Which Comes First

[Son]

Hi Son,

Being a convert from SF, it was quite a shock when I moved to "Zion" Utah. I about lost my testimony. I had to turn to God and beg Him to help me understand what was happenng with His people. I spent hours and hours on my knees. When I felt sure I had my answers and that I saw clearly, I wrote a letter to President Monson. I wanted to know if they knew. That reply came as a relief and shock both.

We live in the last days and like the days of Christ, His people have become arrogent and dull of Spirit. This is why He'll clean His house first. Isaiah 10 is a chilling prophecy. He will have a pure people.

Pride is a slippery slope which none of us are purified from. Well, I can think of a few who come close. I wish I could be like them!

"Pair of vowels"? Never heard that before. I do have more testosterone (sp?) than most women but I prefer to think I just love truth...... because I love Him.

Nice to chat with you.

LoL, As I was trying to be funny, the thought did cross my mind that you may be female. I hope my crude word play was not an offence.

You do love truth, please keep posting it. It is a breath of fresh air, in a stagnated world.

To purity and beyond.

son

son

[Paul Ray]

Wordzee,

YOu sure have a "pair of vowels" to be able to say that as a member. It is refreshing to hear from someone that hasn't gone so far from truth to know that it is the heart, mind and soul that carries the reality of ones belief, and not ordinance, membership, and callings.

Don't misunderstand I think all of the latter things have great value, but they are not primary.

As scripture says we can even grow beyond the doctrines of repentance, or the need to repent.

To the divine nature and beyond.............

Did you mean to say we can grow beyond the doctrines of the need to repent?

I think we need to keep repenting until we become perfect.

... and I'm not referring to having perfection attributed to us by our acceptance of Jesus Christ, but to becoming totally perfected as he is without flaws.

... to the point where we no longer sin and can do EVERYTHING in his will.

[daz2]

Re: forgiveness of sins prior to baptism--see D&C 20:5, where Joseph received a "remission of sins" before his baptism (and before Moroni appeared the first time). D&C 20:37 requirement before baptism that person "truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins."

[Hoops22]

Baptisim is a rights of passage - the gateway - vital, so vital that in His short time on earth and even shorter ministry, Christ Himself chose to be baptised.

However, the Atonement is our foundation. All sin and come short of the Glory of God. Sin is literally a state which can crush us. The Atonement allows us to exist on this earth in our sins beacause they have all already been taken care of. The choice we have is to then turn (repent) to God and rest in His peace or continue to sin....which we all do thus making our lives completely dependent on Him thus making us His. Are going to kneel at His feet or reject His gift?

Did you mean to say we can grow beyond the doctrines of the need to repent?

I think we need to keep repenting until we become perfect.

These are the statements, as an outsider, that I find difficult to reconcile.

[Paul Ray]

Did you mean to say we can grow beyond the doctrines of the need to repent?

I think we need to keep repenting until we become perfect.

These are the statements, as an outsider, that I find difficult to reconcile.

Me too, whether you consider me an "insider" or "outsider".

I don't believe we can grow beyond the doctrine(s) of the need to repent.

I was only asking if that was what he meant.

I think we need to keep repenting (and talk about the doctrines (teachings) regarding our need to repent) until we become totally perfect.

... and I am referring to not only being without any flaws, but to attaining the state of total perfection.

... which I believe is totally possible because the atonement of Jesus Christ can wipe away all our sins and he can teach us how to become totally perfect.

[Son]

Did you mean to say we can grow beyond the doctrines of the need to repent?

I think we need to keep repenting until we become perfect.

... and I'm not referring to having perfection attributed to us by our acceptance of Jesus Christ, but to becoming totally perfected as he is without flaws.

... to the point where we no longer sin and can do EVERYTHING in his will.

My comment comes from these scriptures;

Hbr 6:1

[Paul Ray]

My comment comes from these scriptures;

Hbr 6:1

[Son]

Ahh, I see.

I don't think Paul was referring to totally abandoning those basic principles, though. I think he was just talking about moving on to discuss some other subject(s) with hope that those people now understood the basics.

I think we still always need to remember the basic principles if no other reason than to teach those who don't already know them.

Not abandoning, but leaving. If you have completed the nursing stage of life and have laid the foundation of breast feeding, then you move on to meat.

I believe he was teaching a divine principle process of Repent, and then go unto Perfection.

Not using repentance as a habitual process for excusing weakness over and over.

That repentance has a purpose, but it is not meant to be relied upon as a way of life (as it has become for most).

Overcoming the sin is the way of life we are to use in order to reach a perfected state.

The foundation will never be lost as long as there are those that are a light (example) of its proper usage.

This principle is so misunderstood and not taught, that it is lost for the masses of Churchianity.

When I have quoted this scripture to EV and non-denoms, they argue that the bible doesn't say that. Until it is pointed out, then they say, well that's not what it means.

So what does it mean then. The answer, I'll have to ask my pastor, and get back with you. None have ever gotten back to me. Rest in salvation, fill the seats, bury the dead "Churchianity" the great whore has arrived.

son

[Lightbearer]

Which is true in LDS theology:

A) No one can receive the atonement without first performing the saving ordinances

OR

B ) No one can perform the saving ordinances without first receiving the atonement

Thanks!

I am not sure what you are asking. But actually both statements could be true depending on the meaning attached to the phrase receiving the atonement. As far as the resurrection, that is a free gift we enjoy without any agency on our part. As for Eternal Life: Inasmuch as Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the Gospel then yes you must have faith in the atonement before it becomes operative. Once this faith or hope is in our hearts then we must act upon it by repenting of our sins (second principle of the Gospel) and then we must be baptized by one holding the authority from God for the remission of our sins.(3rd principle)This process is described in the following:

(D&C 20:37) "And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptismâ??All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church."

We must also receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those holding the authority. (4th principle) Then after that we have "entered the strait gate" and started on the path to Eternal Life we must do the following:

(2 Nephi 31:18-21) "And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."

This is what the LDS theology teaches. Hope this helps.

[kamenraider]

"Furthermore, the Israelites, could they have obtained forgiveness of sins through faith, repentance, and prayer, it would have been folly in them to offer up animals for that purpose. So also under the gospel dispensation, the three thousand people on the day of Pentecost, who were baptized in one day, were very unwise and foolish in submitting to the trouble of baptism, provided the same blessings could have been realized by exercising only faith, repentance, and prayer."

--Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, ed. by Clyde J. Williams, SLC: Bookcraft 1998, pg. 21.

"There is no repentance without faith in God, and there is no forgiveness of sins without the ordinance of baptism; it is important and necessary, and we can't avoid it. We can't relieve ourselves of the sins we have committed, except in the way I have explained. We may cease to sin, and sin no more, if we please, but in order to free ourselves from the sins that we have committed, and to enter into the kingdom of God, as the Son of God did, Himself, we must do it through baptism, genuine baptism, the baptism that the Lord has laid down and so instructed us. It must not be looked upon as unnecessary; it is important; we can't free ourselves from it at all; it is the law."

--Francis M. Lyman, Conference Report, April 1911, pg. 19.

I could point out that Heber C. Kimball had the Lord say to him that his name was written in heaven, no more to be blotted out, before he received his endowment or sealing ordinances. I could also point out that Parley P. Pratt received his second anointing while still single and then argue that the endowment, sealings, etc., aren't necessary for exaltation. And I'd be wrong.

Sometimes the Lord, seeing that someone will soon comply with the necessary requirements, can approve or bestow blessings in advance of the necessary laws being lived. These are the exceptions, not the rule.

The way we access forgiveness through the atonement of Jesus Christ is through baptism of water and the spirit by legal administrators. The only other way to obtain forgiveness (which is without the atonement) is through our own sufferings and the buffetings of Satan.

[wordzee]

Baptisim is a rights of passage - the gateway - vital, so vital that in His short time on earth and even shorter ministry, Christ Himself chose to be baptised.

However, the Atonement is our foundation. All sin and come short of the Glory of God. Sin is literally a state which can crush us. The Atonement allows us to exist on this earth in our sins beacause they have all already been taken care of. The choice we have is to then turn (repent) to God and rest in His peace or continue to sin....which we all do thus making our lives completely dependent on Him thus making us His. Are going to kneel at His feet or reject His gift?

Did you mean to say we can grow beyond the doctrines of the need to repent?

I think we need to keep repenting until we become perfect.

These are the statements, as an outsider, that I find difficult to reconcile.

This where I'm unsure. In the NT we are commanded repeatedly to be perfect. This is so far beyond my comprehention, but that doesn't make it inpossible. Maybe when I'm ready, I'll get it. But for now, I hold on to Christ with all the repentnace I can muster.

I'm realizing there are a lot of intellegent people on this site. I can only stand behind what I know to be true. My personal experience is mine and mine alone. When this life is all done and Christ and I sit down to discuss my report, He knows what He taught me, where He lead me, and together we'll go over what I learned. So, I have to be true to HIM and I do that the very best way I know how.

I love my scriptures, all of them. which includes Prophets from all dispensations, but they must be speaking as a Prophet. Even then, I pray for a witness or watch for a witness that what they say is true. because it's me alone with Him in the final report....and that is the most sacred to me.

Now, maybe I don't understand the difference between remission of sins and the simple amazing Atonement....maybe I simply don't understand the remission part. I was baptised (LDS) and it was an extraordinary experience. But I do know and refuse to deny that ALL are saved, ALL exists due to the Mercy of the Atonement. If ordances open up more beauties and blessings of it, so be it. That ought to be another discussion but for the question which this thread is based on, the Atonement which offers us relief from our sins is available to all. And we are accountable for how we live in it.

[Son]

This where I'm unsure. In the NT we are commanded repeatedly to be perfect. This is so far beyond my comprehention, but that doesn't make it inpossible. Maybe when I'm ready, I'll get it. But for now, I hold on to Christ with all the repentnace I can muster.

I'm realizing there are a lot of intellegent people on this site. I can only stand behind what I know to be true. My personal experience is mine and mine alone. When this life is all done and Christ and I sit down to discuss my report, He knows what He taught me, where He lead me, and together we'll go over what I learned. So, I have to be true to HIM and I do that the very best way I know how.

I love my scriptures, all of them. which includes Prophets from all dispensations, but they must be speaking as a Prophet. Even then, I pray for a witness or watch for a witness that what they say is true. because it's me alone with Him in the final report....and that is the most sacred to me.

Now, maybe I don't understand the difference between remission of sins and the simple amazing Atonement....maybe I simply don't understand the remission part. I was baptised (LDS) and it was an extraordinary experience. But I do know and refuse to deny that ALL are saved, ALL exists due to the Mercy of the Atonement. If ordances open up more beauties and blessings of it, so be it. That ought to be another discussion but for the question which this thread is based on, the Atonement which offers us relief from our sins is available to all. And we are accountable for how we live in it.

If you do hold on to Christ, then repentance will eventually not be necessary.

Then the habitual death pattern, will be be swallowed up of life, and you won't need to die, but will be changed into an immortal.

[Hoops22]

I'm sure you've dealt with this before and it is from this perspective that I find what many here have said confusing.

When the new testament refers to "perfect" (at least in the critical passages) is it not referring to "completeness"? And therefor the command is to be complete or finished? That may be a born again experience, or touched by the Spirit in a significant way, or how ever we want to describe it? Not really important, we are focusing on the word here not the event - that's for later.

[Son]

I'm sure you've dealt with this before and it is from this perspective that I find what many here have said confusing.

When the new testament refers to "perfect" (at least in the critical passages) is it not referring to "completeness"? And therefor the command is to be complete or finished? That may be a born again experience, or touched by the Spirit in a significant way, or how ever we want to describe it? Not really important, we are focusing on the word here not the event - that's for later.

Completeness to me is fine, because I set a high mark on the term, I think to some it has become to subjective, and lessened, the requirement of what it is, has been diminished.

"Be thou Complete even as your Father in Heaven is complete", now that's pretty complete.

Be complete by Jesus doing it all for you, after you are dunked into water. Not so complete.

I use this comment to illustrate man's nature of doing the least in order to gain the most. Not to denigrate the blessing of baptism.

The Be thou Perfect, is not so easily dismissed, because perfection has carried its definition without a watering down of its meaning over the years. That I like, and is why I use Perfect.

The scripture also comes at the end of the Be-attitudes, so its context to me is in a grand design of being like our Father. Complete, One.

A "son"

[wordzee]

Completeness to me is fine, because I set a high mark on the term, I think to some it has become to subjective, and lessened, the requirement of what it is, has been diminished.

"Be thou Complete even as your Father in Heaven is complete", now that's pretty complete.

Be complete by Jesus doing it all for you, after you are dunked into water. Not so complete.

I use this comment to illustrate man's nature of doing the least in order to gain the most. Not to denigrate the blessing of baptism.

The Be thou Perfect, is not so easily dismissed, because perfection has carried its definition without a watering down of its meaning over the years. That I like, and is why I use Perfect.

The scripture also comes at the end of the Be-attitudes, so its context to me is in a grand design of being like our Father. Complete, One.

A "son"

Hello, I'm typing via a Treo so pardon my typo's. We've been camping for 4 days.

Anyway, Son, I understand and agree. I've had great friends try and explain the perfect equals complete but it's still beyond me.

I just can't seem to comprehend not sinning. I am weak no matter how much I try. So I cuddle up in the arms of the Savior and I feel incredible love and safety. Then I try some more.

[BCSpace]

There is a BoM verse relevant to this thread I seem to recall but can't quite remember the actual reference. It's about how those living before Christ should act/believe as if Christ had already performed the Atonement. Anyone know the reference?

[wordzee]

There is a BoM verse relevant to this thread I seem to recall but can't quite remember the actual reference. It's about how those living before Christ should act/believe as if Christ had already performed the Atonement. Anyone know the reference?

I'm sorry. I can't right now. I'll work on that because I know the Atonement is eternal.

[Son]

Hello, I'm typing via a Treo so pardon my typo's. We've been camping for 4 days.

Anyway, Son, I understand and agree. I've had great friends try and explain the perfect equals complete but it's still beyond me.

I just can't seem to comprehend not sinning. I am weak no matter how much I try. So I cuddle up in the arms of the Savior and I feel incredible love and safety. Then I try some more.

Because I'm a little envious that you are camping. I will be a tad bit abrasive in my reply. lol.

I will give a quote from the mind of George Lucas, via the ever immortal being Yoda. Its my kids favorite, especially when I say I'm trying to help you.

Here it is.

"Try not, DO. Or do not. There is not try."

PS, I'm trying to live this as well.

[Dando]

Not abandoning, but leaving. If you have completed the nursing stage of life and have laid the foundation of breast feeding, then you move on to meat.

I believe he was teaching a divine principle process of Repent, and then go unto Perfection.

Not using repentance as a habitual process for excusing weakness over and over.

That repentance has a purpose, but it is not meant to be relied upon as a way of life (as it has become for most).

Overcoming the sin is the way of life we are to use in order to reach a perfected state.

The foundation will never be lost as long as there are those that are a light (example) of its proper usage.

This principle is so misunderstood and not taught, that it is lost for the masses of Churchianity.

When I have quoted this scripture to EV and non-denoms, they argue that the bible doesn't say that. Until it is pointed out, then they say, well that's not what it means.

So what does it mean then. The answer, I'll have to ask my pastor, and get back with you. None have ever gotten back to me. Rest in salvation, fill the seats, bury the dead "Churchianity" the great whore has arrived.

son

Son, you are basically describing sanctification. We Evangelicals very much believe in it.

Thanks for the "great whore" line. Good to see that we can dialogue with mutual respect.

[Hoops22]

Be complete by Jesus doing it all for you, after you are dunked into water. Not so complete.

I use this comment to illustrate man's nature of doing the least in order to gain the most. Not to denigrate the blessing of baptism.

I think this is the heart of what you're saying, yet I'm quite sure I don't understand. But let me put my thoughts another way in kind of a back handed response to you. Let's leave out the dunked in the water for a moment.

I had always understood this to mean that once we belong to HIm, by whatever mechanism, his creative work - specific to man - is complete, finished. Since we were created with free agency (debatable, I know) and have therefor freely chosen to belong to Him his creation of the "thing" called man is finished. We stand before Him a created being, with the freedom to choose right and wrong, yet He sees us as righteous. Complete.

Are we way apart here?

[Paul Ray]

Not abandoning, but leaving. If you have completed the nursing stage of life and have laid the foundation of breast feeding, then you move on to meat.

I believe he was teaching a divine principle process of Repent, and then go unto Perfection.

Not using repentance as a habitual process for excusing weakness over and over.

That repentance has a purpose, but it is not meant to be relied upon as a way of life (as it has become for most).

Overcoming the sin is the way of life we are to use in order to reach a perfected state.

The foundation will never be lost as long as there are those that are a light (example) of its proper usage.

This principle is so misunderstood and not taught, that it is lost for the masses of Churchianity.

When I have quoted this scripture to EV and non-denoms, they argue that the bible doesn't say that. Until it is pointed out, then they say, well that's not what it means.

So what does it mean then. The answer, I'll have to ask my pastor, and get back with you. None have ever gotten back to me. Rest in salvation, fill the seats, bury the dead "Churchianity" the great whore has arrived.

son

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Repentance is a process for overcoming sin in our lives. When we discover we are sinning we then need to repent... which means to either stop doing something bad or start doing something good. We don't become totally perfect in an instant. It's a process.

... and again, I'm referring to perfection in the sense of overcoming all our sins, not the state of perfection that is attributed to us once we sincerely accept the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Do you think you are totally perfect NOW, Son?

... that you can't improve in any way because you have now arrived at the state of perfection?

I think there are still some things you need to do that you aren't even aware of right now, whether that means giving up something bad or trying to attain something good.

I know that's the case for me, personally.

Everytime I think I may be getting close to the state of total perfection God then opens my eyes some more and makes me aware of other things, and I think it will be a LONG, LONG time before I am finished.

[wordzee]

Hey Son, can you smell the smores? We make them with reese's pbutter cups.. mmmm mmmmm good.

To the next poster - Paul I think, well said. Semantics can really mess up a good conversation, can't they?

Time to put this tired soul to bed. Just thinking about being perfect has tuckered me out ;-)

[Son]

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Repentance is a process for overcoming sin in our lives. When we discover we are sinning we then need to repent... which means to either stop doing something bad or start doing something good. We don't become totally perfect in an instant. It's a process.

... and again, I'm referring to perfection in the sense of overcoming all our sins, not the state of perfection that is attributed to us once we sincerely accept the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Do you think you are totally perfect NOW, Son?

... that you can't improve in any way because you have now arrived at the state of perfection?

I think there are still some things you need to do that you aren't even aware of right now, whether that means giving up something bad or trying to attain something good.

I know that's the case for me, personally.

Everytime I think I may be getting close to the state of total perfection God then opens my eyes some more and makes me aware of other things, and I think it will be a LONG, LONG time before I am finished.

Paul,

I thought we were communicating pretty well.

First I didn't write Heb 6:1 ....as far as I know?

It is a key to how we can overcome, by not looking at repentence as a life long process, and that yes, it is very necessary, but not eternal.

Your discernment meter is funtioning. Because surprise Son is not yet perfect. I don't like to say I am far from perfect, because I like to think positively, and repentence is part of my life.

It will go away when i stop sinning.

son

Wordzee,

I didn't know you had a torture streak in you. We'll have to try the peanut butter cup recipe. We have a camping trip coming up. So I can surprise the kiddies.

Paul does have a flare for the spiritual.

son

[Son]

I think this is the heart of what you're saying, yet I'm quite sure I don't understand. But let me put my thoughts another way in kind of a back handed response to you. Let's leave out the dunked in the water for a moment.

I had always understood this to mean that once we belong to HIm, by whatever mechanism, his creative work - specific to man - is complete, finished. Since we were created with free agency (debatable, I know) and have therefor freely chosen to belong to Him his creation of the "thing" called man is finished. We stand before Him a created being, with the freedom to choose right and wrong, yet He sees us as righteous. Complete.

Are we way apart here?

Umm, i always thought God and Jesus see us exactly how we are. Holding out hope that we will grow into oneness, bringing about the immortallity and perfection of His children.

i think that some churches have misinterpreted Paul's writings and have adopted the opinion that Jesus on the cross did it all, and that we just say this heartfelt prayer and we are righteous in God's eyes.

That to me is selling a untruth, in order to pacify the body, while the spirit is stillborn.

Personally I prefer to look at Christs life as the way to the At one ment.

His sacrafice undid Satan's hold on those in spirit prison, and opened the way for us to live as He lived.

Not to give us a reason to think we are complete, when we are not..

son

[Son]

Son, you are basically describing sanctification. We Evangelicals very much believe in it.

Thanks for the "great whore" line. Good to see that we can dialogue with mutual respect.

I'm not the author of that line.

Sanctification is a growing process, every EV church I have attended, and its in the dozens has taught that after one says the magic prayer, they are sanctified.

This is a scriptural mis interpretation, due to not understanding what is expected of a true believer. Which is to BE and LIVE Christ. And that our actions and intentions are how we will be judged, regardless of our self defined salvaged meter.

Its one of walk the walk, not just live as Jesus did it all, and we need not lift one finger to act on what He came here to teach us. Primarily Matt 5,6,7.

Blunt speaking can be taken as disrespectful, that is not my intention. The dust of weak teaching needs to be shaken off, or there will be no one attending church before to long.

The youth are leaving the churches according to one study, at a rate of 88%.

I believe this is the case because in every other example of life they see achievement, progress, and challenge, but in Christ they are told, Just look to Jesus. Nice catch phrase, but what does it mean?

I went on a raft trip last weekend with a couple of my daughters, it was with their friends church group.

The kids all tuned out the minute the pastor started drilling the same old pablam of Look to Jesus.

They can't go any deeper because they have tied their hands behind their backs and put salvation and works as opposing ideas. You need do nothing (except go to church and hear the same old stories) Jesus did it all.

When one accepts Christ, it should put one on the path to become like Christ, but the EV teachers blasphemously teach that is not possible, so guess what, no one that believes those lies ever does.

son