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Which Comes First


Dando

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According to my limited understanding of LDS theology, the atonement takes care of two different things: eternal life and exaltation. (See Moses 1:39)

Eternal life means that everybody will be resurrected and live forever, regardless of what kind of life was lived on earth.

After the resurrection, everybody will be judged according to their works and receive a reward. The highest reward is exaltation (living with and like God). The lowest is outer darkness. This is reserved for those who rebelled against the light of sure knowledge (i.e. somebody who had their calling and election made sure).

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No one has to do anything to receive the blessings of the Atonement. Just be born, breathing, living, reading, feeling pain or joy, overcoming bad habits. Again you do not even have to be a member of the church to receive blessings of the Atonement.

Having said that you also qualify yourself to more blessings through ordinances and are endowed (given) more opportunity (and responsibility) to qualify to all that God has through the fullness of the gospel.

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What do you mean receive the atonement? Just curious........

Well, I guess I'm looking for help from you to know what it means to receive the atonement in LDS thought. If I'm correct, the LDS church teaches that I must receive the atonement and the saving ordinances to be with Heavenly Father. So I'd like to know what that process looks like.

Kamenraider and Anijen illustrate the need to ask this question. One says I don't need to do anything to receive the atonement, the other says I need to perform the saving ordinances first, still others say that I just need to ask and receive.

The LDS faith is plain and simple concerning matters of salvation but I can't find a clear answer, so I'm looking for help.

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According to my limited understanding of LDS theology, the atonement takes care of two different things: eternal life and exaltation. (See Moses 1:39)

Eternal life means that everybody will be resurrected and live forever, regardless of what kind of life was lived on earth.

After the resurrection, everybody will be judged according to their works and receive a reward. The highest reward is exaltation (living with and like God). The lowest is outer darkness. This is reserved for those who rebelled against the light of sure knowledge (i.e. somebody who had their calling and election made sure).

Wow , I guess we LDS really do have you guys confused. :P

Eternal Life does not mean that "everybody will be resurrected and live forever, regardless of what kind of life was lived on earth." Eternal Life is life in the presence of God , which can only be realized by entering into the Celestial Kingdom , which minimally requires baptism. Being resurrected and living forever (immortality) without regard to what kind of life was lived is generally called "salvation".

Exaltation is a fullness of Eternal Life. Not just living in God's presence , but becoming like Him , which requires the priesthood and all the ordinances be received.

Still confused? <_<

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Wow , I guess we LDS really do have you guys confused. :P

Eternal Life does not mean that "everybody will be resurrected and live forever, regardless of what kind of life was lived on earth." Eternal Life is life in the presence of God , which can only be realized by entering into the Celestial Kingdom , which minimally requires baptism. Being resurrected and living forever (immortality) without regard to what kind of life was lived is generally called "salvation".

Exaltation is a fullness of Eternal Life. Not just living in God's presence , but becoming like Him , which requires the priesthood and all the ordinances be received.

Still confused? <_<

You're correct. I got my words mixed up.

Is this better?

According to my limited understanding of LDS theology, the atonement takes care of two different things: immortality and eternal life. (See Moses 1:39)

Immortality means that everybody will be resurrected and live forever, regardless of what kind of life was lived on earth.

Eternal life means life with God. After the resurrection, everybody will be judged according to their works and receive a reward. The highest reward is exaltation (living with and like God). The lowest is outer darkness. This is reserved for those who rebelled against the light of sure knowledge (i.e. somebody who had their calling and election made sure).

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Which is true in LDS theology:

A) No one can receive the atonement without first performing the saving ordinances

OR

cool.gif No one can perform the saving ordinances without first receiving the atonement

Everyone who has ever lived or will live has already received the immortality part of the atonement and automatic salvation in the lowest degree (unless they, like the sons and daughters of Perdition, don't want it as evidenced by committing the unpardonable sin) by virtue of accepting the plan of salvation before they were born. The ordinances will need to be performed before one can receive the eternal life (life with God as Gods) part of the atonement.

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Which is true in LDS theology:

A) No one can receive the atonement without first performing the saving ordinances

OR

cool.gif No one can perform the saving ordinances without first receiving the atonement

Thanks!

these questions are a bit confusing so i don't know how my answer fits into them...

but i believe LDS theology teaches that there are different levels of blessings that the Atonement grants us.

First, we all immediatly upon birth receive the Atonement (via gift of resurrection) no matter what else we do-we can't lose that gift actually and have no say in whether or not we receive it-we all just automatically do.

Second, we receive the grace and mercy of Christ's Atonement (gift of eternal life) as we have faith in Christ, repent, and receive those ordinances (such as baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost) that Christ has said are necessary to receive eternal life.

This is when we 'go through the straight gate and get on the narrow path'. We're not at the end of the path yet but we are on it and just by being on it-we receive portions of the Atonement (such as Grace, the enabling power to do good works etc.).

Third, we receive the fullness of the Atonement as we endure on the path that leads to eternal life to the point that we actually reach our destination of eternal life.

This does not occur until we have been both justified through our faith and works (james 2:24) and sancitifed through the Holy Ghost and does not happen the moment we get on the path but only when God has decreed that we have traveled the whole of it (and the length of time on the path is probably different for everyone) and have reached the final destination (which we are all promised we will reach as long as we stay on the path).

So that would be neither A or B but a combination of them both.

:P

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It seems that unless you are a hard core Calvinist, you would believe that something is required to receive salvation.

For some traditional Christians, it is as simple as confessing Jesus and asking him to save you -- a simplistic ritual ordinance in and of itself. Once you do that...you get the atonement.

For other traditional Christians and Mormons, acceptance of the Savior requires you to be baptised as an intergal part of being born again.

We Mormons might ask...which comes first...The atonement, or being born again?

Regards,

Six

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Which is true in LDS theology:

A) No one can receive the atonement without first performing the saving ordinances

OR

cool.gif No one can perform the saving ordinances without first receiving the atonement

Thanks!

I think both are true, from different perspectives.

If you don't perform the required ordinances you aren't really receiving the atonement.

AND

If you don't really receive the atonement you can't (and won't) perform the ordinances.

Many things are often AND and not limited to being only OR.

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It seems that unless you are a hard core Calvinist, you would believe that something is required to receive salvation.

For some traditional Christians, it is as simple as confessing Jesus and asking him to save you -- a simplistic ritual ordinance in and of itself. Once you do that...you get the atonement.

For other traditional Christians and Mormons, acceptance of the Savior requires you to be baptised as an intergal part of being born again.

We Mormons might ask...which comes first...The atonement, or being born again?

Regards,

Six

Your question isn't at all difficult for me to answer. I must first accept the atonement and repent of my sins before I am born again. I don't think any Evangelical will give any different answer.

I'm interest to hear what YOU have to say is the process in the LDS church to receive the atonement.

Paul,

I ask in the OR form because last week I was given both options as exclusive from one another. A Mormon friend told me that in order to accept the atonement I must first perform the saving ordinances. A Mormon missionary told me that it was impossible for me to perform the saving ordinances without first receiving the atonement. I asked many follow up questions and they were both quite sure that their answer was in contradiction of the other.

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Paul,

I ask in the OR form because last week I was given both options as exclusive from one another. A Mormon friend told me that in order to accept the atonement I must perform the saving ordinances. A Mormon missionary told me that it was impossible for me to perform the saving ordinances without first receiving the atonement.

Try looking at it this way for a moment:

To receive salvation, you must:

Accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ (intellectually and/or spiritually, internally)

AND

Do what our Lord told/tells us to do, which includes receiving certain ordinances.

If you don't accept the atoning sacrific of Jesus Christ, then being baptized in and of itself will not save you.

It would pretty much be like allowing somebody to dunk you under the water (or whatever) without really accepting what the ordinance(s) symbolize.

Is that better?

Words are pretty much meaningless unless/until you understand what that someone is thinking.

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Try looking at it this way for a moment:

To receive salvation, you must:

Accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ (intellectually and/or spiritually, internally)

AND

Do what our Lord told/tells us to do, which includes receiving certain ordinances.

If you don't accept the atoning sacrific of Jesus Christ, then being baptized in and of itself will not save you.

It would pretty much be like allowing somebody to dunk you under the water (or whatever) without really accepting what the ordinance(s) symbolize.

Is that better?

Words are pretty much meaningless unless/until you understand what that someone is thinking.

Salvation has many levels

level 1 - Salvaged. you need do nothing except for not be a son of perdition. Free gift of Christ, undoing Satans hold on the wicked.

level 2 - Saved. Accept Christ's teachings and TRY to live them, to what ever degree one is so inclined.

level 3 - Salvation from all sin, overcome death, exalted into the divine nature. Takes vision, effort, desire, Charity (the pure love of Christ), and Gratitude and Praise.

These are not representative of the levels of Heaven, although the degree of salvation is a barometer of inheritence.

The Atonement is more accurately defined as AT-ONE-MENT. The point where you become one with Christ.

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Salvation has many levels

level 1 - Salvaged. you need do nothing except for not be a son of perdition. Free gift of Christ, undoing Satans hold on the wicked.

level 2 - Saved. Accept Christ's teachings and TRY to live them, to what ever degree one is so inclined.

level 3 - Salvation from all sin, overcome death, exalted into the divine nature. Takes vision, effort, desire, Charity (the pure love of Christ), and Gratitude and Praise.

These are not representative of the levels of Heaven, although the degree of salvation is a barometer of inheritence.

The Atonement is more accurately defined as AT-ONE-MENT. The point where you become one with Christ.

I usually consider salvation to include being saved from ourselves, to some degree.

A change of location does not equate to salvation.

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I usually consider salvation to include being saved from ourselves, to some degree.

A change of location does not equate to salvation.

I agree, that was represented in #3.

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Repent and be baptized. The reason we can repent is the Atonement.

The Atonement is the only reason anyone can feel relief from any sin. It doesn't matter what religion you belong to or none at all. The Atonement is an Eternal principle made for all except those who commit the unpardonable sin against the HG. No one but God can hand down that sentence.

I just went through and read the posts prior to mine. I'm LDS and I just want to say that no ordinance can promise exaltation without repentnace (Atonement). Some LDS's don't realize that their callings/ordinances don't promise heavenly promotion. That was the attiitude that caused he Pharisee's to fail in their sacred callings - arrogence is dangerous!

So while the ordinances are very important - for Christ Himself honored many, in of themselves they pale in comparison to the greatest of all gifts - the ability to repent.

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Which is true in LDS theology:

A) No one can receive the atonement without first performing the saving ordinances

OR

cool.gif No one can perform the saving ordinances without first receiving the atonement

Thanks!

We have all allready received the atonement, are you thinking maybe accepting Jesus

As receiving the atonement? After we trust,beleive,accept in god then we are eligable

to receive saving ordinaces.

:P

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Repent and be baptized. The reason we can repent is the Atonement.

The Atonement is the only reason anyone can feel relief from any sin. It doesn't matter what religion you belong to or none at all. The Atonement is an Eternal principle made for all except those who commit the unpardonable sin against the HG. No one but God can hand down that sentence.

I just went through and read the posts prior to mine. I'm LDS and I just want to say that no ordinance can promise exaltation without repentnace (Atonement). Some LDS's don't realize that their callings/ordinances don't promise heavenly promotion. That was the attiitude that caused he Pharisee's to fail in their sacred callings - arrogence is dangerous!

So while the ordinances are very important - for Christ Himself honored many, in of themselves they pale in comparison to the greatest of all gifts - the ability to repent.

So are you saying that we can receive forgiveness of sins before being baptized by an LDS priesthood holder?

I hope not.

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Repent and be baptized. The reason we can repent is the Atonement.

The Atonement is the only reason anyone can feel relief from any sin. It doesn't matter what religion you belong to or none at all. The Atonement is an Eternal principle made for all except those who commit the unpardonable sin against the HG. No one but God can hand down that sentence.

I just went through and read the posts prior to mine. I'm LDS and I just want to say that no ordinance can promise exaltation without repentnace (Atonement). Some LDS's don't realize that their callings/ordinances don't promise heavenly promotion. That was the attiitude that caused he Pharisee's to fail in their sacred callings - arrogence is dangerous!

So while the ordinances are very important - for Christ Himself honored many, in of themselves they pale in comparison to the greatest of all gifts - the ability to repent.

Wordzee,

YOu sure have a "pair of vowels" to be able to say that as a member. It is refreshing to hear from someone that hasn't gone so far from truth to know that it is the heart, mind and soul that carries the reality of ones belief, and not ordinance, membership, and callings.

Don't misunderstand I think all of the latter things have great value, but they are not primary.

As scripture says we can even grow beyond the doctrines of repentance, or the need to repent.

To the divine nature and beyond.............

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So are you saying that we can receive forgiveness of sins before being baptized by an LDS priesthood holder?

I hope not.

Absolutely.

Baptisim is a rights of passage - the gateway - vital, so vital that in His short time on earth and even shorter ministry, Christ Himself chose to be baptised.

However, the Atonement is our foundation. All sin and come short of the Glory of God. Sin is literally a state which can crush us. The Atonement allows us to exist on this earth in our sins beacause they have all already been taken care of. The choice we have is to then turn (repent) to God and rest in His peace or continue to sin....which we all do thus making our lives completely dependent on Him thus making us His. Are going to kneel at His feet or reject His gift?

I think what you're talking about are blessings of righteous action such as being baptised or endowed. All actions whether it's loving your neighbor or attending the temple bring specific blessings.

The Atonement is eternal. Think about that for a moment or longer.

Christ said many times, you're faith has made you whole. He said your sins are forgiven you. In any of those cases in the scriptures were the people fiirst baptised by proper authority?

To understand the true meaning of the Atonement, one must go to Heavenly Father and ask to be shown the true meaning of the incredible and sacred Gift that we casually refer to as the Atonement.

Sincerely,

Laura

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Wordzee,

YOu sure have a "pair of vowels" to be able to say that as a member. It is refreshing to hear from someone that hasn't gone so far from truth to know that it is the heart, mind and soul that carries the reality of ones belief, and not ordinance, membership, and callings.

Don't misunderstand I think all of the latter things have great value, but they are not primary.

As scripture says we can even grow beyond the doctrines of repentance, or the need to repent.

To the divine nature and beyond.............

Hi Son,

Being a convert from SF, it was quite a shock when I moved to "Zion" Utah. I about lost my testimony. I had to turn to God and beg Him to help me understand what was happenng with His people. I spent hours and hours on my knees. When I felt sure I had my answers and that I saw clearly, I wrote a letter to President Monson. I wanted to know if they knew. That reply came as a relief and shock both.

We live in the last days and like the days of Christ, His people have become arrogent and dull of Spirit. This is why He'll clean His house first. Isaiah 10 is a chilling prophecy. He will have a pure people.

Pride is a slippery slope which none of us are purified from. Well, I can think of a few who come close. I wish I could be like them!

"Pair of vowels"? Never heard that before. I do have more testosterone (sp?) than most women but I prefer to think I just love truth...... because I love Him.

Nice to chat with you.

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