Only One True Church?

[alexkidd]

Do you believe in the Bible? If not, it is kind of pointless to have such conversations with you. If so, then you should be well aware of what a witness is, and where it comes from.

I do not believe in the bible as a source of truth.

I was asking for clarification because I wanted to know if "receiving a witness" was some sort of feeling or if it was more tangible. "Receiving a witness" is not vernacular that's used in any of the churches I've attended over the years.

Why would it be pointless to have a conversation with someone who doesn't believe in the bible? Don't missionaries do that all the time?

[Son]

I don't know you well enough, but I hope your just playing the devils advocate here.

However, if not, then you are like someone who goes from school to school, class to class,...doesn't matter where, or who is teaching...wherever your little heart pleases, learning as much as possible. Yet, you fail to see that if you don't actually register for a class at a given school, do the work, and take the tests, you will never get your degree. Without that degree, what you are doing is rather pointless. Yes, you may have gained knowledge, but when you walk in for that job interview without that diploma, you're not going to get the job. That's just the way it is.

If you believe in the Bible, at least, then you should understand that the Lord does not work in your whimsical ways. He does care, and there is a separation in His eyes...it's spelled out for you, you can't miss it. If you do choose, however, to keep on your own merry way, then I'm afraid to say that you will be one of those unfortunate souls to whom the Lord will say, 'I know you not'.

The whole earth is our class, overcoming the weaknesses that we are given and living with eyes single to God is our charge. I did go to church, it became spiritually unedifying, and more like primary school, when I felt I was ready for the Masters course, and learning from the author of the Word.

Thanks for your concern but I think the lord knows me, and I am self employed.

[Paul Ray]

The whole earth is our class, overcoming the weaknesses that we are given and living with eyes single to God is our charge. I did go to church, it became spiritually unedifying, and more like primary school, when I felt I was ready for the Masters course, and learning from the author of the Word.

I'm also taking the Master's course and learning from our Master while I strive to help build up his kingdom even though there are times I feel like I am giving to others and those others are not giving to me.

Thanks for your concern but I think the lord knows me, and I am self employed.

I think it is your "self employed" status that MasterMahan was and maybe still is concerned about.

Our Master is now hiring if you are interested.

[Son]

I'm also taking the Master's course and learning from our Master while I strive to help build up his kingdom even though there are times I feel like I am giving to others and those others are not giving to me.

I think it is your "self employed" status that MasterMahan was and maybe still is concerned about.

Our Master is now hiring if you are interested.

In taking the Masters course through LDS U, do you ever have things put on you that are out of obligation and not necessarily what is best?

I like that, Our Master is hiring. Set myself up for that one.

Well, I guess that the self employed status would be more aptly stated that hopefully I go where I am led.

I was led to the LDS church and learned many things, all good, as far as growing in understanding.

The puzzling thing to me was that this church has doctrines that lead to incredible heights, yet why do so few attain them on this sphere?

Granted they (you all) are in better shape to receive on the other side, yet there is something keeping them (you all) from overcoming.

My personal conclusion was whether or not it is consciously accepted, members put alot of faith in membership as their salvation, more so than overcoming the adversities.

And not leaving the principles and doctrines of Christ and going on to perfection.

I guess in my naivite' I thought I would hear stories of great triumph of overcomers, and Saints that have received the promise of being Born of God., or at least a sign of those that were close. I saw a mix, of spiritually still born, over taxed, over burdened, overwhelmed people that had great kindness, and hope, yet were a bit defeated and having eyes toward the here after, and not the here and now.

From reading the Ye are Gods book and others, it has helped me to understand the stumbling block that can happen when church membership and authoritarian (which is necessary, but not primary) is used as a crutch more than a stairway.

[Son]

As far as I know, he never has. "Mormon" is merely a nickname for the Church that has stuck with us through the years; it never has been an official name of the Church.

He did, however, direct that His Church was to be called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in 1838:

Now that I can agree with. So why has it stuck? It should not have.

His church on earth is called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in heaven it is the church of the First Born, that's where Saints graduate to, if found worthy.

[docrick]

And what was that witness?

How do you know there was an apostacy?

I don't know what you mean by "what was that witness". Are you intimating you don't understand feelings of confirmation of faith by the Holy Ghost? That is the witness of which I refer.

And as a result of that witness therefore I know there was an apostacy.

[Son]

Quite a few. Too many.

baptism, confirmation, priesthoods, temple (there is a lot in there that I can't elaborate on!), mission, etc.

None of it seems to matter compared to a sincere quest for goodness etc.

That surprises me, is there scientific evidence for this goodness that you speak of?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

True = Correct...the most correct.

Pa Pa

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

That surprises me, is there scientific evidence for this goodness that you speak of?

Just how would "science" measure goodness.

Pa Pa

[Son]

Just how would "science" measure goodness.

Pa Pa

That's why I was asking the scientist. I don't know.

[alexkidd]

I don't know what you mean by "what was that witness". Are you intimating you don't understand feelings of confirmation of faith by the Holy Ghost? That is the witness of which I refer.

And as a result of that witness therefore I know there was an apostacy.

That's the answer I was looking for. In evangelical churches (what I was raised on), witnessing refers to a person discussing the gospel to a non-believer. I was trying to figure out what that witness meant in Mormon-speak.

[Paul Ray]

In taking the Masters course through LDS U, do you ever have things put on you that are out of obligation and not necessarily what is best?

No.

Our Father's will is always what is best, and he always wants us to follow his servants who are our leaders.

I like that, Our Master is hiring. Set myself up for that one.

Well, I guess that the self employed status would be more aptly stated that hopefully I go where I am led.

I was led to the LDS church and learned many things, all good, as far as growing in understanding.

Did you get a better offer, or something?

I believe I have accepted the best contract available.

The puzzling thing to me was that this church has doctrines that lead to incredible heights, yet why do so few attain them on this sphere?

In a word: Agency

Some people now prefer to follow what is their own will even when it's against the will of our Father.

Granted they (you all) are in better shape to receive on the other side, yet there is something keeping them (you all) from overcoming.

You do agree it's not God, though, don't you?

I believe that with God we can overcome everything, and God can be with us all of the time.

My personal conclusion was whether or not it is consciously accepted, members put alot of faith in membership as their salvation, more so than overcoming the adversities.

That's a part of it. I agree. But that isn't the only thing some stumble over.

And not leaving the principles and doctrines of Christ and going on to perfection.

I believe we can only go on to perfection through the help God makes available to all of us.

... and some of that help comes from leaders who have been duly authorized by God.

I guess in my naivite' I thought I would hear stories of great triumph of overcomers, and Saints that have received the promise of being Born of God., or at least a sign of those that were close.

I hear that quite often, in the lives of certain people. A lot of them may not admit it, but I can see it.

I saw a mix, of spiritually still born, over taxed, over burdened, overwhelmed people that had great kindness, and hope, yet were a bit defeated and having eyes toward the here after, and not the here and now.

What else would you expect?

God will never take our agency away from any of us.

From reading the Ye are Gods book and others, it has helped me to understand the stumbling block that can happen when church membership and authoritarian (which is necessary, but not primary) is used as a crutch more than a stairway.

I also sometimes learn by reading or hearing words from other people.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The Church is true because he says so...

Jesus Christ

Pa Pa

[Son]

No.

That's good to hear, some friends of mine, gripe a little that the bishop ask too much of them, they take it in stride, but it appears to be a greater burden than necessary.

Our Father's will is always what is best, and he always wants us to follow his servants who are our leaders.

At the same time, not trust in the arm of flesh? It would seem to me that the Spirit is key in discerning what is our Father's will, and what is a man's will, and if we have the Spirit, the only reason we need man is for administration of issues and things that are temporal in nature. Like Mr. Johnson could use a hand mowing his lawn, cuz he broke his leg.

Did you get a better offer, or something?

I would say I got an offer I couldn't refuse, and if I did shame on me. Not everyone gets an offer like this, though it is available to all.

I believe I have accepted the best contract available.

In a word: Agency

Then you are in the right place.

Some people now prefer to follow what is their own will even when it's against the will of our Father.

You do agree it's not God, though, don't you?

yes

I believe that with God we can overcome everything, and God can be with us all of the time.

That's a part of it. I agree. But that isn't the only thing some stumble over.

I believe we can only go on to perfection through the help God makes available to all of us.

And His help is only limited to our Belief. yes?

... and some of that help comes from leaders who have been duly authorized by God.

I hear that quite often, in the lives of certain people. A lot of them may not admit it, but I can see it.

What else would you expect?

True, people help people. I think its when we rely on people over God is when we are limiting ourselves, but you have to grow into that knowledge, so people with good intent is the next best thing.

God will never take our agency away from any of us.

yes, but the people put in authority could grow to where they had a better idea of how to motivate the people.

I also sometimes learn by reading or hearing words from other people.

see above.

son

[Paul Ray]

That's good to hear, some friends of mine, gripe a little that the bishop ask too much of them, they take it in stride, but it appears to be a greater burden than necessary.

I think some people don't realize that when a priesthood leader (including God) asks them to do something, it is a request that can be refused, and often there are some good reasons a priesthood leader may not be aware of that would prevent a person from feeling capable of fufilling the request.

At the same time, not trust in the arm of flesh?

Never, ever.

But we can always sustain them as God's authorized servants, or God.

It would seem to me that the Spirit is key in discerning what is our Father's will, and what is a man's will, and if we have the Spirit, the only reason we need man is for administration of issues and things that are temporal in nature. Like Mr. Johnson could use a hand mowing his lawn, cuz he broke his leg.

I don't believe that's the only reason.

I believe God uses his administration for administration of spiritual issues as well, and all issues are spiritual in some way.

I would say I got an offer I couldn't refuse, and if I did shame on me. Not everyone gets an offer like this, though it is available to all.

There are all kinds of offers that are freely available. You can even make up your own if you want to.

Then you are in the right place.

yes

I'm glad you think so. I think I will consider staying.

And His help is only limited to our Belief. yes?

I think his help is also conditional upon asking for it, although sometimes he does help without asking.

True, people help people. I think its when we rely on people over God is when we are limiting ourselves, but you have to grow into that knowledge, so people with good intent is the next best thing.

I agree with that 100%

yes, but the people put in authority could grow to where they had a better idea of how to motivate the people.

Yes, that's often true. I have learned that by experience.

... but they can still have the authority of God while they're not perfect.

[Son]

Paul Ray

... but they can still have the authority of God while they're not perfect.

Yes, so how far from perfection does one have to be in order to lose the authority, or effectiveness.

Once given authority, always have authority?

[Eliza-Anne]

No one has raised the issue of D&C 10:67-70. I am a card carrying member of the LDS church but I wouldn't presume to say that you have be a member of my church to be a true Christian or disciple of Christ. Christ's sheep are those that hear and obey His voice.

D&C 10:76 Behold, this is my doctrineâ??whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

70 And now, remember the words of him who is the life and light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen.

The Redeemer, as He reminds us here, is the life and light of the whole world. He has servants wherever he needs them and wants to place them. I'll name a few favorites of mine: Eric Liddell (of Chariots of Fire fame and a great great great uncle of mine), Nora Lam (Chinese missionary), William Tyndale (read the marvelous biography of this amazing man called "Fire in the Bones" by S. Michael Wilcox),C.S. Lewis, Oswald Chambers (read his book, My Utmost for His Highest, and be inspired),

How very arrogant of us to assume that we are the only ones doing His work. While it is true that no one else is doing what we are doing, building temples for example, and sealing families there, it is not the only work Christ is doing in the world. God bless Dr. James Dobson. I raised my family according to his books. He could not be as influential as he is if he was Mormon. God bless all the missionaries in China through the years that have planted churches and given their lives to that work.

Don't these people need the authorized saving ordinances of the true gospel of Jesus Christ? Of course. But I am sure that the ordinance ratifies the heart's truth the way a marriage ceremony ratifies a relationship. It doesn't create it. I can imagine scenes in Paradise like this one: An angel taps Mother Teresa on the shoulder. "Theresa. They are doing your ordinances in the Los Angeles Temple." "Well, bless my soul! I'll be right there!" I wouldn't call it a technicality. It's more than that of course. But the real work was done on the earth, when this woman gave herself to Christ through a lifetime of service.

I believe this is what Section 10 means when it speaks of those who "repent and come unto Christ" as being "his true church" and that those who are of THIS church will eventually be established on the rock; that is, established with all the ordinances and all the truth needed to continue in the eternal path of discipleship they began on earth. A living connection with the True Vine is what is needed in this life. And we Mormons don't have a corner on that.

Humbly,

E-A

[Son]

No one has raised the issue of D&C 10:67-70. I am a card carrying member of the LDS church but I wouldn't presume to say that you have be a member of my church to be a true Christian or disciple of Christ. Christ's sheep are those that hear and obey His voice.

D&C 10:76 Behold, this is my doctrineâ??whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

70 And now, remember the words of him who is the life and light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen.

The Redeemer, as He reminds us here, is the life and light of the whole world. He has servants wherever he needs them and wants to place them. I'll name a few favorites of mine: Eric Liddell (of Chariots of Fire fame and a great great great uncle of mine), Nora Lam (Chinese missionary), William Tyndale (read the marvelous biography of this amazing man called "Fire in the Bones" by S. Michael Wilcox),C.S. Lewis, Oswald Chambers (read his book, My Utmost for His Highest, and be inspired),

How very arrogant of us to assume that we are the only ones doing His work. While it is true that no one else is doing what we are doing, building temples for example, and sealing families there, it is not the only work Christ is doing in the world. God bless Dr. James Dobson. I raised my family according to his books. He could not be as influential as he is if he was Mormon. God bless all the missionaries in China through the years that have planted churches and given their lives to that work.

Don't these people need the authorized saving ordinances of the true gospel of Jesus Christ? Of course. But I am sure that the ordinance ratifies the heart's truth the way a marriage ceremony ratifies a relationship. It doesn't create it. I can imagine scenes in Paradise like this one: An angel taps Mother Teresa on the shoulder. "Theresa. They are doing your ordinances in the Los Angeles Temple." "Well, bless my soul! I'll be right there!" I wouldn't call it a technicality. It's more than that of course. But the real work was done on the earth, when this woman gave herself to Christ through a lifetime of service.

I believe this is what Section 10 means when it speaks of those who "repent and come unto Christ" as being "his true church" and that those who are of THIS church will eventually be established on the rock; that is, established with all the ordinances and all the truth needed to continue in the eternal path of discipleship they began on earth. A living connection with the True Vine is what is needed in this life. And we Mormons don't have a corner on that.

Humbly,

E-A

My Goodness, where have you been?

Thankyou for presenting those tremendously powerful scriptures from the D&C. I did not necessarily know what would come of this thread, but you made it complete.

May we all be One, in Christ.

Thank you Eliza-Anne

son