Early Christian Theosis Quotes

[Jersey Girl]

The difference is that you are speaking of mortality, and the Bible teaches the inheritance is as Sons (and Daughters) of GOD, the immortal realms and powers associated with them as immortals.

I thought that the Bible teaches the inheritance as adoptive sons and daughters of God. Do you disagree?

[e=mc2]

Yes, of all that God possesses. What does God possess, and that's what we will possess. It makes no distinction of the physical from the mental or spiritual, at least so far as I understand.

[Jersey Girl]

Yes, of all that God possesses. What does God possess, and that's what we will possess. It makes no distinction of the physical from the mental or spiritual, at least so far as I understand.

I'd like to see a Bible ref to support that. KJV if ya got one handy.

[e=mc2]

We are promised to be Joint-Heirs with Christ. Tell me what He has, and there ya have er........

[Jersey Girl]

We are promised to be Joint-Heirs with Christ. Tell me what He has, and there ya have er........

I get that...but what Bible ref supports your idea that we'll inherit all that God possesses?

[e=mc2]

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The word â??heirâ? in Greek is kleronomos {klay-ron-om'-os} which means 1) one who receives by lot, an heir 1a) an heir 1b) in Messianic usage, one who receives his allotted possession by right of sonship 2) one who has acquired or obtained the portion allotted to him.

The word â??joint-heirsâ? is the Greek sugkleronomos {soong-klay-ron-om'-os} which means 1) a fellow heir, a joint heir 2) one who obtains something assigned to himself with others, a joint participant .

1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. Here, Johnny, is where the word â??allâ? is found in relation to be heirs. ALL are yours, since we are Christâ??s, and Christ is God. I see no exceptions used here. Robertsonâ??s Word Pictures even notes this - â??The wealth of the Christian includes all things, all leaders, past, present, future, Christ, and God. There is no room for partisan wrangling here.â?

Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Notice, an HEIR OF GOD. What does God have to give us? You tell me.

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Notice this! Christ is an heir of all things and we are joint-heirs. You tell me, what is Christ? What does he possess? And what does that mean for us? The Greek is kleronomon panton, and again I find Robertsonâ??s Word Pictures to be extremely revealing about this concept:

Heir of all things (kl

[TOmNossor]

If a child is adopted, does it inherit all the attributes of it's adoptive parent? I say no.

May God bless you and your opinion, but it is contrary to the Roman Law of Adoption that Paul was most likely linking his thoughts to.

The below is from well known Protestant teacher, John MacArthur. He will mention exactly what I want to communicate about just how STRONG adoption is in Paulâ??s thought.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/sg45-59.htm

In ancient Roman society, if a father didn't deem any of his own sons worthy of inheriting his name and estate, he would adopt a son for that purpose. He would find someone with the character and talents he wanted in a son. The adopted son would then take precedence over all the man's real sons. In ancient Roman culture an adopted son was not a waif picked up off the street. Rather, he was chosen by a father to inherit his estate and bear his name.

When the Bible says we have become the adopted sons of God, it doesn't mean God picked us up off the street just to care for us. It does mean He has chosen us to bear His name and inherit His estate. We don't become children of God through a process of natural birth; we become His children because He sovereignly chose us. That's the essence of the biblical concept of adoption.

Now, neither MacArthur or I would suggest that we become adopted sons of God because God is somehow dissatisfied with Jesus Christ. I am sure this is not Paulâ??s point either. But, the idea of adoption would not be lost in the context into which Paul taught it. There are hints of adoption in Jewish culture, but the only place in the 1st century were you see the words that mean adoption used is in Greek and Roman law.

Adoption is no secondary weak acceptance. It is full integration into Godâ??s family as joint heirs.

BTW, I am in the process of adopting a little girl. I have no intention of making her a secondary citizen in our family.

Charity, TOm

[Jersey Girl]

Tom,

With all due respect, there was no indication in my post nor in the excerpt you posted that an adopted child is a "secondary citizen". Let's look at the excerpt that you posted, knowing that I don't know if I'm communicating with a LDS or not:

In ancient Roman society, if a father didn't deem any of his own sons worthy of inheriting his name and estate, he would adopt a son for that purpose. He would find someone with the character and talents he wanted in a son. The adopted son would then take precedence over all the man's real sons. In ancient Roman culture an adopted son was not a waif picked up off the street. Rather, he was chosen by a father to inherit his estate and bear his name.

When the Bible says we have become the adopted sons of God, it doesn't mean God picked us up off the street just to care for us. It does mean He has chosen us to bear His name and inherit His estate. We don't become children of God through a process of natural birth; we become His children because He sovereignly chose us. That's the essence of the biblical concept of adoption.

In LDS belief, as Kerry and others have expressed it, said inheritance involves:

Name, estate and attributes.

Do you agree or disagree with this? If you agree with what I've stated as LDS belief, how does that fit the explanation in the excerpt that you quoted?

[e=mc2]

I gotta hit the hay early tonight, much as I'd LOVE to stay up and discuss, talk, wrangle, and share with all you wonderful peeples....... I gotta get up extra early tomorrow and make some more podcasts. These are getting just TOO MUCH FUN!

[Jersey Girl]

I gotta hit the hay early tonight, much as I'd LOVE to stay up and discuss, talk, wrangle, and share with all you wonderful peeples....... I gotta get up extra early tomorrow and make some more podcasts. These are getting just TOO MUCH FUN!

Hi Kerry!

Sorry for the short replies here, I've been multi-tasking. Hey no problem (quitter)! I have to look up the references that you used in order to decimate your position. Good luck with the podcasts (quitter)!

JG

[e=mc2]

And a good night to you also me good lil lady............ (smart alec!)

[TOmNossor]

Tom,

With all due respect, there was no indication in my post nor in the excerpt you posted that an adopted child is a "secondary citizen". Let's look at the excerpt that you posted, knowing that I don't know if I'm communicating with a LDS or not:

In LDS belief, as Kerry and others have expressed it, said inheritance involves:

Name, estate and attributes.

Do you agree or disagree with this? If you agree with what I've stated as LDS belief, how does that fit the explanation in the excerpt that you quoted?

I am actually a LDS. However, as I struggled with my doubts concerning the CoJCoLDS, it was the recognition that God desires for us to partake of His fullness that anchored me. I hope that this anchor had nothing to do with my problems with pride. As my Catholic father (concerning deification) said, â??I could never believe that;â? I realized that I could (at least as it seemed then and now) never not believe that. Since that day many years ago, I have found regularly that historical and Biblical (and even philosophical) witnesses point much stronger to embracing deification than rejecting it. Of course I am BIASED. (It should be noted that David, who has been on this thread, and 3DOP helped me to see that one could embrace a strong form of deification within Catholicism, and my father has moved towards a more Catholic view though perhaps not to the place where David is).

Now, if I have totally misread your intentions, I apologize. I was not attempting to express any offense toward you, but trying to contrast your view of adoption with the view that Paul and his followers would be familiar with in the 1st century.

I am quite convinced that Paulâ??s use of adoption was not intended to communicate that the omnipotent God would withhold His attributes from those He adopts as compared to the fount of divinity He pores upon God the Son.

Other Biblical authors use other terms like being â??born againâ? or becoming â??partakers.â? I do not see these folks trying to minimize the transformation God will work upon those who commune with Him.

As David pointed out earlier in this thread, we are to be conformed to the IMAGE of Christ who is the IMAGE of God the Father. If Christ is no weak copy of the Father, I see no reason we would be a weak copy of Christ. Instead Christ is as the Father is, and we are to become as they are.

Now, I am not sure if e=mc2 has made this clear, but I believe that the divine attributes are singular out of necessity. There is one omnipotence. We are called to share in this one omnipotence just as God the Father and God the Son share in this singular omnipotence. I generally even go farther (in parallel with Ostler) and suggest that that while in a certain sense God the Father is the Fount of Divinity, it is the communion of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit that possesses the omnipotence in an emergent way. We are invited into this community to be full members.

The only limit that I place on our deification is that I believe eternally we will recognize that we were deified through Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Among the loving communion such truths will be of little importance in many ways, but we will know and worship Him just the same.

Charity, TOm

[johnny]

e=mc2,

We will have the ability to create, exactly like God can. No I won't replace Christ's station, nor do I desire to, but I will have all the same abilities, talents, powers, and glory since I inherit all that He has through the Father.

Will you be able to create spirits simply by a command (Psalm 148:2,5) or will you need a heavenly wife?

Pss.148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

[Lachoneus]

Will you be able to create spirits simply by a command (Psalm 148:2,5) or will you need a heavenly wife?

Pss.148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

Please show me in this quote from Psalms 148 that these angels were created SIMPLY by a command. I don't see simply in there, do you?

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Please show me in this quote from Psalms 148 that these angels were created SIMPLY by a command. I don't see simply in there, do you?

I don't see "simply" there either, I do see "commanded".

Neither do I see a heavenly mother there or anyplace in the Bible ...

[johnny]

e=mc2,

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

As you have indicated heirs are glorified. ADOPTED creatures DO NOT inherit the natural attributes of their Creator like infinite understanding (Psalm 147:5) and creating a spirit by a command (Psalm 148:2,5). Because of the Atonement an ADOPTED creature can be glorified, can be conformed to the image of the Son (Rom 8:17-30).

As ADOPTED sons of God or "gods" they can inherit material things but they will not inherit God's natural attributes like omnipresent (1Kings 8:27), being omnipotent (Rev 19:6; 1Cor 15:28) and being the source of all things (1Cor 8:6). An ADOPTED man can inherit the eternal kingdom (Matt 25:34). An ADOPTED man can inherit the tree of life so that they will have eternal life (John 3:15; Rev 22:2).

By partaking of the divine nature a man can partake of his holiness, become perfect like the Father (2Pet 1:4; Heb 12:1). Sinful men can be like him in that they will be righteous (1John 3:2-7).

In the end, the Son will deliver up his kingdom to the Father (1Cor 15:24). In the end, there is "a new heaven and a new earth" (Rev 21:1). His faithful servants shall serve the Lord God (Rev 22:1-5). Every creature will worship the omnipotent Lord God who reigns (Rev 19:1,6; Rev 5:13,14). There is no God beside our God, he know not any. He alone and by himself created (Isa 44:8,24).

Satan likes to tempt God's creatures by saying you "shall be as gods" (Gen 3:5). Men are sinful creatures that can become a new creature created in righteousness and holiness (2Cor 5:17; Eph 4:24). Adam become "as gods" only in a limited way, only in knowing good and evil (Gen 3:5,22).

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

Will you be able to create spirits simply by a command (Psalm 148:2,5) or will you need a heavenly wife?

Pss.148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

It is irrelevant *how* I will create, the point is that God will share that power and glory with me, since it is part of my eternal inheritance. After all, Christ at John 17:22 shared the Glory of the Father with humans, and it was this that made them ONE with God and Christ. John 17:22 I say, take a looksie........ kago ten doxan en dedokas moi dedoka autois kai osin en kathos hemeis en......... you tell me what that translates as and what it means. John 17:22.........

[johnny]

e=mc2,

IIt is irrelevant *how* I will create, the point is that God will share that power and glory with me, since it is part of my eternal inheritance.

God created spirits by a command ... will you, an adopted creature, have this kind of power?

If you have this kinda of power then what is the need for a heavenly wife?

After all, Christ at John 17:22 shared the Glory of the Father with humans, and it was this that made them ONE with God and Christ. John 17:22 I say, take a looksie........ kago ten doxan en dedokas moi dedoka autois kai osin en kathos hemeis en......... you tell me what that translates as and what it means. John 17:22.........

What made them one was that the Father was in the Son ...

John.17

[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

[e=mc2]

and verse 22 says HOW they are one, because they SHARED the GLORY. Why do you ignore that part of the context my friend? Why does it scare you so to have a share in God through Christ? Christ says dedoka autois, "I have shared" the glory with them as you did with me. John 17:22.

And archaeologically, you best be very careful as William G. Dever in his book last year Did God Have a Wife? and he answers YES, because archaeologically it has been now verified. Be careful about mocking the sacred things of God Johnny.

[johnny]

e=mc2,

and verse 22 says HOW they are one, because they SHARED the GLORY. Why do you ignore that part of the context my friend?

The Father gave the Son the glory ... The Father was in the Son ... Why do you ignore that part of the context my friend?

Why does it scare you so to have a share in God through Christ?

Having God give us his glory DOES NOT mean that ADOPTED creatures will inherit the natural attributes of their Creator like infinite understanding (Psalm 147:5) and creating a spirit by a command (Psalm 148:2,5).

And archaeologically, you best be very careful as William G. Dever in his book last year Did God Have a Wife? and he answers YES, because archaeologically it has been now verified. Be careful about mocking the sacred things of God Johnny.

Sacred scripture says God created spirits by a command (Psalm 148:2,5), he did not need a heavenly wife.

Will you need a heavenly wife or will you be like God?

Pss.148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

[Jersey Girl]

Here is what I offer in the way of refutation:

The New Jerusalem

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he [God] that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I [God] make all things new. And he [God] said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 21:6 And he [God] said unto me, It is done. I [God] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I [God] will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I [God] will be his God, and he [that overcometh] shall be my [God's] son.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone : which is the second death.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city.

Nowhere in the above or in any other part of the Bible is there mention that we will inherit anything more than the Kingdom. If God had planned for us to inherit his "power", doesn't anyone think that Jesus himself, would have said so?

[Jersey Girl]

and verse 22 says HOW they are one, because they SHARED the GLORY. Why do you ignore that part of the context my friend? Why does it scare you so to have a share in God through Christ? Christ says dedoka autois, "I have shared" the glory with them as you did with me. John 17:22.

And archaeologically, you best be very careful as William G. Dever in his book last year Did God Have a Wife? and he answers YES, because archaeologically it has been now verified. Be careful about mocking the sacred things of God Johnny.

I'll be brief here.

Artifacts are not proof that God had a wife. They are proof of what man speculates about God.

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

The Father gave the Son the glory ... The Father was in the Son ... Why do you ignore that part of the context my friend?

I already have used this as the context. But it is not the final word, since Jesus then tells His Father he in turn SHARES the Father's glory with mankind. You know darn well this theology of Christ destroys your limitations you impose on mankind. Christ saw fit to share the Glory of God, and it is this that makes us all ONE with God. Verse 22 is the final summation, not verse 21. And you know it.

Hi Ya Jersey Girl!

You said:

Artifacts are not proof that God had a wife.

I could not possibly agree with you more on this. However, it is the written inscriptions that show who was married. It was God (Jehovah) and Asherah. Of course, Jehovah was following after the pattern of His Father El, exactly as Jesus said of doing what He has seen His Father do! John 5: 19-21 ya kinow.......

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

Having God give us his glory DOES NOT mean that ADOPTED creatures will inherit the natural attributes of their Creator like infinite understanding (Psalm 147:5) and creating a spirit by a command (Psalm 148:2,5).

Jesus giving His disciples the Father's Glory is the thing that causes them to be ONE with God. You tell me being ONE with God is being different? Your creeds say the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are ONE. Are you refusing to believe their teaching now also?

[e=mc2]

Hi Jersey Girl. You said:

If God had planned for us to inherit his "power", doesn't anyone think that Jesus himself, would have said so?

John 17 says that Jesus shared the Glory of the Father with his disciples. What is glory? Isn't that power? By God's GLORY, he can destroy worlds, or create them. That's pure power so far as I understand it.