph Smith.

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