"my Savior Is Tougher Than Nails"

PacMan · July 9, 2007

Rhino,

I disagree. The Old Testament has four times as much to say about the love, grace and mercy of God as the New Testament does. And Jesus is certainly not removed from judgement and punishment either. There is no difference between God in the OT and God in the NT, in terms of these characteristics.

I agree with the fact of the matterâ?¦I donâ??t understand what youâ??re disagreeing with, however. In the perception of the Hebrews, would you think it accurate that their perspective of God was different than the early Christiansâ?? perspective of Jesus? Note: I said â??was seen.â?

In worship it is not "just saying the name over, and over". It is repetition with the objective of focusing the mind and soul on God, pushing other concerns to the side as much as possible.

But is it necessary? Obviously, it wasnâ??t for the Hebrewsâ?¦because it wasnâ??t permitted. So, either they were unable to â??focus the mind and soul,â? or they were able to do so in other ways. Itâ??s not necessary and I donâ??t understand how it is.

As far as I can tell, the only reason that you believe rock music to be inherently irreverent is because you wouldn't play it at a funeral. Kind of an odd comparison, if you ask me.

Againâ?¦would you play the music if Jesus walked into the room?

Is the point of worship to get God to speak to us, or for us to praise God? There is a time and place for both, I believe. There are times to speak and times to listen. But as a personal example, one of the most powerful spiritual experiences of my high school years occurred at a Christian rock concert. I truly experienced God's presence in a powerful way, and the effects of that experience have stuck with me to this day.

I understandâ?¦but I canâ??t relate. I think itâ??s a valid experience. But please also consider what I said with regards to â??Christian rock,â? that it is a genre that includes many subsets of other, typical â??rock.â? I donâ??t think itâ??s all bad, nor all blasphemous. Those that would otherwise be termed as â??hard rock,â? etc., I have a problem withâ?¦as well as those that profusely use the name of the Lord. Understand, I know that not all of them doâ?¦Iâ??m not condemning the genre completa. I donâ??t know it that wellâ?¦and the reason is because my first exposures to it were a real turn-offâ?¦for all the reasons Iâ??ve listed.

Actually, anything can become casual and routine, no matter how restricted it is. How many people do you think take the sacrament every Sunday without thinking?

Too manyâ?¦although once a week makes it a lot easier to focus oneâ??s attention then something 20-30 times in 3 minutes.

How many deacons just read out the prayer of consecration without thinking about it?

I donâ??t know what youâ??re referring to.

As to the first sentence, if you don't understand, perhaps you should either try to understand, or stop condemning a practice you don't understand.

Except youâ??ve given no reason to do so! You keep telling me itâ??s up to the personâ??s heart, but have not in anyway provided any reason to believe that the umpteenth usage of the Lordâ??s name is not figured as excessive. THAT is the practice I deem as blasphemous, and for the record, I have yet to condemn ANYONE.

Different styles of music resonate with different people. It's a simple fact of life. Whether it is African drums or New Orleans blues, or rock music or choir and organ, it is all music that can be used to worship God.

Let us draw a distinction to figure out if this conversation as any light at the end of the tunnel. Is Heavy Metal an appropriate medium for worship, as long as the words â??in the heart of the artistâ? are used to worship Christ?

PacMan

fatherofone · July 9, 2007

It is an example, but a very telling one. Is there anything better to which you could compare your vision of true worship, other than a funeral? And a western-culture funeral at that?
I realize that you would react a certain way to Christ if he walked into the room. Other people would react differently. Is your response the only acceptable one? It's like that song that's been bouncing around the radio for the past few years, "I Can Only Imagine". It's soft rock, so maybe you've heard it. The singer sings of going to heaven and meeting Christ, and wondering what he would do. Would he stand in his presence, fall to his knees, sing hallelujahs, remain silent? He can only imagine, at this point. Different reactions for different people. Different styles of worship and music for different people and different cultures.
Take care, everyone

That is such an awesome song, makes me wonder what I would do

cdowis · July 9, 2007

Why is Christian rock blasphemy? It is not repetitive (for the most part). It is certainly not mocking God, nor is it irreverent.
snip
I don't know how to quantify "vain", although you seem to have a handle on it. Again, intent definitely matters. That fact does not negate the commandment at all. God definitely has an opinion on the matter, but I don't think you or I know exactly what that is.

When you trivialize Him, sell religion like a box of cereal. Again, we go back to when Christ cleansed the temple. The Lord has a definite opinion and we had better find out what it is.

We can find out what God has an "opinion" thru living prophets. May I suggest that you do a search on "reverence" on lds.org in the lesson material and general conference talks. There is a revelant lesson in this year's priesthood manual.

You can go about and "not know" His opinion about such things, and become part of the cleansing that will occur when Christ returns, or you can choose to listen and hearken to the latter day prophets He has sent to teach us about such things.

PacMan · July 9, 2007

Oh yeah...on the funeral thing. Isn't the purpose to "reverence" the deceased? It's not to worship them...so I think is not only tremendously valid, but head on when talking of something being reverent or not.

Moreover, I don't know of a single dictionary that uses "noisy" as part of the defintion of "reverant."

PacMan

rhinomelon · July 9, 2007

In the perception of the Hebrews, would you think it accurate that their perspective of God was different than the early Christiansâ?? perspective of Jesus? Note: I said â??was seen.â?

There were obviously differences in perception (as there should be), but not in areas of God's characteristics. The ancient Hebrews spoke of God's grace and mercy, and the Christians definitely saw the judgment and justice side of Jesus as well.

But is it necessary? Obviously, it wasnâ??t for the Hebrewsâ?¦because it wasnâ??t permitted. So, either they were unable to â??focus the mind and soul,â? or they were able to do so in other ways. Itâ??s not necessary and I donâ??t understand how it is.

I think you are confusing the name of the Lord (YHWH) with the actual terms "God" and "Lord". The Hebrews had the latter terms in their Psalms, and they could definitely use them. And I would point out that there is a difference between "unnecessary" and "unacceptable or blasphemous". It's not necessary, but it isn't pointless or unacceptable. LDS usually fold their arms or their hands when they pray; is this absolutely necessary?

Againâ?¦would you play the music if Jesus walked into the room?

Some examples, maybe. But like I've said before, most popular Christian music annoys me. Not because it's blasphemous, but because it doesn't sit well with me musically. But I can definitely understand others singing or playing such music before God.

Too manyâ?¦although once a week makes it a lot easier to focus oneâ??s attention then something 20-30 times in 3 minutes.

Irrelevant. The statement above is a difference in degree, not in kind. So if people can also take the sacrament irreverently or casually, does that make the sacrament blasphemous? Or does it really depend on the person's heart in partaking?

I donâ??t know what youâ??re referring to.

I was referring to the prayer read before the sacrament is distributed. I thought it was called the prayer of consecration, but I think I'm wrong now :unsure:

Except youâ??ve given no reason to do so! You keep telling me itâ??s up to the personâ??s heart, but have not in anyway provided any reason to believe that the umpteenth usage of the Lordâ??s name is not figured as excessive. THAT is the practice I deem as blasphemous, and for the record, I have yet to condemn ANYONE.

I think I've given many reasons, from biblical passages to pointing out how other cultures express worship and reverence. You've given me nothing except comparing true worship to funerals, and your own opinions and musical preferences. Even some biblical reference would be nice! My point is not to convince you to believe that singing the Lord's name over and over is not excessive, but to convince you that it is not excessive for other people. You can worship in your way, and I respect that and even enjoy it at times. But there are other ways of worshiping for other people and other cultures. If you can't see that by now, then I guess there's really nothing I can do about that.

Is Heavy Metal an appropriate medium for worship, as long as the words â??in the heart of the artistâ? are used to worship Christ?

For some people, definitely. There is nothing inherently wrong with any style of music, even though you won't hear heavy metal too often at American funerals. Personally, really heavy metal is just distracting, so it wouldn't really help me worship. But then, I feel the same way about loud pipe organs. <_<

So, did I just shoot out the light at the end of the tunnel?

Take care, everyone

rhinomelon · July 9, 2007

Oh yeah...on the funeral thing. Isn't the purpose to "reverence" the deceased? It's not to worship them...so I think is not only tremendously valid, but head on when talking of something being reverent or not.

Is reverence (as in solemn, quiet, reserved) the only acceptable "mood" (for lack of a better term) for worship? (Maybe there's a light out there yet! )

Moreover, I don't know of a single dictionary that uses "noisy" as part of the defintion of "reverant."

Actually, "reverence" basically means "deep respect or honor". Silent or noisy really doesn't enter into reverence as such. Are there dictionaries that use "quiet" or "silent" as part of the definition?

You can go about and "not know" His opinion about such things, and become part of the cleansing that will occur when Christ returns, or you can choose to listen and hearken to the latter day prophets He has sent to teach us about such things.

I believe I do know His opinion about such things. But I appreciate your concern. I will keep an eye out for modern day prophets. :unsure:

And I agree with your concern about packaging religion. I don't like it either. I simply think we should separate the packaging from what it contains. But I would also point out that the LDS church does it just like everybody else (remember, I live in Utah). It's a tricky road to travel, but that's the culture we live in.

Take care, everyone <_<

PacMan · July 9, 2007

Rhino,

For some people, definitely. There is nothing inherently wrong with any style of music, even though you won't hear heavy metal too often at American funerals. Personally, really heavy metal is just distracting, so it wouldn't really help me worship. But then, I feel the same way about loud pipe organs.
So, did I just shoot out the light at the end of the tunnel?

I'm afraid so. I can simply not accept that Heavy Metal is an appropriate medium for reverent worship. "Reverent" is just about the antithesis of "noisy," which Heavy Metal is scientifically defined. Again, we're not talking about worshipping...but the reverent use of God's name. In the end, I don't know that anyone believes that "Heavy Metal" music would be appropriate in the presence of the Lord. If we disagree there, then I think we need to agree to disagree.

Cheers,

PacMan

P.S.

Is reverence (as in solemn, quiet, reserved) the only acceptable "mood" (for lack of a better term) for worship?

NO! Clearly not! I've already said this...time and time again. I DO believe, however, it is the only acceptable "mood" to use the name of God. Developing our talents is (in my mind) a form of worshipping and should simply not be irreverent. But when we start referring to the Lord, I think it's time to take the sandals off before we continue on to the burning bush, hush up a bit, and keep our heads bowed.

P.S.S.

Are there dictionaries that use "quiet" or "silent" as part of the definition?

Of course (I checked to make sure before I hit submit).

cdowis · July 9, 2007

Is reverence (as in solemn, quiet, reserved) the only acceptable "mood" (for lack of a better term) for worship?

The central purpose in our worship service is the administration of the sacrament, with hymns and talks suborinate to that purpose. Since we do not have professional ministry, that purpose is not to "worship Christ thru entertainment."

So, at least in our worship service, the answer to your question is "Yes".

rhinomelon · July 9, 2007

The central purpose in our worship service is the administration of the sacrament, with hymns and talks suborinate to that purpose. Since we do not have professional ministry, that purpose is not to "worship Christ thru entertainment."
So, at least in our worship service, the answer to your question is "Yes".

I wouldn't characterize evangelical services as trying to "worship Christ thru entertainment". I realize that for your worship services, solemn reverence is the accepted "mood". It is in many mainstream Christian churches as well, including some evangelical ones. But does this mean that it is the only acceptable "mood" for everyone? If I indeed worship with guitars and drums, I realize that would be unacceptable in the LDS church and culture, but do you believe that it would be unacceptable to God?

I'm afraid so. I can simply not accept that Heavy Metal is an appropriate medium for reverent worship. "Reverent" is just about the antithesis of "noisy," which Heavy Metal is scientifically defined. Again, we're not talking about worshipping...but the reverent use of God's name. In the end, I don't know that anyone believes that "Heavy Metal" music would be appropriate in the presence of the Lord. If we disagree there, then I think we need to agree to disagree.

Well, if we're being scientific, "noisy" is relative. Compared to jet engines and supernovas, heavy metal is pretty tame. <_<

But in terms of using the Lord's name and worshipping, I think the two are inextricably intertwined. I certainly would not want to use the Lord's name unless I did approach it with reverence (in terms of respect, not quietude) and worship. Do you have any biblical references that suggest that we can only say the Lord's name in quiet solemnity?

And I would put myself forward as an example of someone who truly believes that heavy metal music would be appropriate before God, just as much as any other musical form. I also know several young people in the youth group I lead who would agree. :unsure:

Take care, everyone

PacMan · July 9, 2007

Rhino,

Well, if we're being scientific, "noisy" is relative. Compared to jet engines and supernovas, heavy metal is pretty tame.

Actually, its fairly interesting (and Iâ??m no expert). It hasnâ??t much to do with decibels, but how the cords interact with the brain. Harmony for, example, somehow increases brain activity. Heavy Metal with its contradicting cords, etc., has an adverse effectâ?¦and thatâ??s whatâ??s termed as â??noise.â?

But in terms of using the Lord's name and worshipping, I think the two are inextricably intertwined. I certainly would not want to use the Lord's name unless I did approach it with reverence (in terms of respect, not quietude) and worship. Do you have any biblical references that suggest that we can only say the Lord's name in quiet solemnity?

Theyâ??re not inextricably intertwined. One can worship without using His name. Butâ?¦the Lordâ??s name was certainly used reverently in the Holy of Holies. Do you have any NT reference that suggests that we can say the Lordâ??s name in anything other than quiet solemnity?

And I would put myself forward as an example of someone who truly believes that heavy metal music would be appropriate before God, just as much as any other musical form. I also know several young people in the youth group I lead who would agree.

And I disagree. Heavy Metal music has no redeeming qualities. Again, would you play Heavy Metal at a funeral? If you wouldnâ??t use it to â??revereâ? another human, I daresay itâ??s inappropriate to use to revere the Lord.

PacMan

rhinomelon · July 9, 2007

Actually, its fairly interesting (and Iâ??m no expert). It hasnâ??t much to do with decibels, but how the cords interact with the brain. Harmony for, example, somehow increases brain activity. Heavy Metal with its contradicting cords, etc., has an adverse effectâ?¦and thatâ??s whatâ??s termed as â??noise.â?

There is a great deal of classical music that contains contradicting chords as well. Is this music inherently blasphemous, or is it acceptable because one can play it with an orchestra in tuxedos?

Theyâ??re not inextricably intertwined. One can worship without using His name. Butâ?¦the Lordâ??s name was certainly used reverently in the Holy of Holies. Do you have any NT reference that suggests that we can say the Lordâ??s name in anything other than quiet solemnity?

Do you have any references (from anywhere in the Bible!) suggesting that quiet solemnity is the only way in which one can use the Lord's name? If the answer is no, then you really don't have anything the back up your point of view. The Old Testament certainly doesn't fall on your side of the aisle. Also, when you speak about the Lord's name, what name is that? Is it simply "Lord", or are you referring to the tetragrammeton, YHWH?

I would agree that one can worship without using the Lord's name, but should one use the Lord's name without worshiping in some way? And again, what name are you thinking of?

Again, would you play Heavy Metal at a funeral? If you wouldnâ??t use it to â??revereâ? another human, I daresay itâ??s inappropriate to use to revere the Lord.

Again, the comparison between true worship and funeral says a great deal about LDS culture regarding worship. Do you have a better example? And I would play heavy metal at a funeral, if that's what the decedent wanted. In that case, heavy metal would be used to honor and show respect for the person who had died. I can respect the fact that you would never use that music, but I can also see no reason why billions of other people have to do the same, simply because Pacman wants it that way.

Do you have any evidence? Or biblical references? Or something other than personal opinion? If personal opinion is really all you have, then the "live and let live" approach advocated by the apostle Paul would seem to be the best way to proceed for you. Instead of condemning the means by which other people genuinely worship (note: I said you are condemning the means, not the person), why not accept it as the way they choose to express their faith and worship God?

Take care, everyone

PacMan · July 9, 2007

Rhino,

There is a great deal of classical music that contains contradicting chords as well. Is this music inherently blasphemous, or is it acceptable because one can play it with an orchestra in tuxedos?

Goodnessâ?¦youâ??re blatantly ridiculous. This is really, very stupid. I never said anything of the sort, but what we have discussed is using the name of God in certain musicâ?¦some of them being inherently irreverent. If you continue to devolve this discussion in defensive rhetoric, I will happily see it die.

Do you have any references (from anywhere in the Bible!) suggesting that quiet solemnity is the only way in which one can use the Lord's name? If the answer is no, then you really don't have anything the back up your point of view.

On the contrary, Iâ??m in need of providing nothing. Iâ??ve stated my belief and for you to suggest that I am wrong without stating anything concerning such a usage from the NT is just as ridiculous as what youâ??re asking me to provide.

And generally, I donâ??t know that it matters what â??nameâ? is used. Heâ??s obviously got manyâ?¦and they should all be used respectfully.

I would agree that one can worship without using the Lord's name, but should one use the Lord's name without worshiping in some way?

I donâ??t have a problem using it in contextual conversation as we are. Itâ??s appropriate and grammatically necessaryâ?¦and I donâ??t think I or you are using it in such a way to be disrespectful. I donâ??t know if Iâ??d call this worship, but you can judge that for yourself.

Again, the comparison between true worship and funeral says a great deal about LDS culture regarding worship.

No, itâ??s not. Itâ??s about you evading the issue and twisting the question. I have NEVER worshipped the deceased at a funeral, so stop twisting my statements. It has everything to do with â??reverencingâ? them. Heavy Metal music is inappropriate for funeralsâ?¦unless of course weâ??re talking of Gene Simmons. I daresay, however, that Jesus is not Gene Simmons and certainly did many, greater things with His life then create irreverent noise. But to your point, you add little notions and exceptions just to strain the pointâ?¦how many people request Heavy Metal music at their funeral? Weâ??re talking common sense. Good griefâ?¦youâ??re being ridiculous.

Or something other than personal opinion? If personal opinion is really all you have, then the "live and let live" approach advocated by the apostle Paul would seem to be the best way to proceed for you.

Iâ??ll let you live all youâ??d like! I donâ??t care what you do! Regardless, it still doesnâ??t change what is, and what is not blasphemy. Moreover, it seems that YOUâ??RE the one having a difficult time â??living and letting live.â? I donâ??t care if you agree with me, but apparently you have much ado that I donâ??t agree with you!

Instead of condemning the means by which other people genuinely worship (note: I said you are condemning the means, not the person), why not accept it as the way they choose to express their faith and worship God?

Huh? And these are suppose to by mutually exclusive?

PacMan

rhinomelon · July 9, 2007

I never said anything of the sort, but what we have discussed is using the name of God in certain musicâ?¦some of them being inherently irreverent. If you continue to devolve this discussion in defensive rhetoric, I will happily see it die.

I don't see much defensiveness in the section you noted, but whatever. Attacking me personally won't get you anywhere. Anyway, using the name of God in irreverent music you define as blasphemy, and I want you to define what makes a certain kind of music inherently irreverent. Your only real definition appears to be what would be acceptable at funerals. I have my ears open for anything else (other than "This is what I think").

On the contrary, Iâ??m in need of providing nothing. Iâ??ve stated my belief and for you to suggest that I am wrong without stating anything concerning such a usage from the NT is just as ridiculous as what youâ??re asking me to provide.

Okay, so you can call my means of worship blasphemous, and then not back it up with anything concrete? And I have yet to hear any reason why only NT references should be allowed to speak on what is proper regarding the use of God's name in worship. If the OT doesn't agree with you, cut it out, perhaps?

And generally, I donâ??t know that it matters what â??nameâ? is used. Heâ??s obviously got manyâ?¦and they should all be used respectfully.

So you believe that the ancient Hebrews were guilty of blasphemy if they used any of God's names (and there are dozens that are used throughout the OT) more than once a year? Do you have a source for this?

I have NEVER worshipped the deceased at a funeral, so stop twisting my statements. It has everything to do with â??reverencingâ? them.

Then the comparison is not a good one, because I certainly do much more than reverence God in my worship of Him. In other words, I don't think I can stop at "reverencing" God without moving on to worship; where God is concerned, the two are inseparable in my mind.

Iâ??ll let you live all youâ??d like! I donâ??t care what you do! Regardless, it still doesnâ??t change what is, and what is not blasphemy. Moreover, it seems that YOUâ??RE the one having a difficult time â??living and letting live.â? I donâ??t care if you agree with me, but apparently you have much ado that I donâ??t agree with you!

:unsure: This is truly odd. You call the form of worship used by millions of people blasphemous and vain, while I have never said anything remotely comparable regarding the traditional LDS form of worship. This is "live and let live" in the sense of Paul's writing on the subject? I realize I will never convince you, but perhaps I'll have expanded your horizons (or those of the readers) a bit on the subject of worship, at least beyond the box of LDS culture and practice.

Now, just take a deep breath and try to answer some of my questions, since you seem to evade some of them over and over. I'll be busy using my stupidity to concoct more blatantly ridiculous rejoinders to your continued restatements of your personal opinion. <_<

Take care, everyone

rhinomelon · July 9, 2007

Just FYI, after doing a few searches of the New Testament, the only kind of music mentioned is the singing of psalms and spiritual songs. Earlier you appeared to be saying that since I couldn't find references regarding the use of God's name in something other than quiet solemnity. But now I find that there are no references even speaking to the use of instruments! If we are to strictly follow what the NT says (and not go beyond it), then should we not abandon all instruments in worship, other than our own voices?

I would also point out the passage at the end of James, in which those who are merry are encouraged to sing psalms (which do have the name of God in them). The Greek word really means joyous and merry! It's not a quiet solemnity; certainly one would not be joyous and merry at a funeral (at least in western society).

The New Testament by itself has very little to say about how to worship, or how to use the Lord's name in worship. So again, why should your opinion count more than the Old Testament (since the NT doesn't really help either of us)?

Take care, everyone

PacMan · July 9, 2007

Rhino,

I have my ears open for anything else (other than "This is what I think").

If youâ??re looking for the Lord to come down and tell you that Heavy Metal is irreverent, youâ??re going to be waiting a long timeâ??thatâ??s why we have prophets; to clarify such things. Moreover, I certainly believe that within the use of our language, most would agree that such music is most irreverent. If you think thatâ??s my opinion, so be it. I really donâ??t care.

And I have yet to hear any reason why only NT references should be allowed to speak on what is proper regarding the use of God's name in worship. If the OT doesn't agree with you, cut it out, perhaps?

Cut out the OT? This is a fairly na

rhinomelon · July 9, 2007

If youâ??re looking for the Lord to come down and tell you that Heavy Metal is irreverent, youâ??re going to be waiting a long timeâ??thatâ??s why we have prophets; to clarify such things.

Just out of curiosity, is there any official LDS doctrine on the subject of heavy metal? I'm not sure, myself.

Cut out the OT? This is a fairly na

rhinomelon · July 9, 2007

Let me see if I can sum up the discussion up to this point, and explain why I don't find Pacman's analysis very convincing. I don't really expect much of a response, as this conversation has likely run its course, at least as far as what Pacman or I can bring to the table. And keep in mind that this is how I see it, and I am by no means an impartial judge :unsure:

When the discussion turned to music, Pacman appeared to state quite unequivocably that certain types of music are inherently irreverent, and that any irreverent medium that used the Lord's name (even to praise Him) is therefore blasphemous. Also, vain repetition is also blasphemous. On this last we agree, however we did not agree on what constitutes vain repetition. Pacman seemed to support the idea of an objective standard, because he believed that it could not depend on the heart of the person doing the repetition. However, when pressed, Pacman was unable to come up with any kind of objective standard by which to judge, except his own perceptions of the value of the repetition. This is the very opposite of an objective standard, and so carries no more weight than my personal views on the subject.

When the conversation turned to biblical data, Pacman seemed to ignore all of the Old Testament references talking about loud instruments, making a joyful noise, and shouting to the Lord (not to mention all of the Psalms that made use of the names of God, sometimes repeatedly). He instead wanted me to provide New Testament evidence indicating that the use of loud instruments, heavy metal, and anything other than quiet solemnity is condoned by God. There is none, and I freely admit that. But neither is there any evidence to support Pacman's contention that some musical forms are inherently irreverent (and therefore blasphemous), or his belief that repeating the name of God is blasphemous. Although, to be fair, Pacman did soften his stances somewhat over the course of the thread. Only some kinds of rock music are inherently irreverent and therefore blasphemous when the lyrics use the name of God, and only some kinds of repetition are vain. But what separates vain repetition from legitimate repetition, if not the heart and intent of the person saying it?

In terms of musical forms that are inherently irreverent, I am still at a loss as to what separates those forms from those musical styles that can be used in tandem with the name of God in worship. To me, it seems as though Pacman's personal tastes in music are the deciding factor for him. That's fine, but he offered no reason why everyone else should adopt his personal taste in music. He offered an explanation involving certain harmonic structures and their effect on the brain, but has yet to explain how this would apply to other cultures, whose musical structures and forms are wildly different from the western model he takes as his baseline (including the ancient Hebrews, who likely eschewed harmony altogether).

Overarching the whole discussion, at least for me, was the thought of one person's preferences and opinions (without supporting evidence or argumentation) being used to condemn the worship practices and convictions of many other people (not condemning the persons themselves, per se). This is especially galling for me when I don't see any biblical support marshalled in defense of that position, and there is plenty of biblical support on my end.

I would prefer to take Paul's "live and let live" approach to areas in which the scriptures give no clear teaching. In Paul's day, the issues were celebrating certain days and eating or not eating certain foods. People were taking their own personal convictions in these areas as the standard by which everyone should live. Paul stood against that behavior, especially in I Corinthians 8 when he wrote about eating meat sacrificed to idols. He realized that people would have differing convictions on certain matters, and that love should be the overarching principle in negotiating these differences. Paul did not condemn either side of the issue, but insisted that Christians should act with grace regarding these differences, always looking out for the other person, in order to not make them stumble.

I definitely see this issue of music and the repetition of God's name as this kind of issue. Clearly Pacman and I have differing convictions on the matter, and biblically speaking, we are really on equal footing in terms of the New Testament. I will not state that Pacman's form of worship and concern for reverencing the name of God is blasphemous or irreverent (since I don't believe it is, and I admire his respect for God's name(s)). But I am still not understanding why, in light of the lack of apparent support for Pacman's position, he would continue to dismiss forms of worship that he doesn't like, calling them blasphemous and examples of vain repetition. Why shouldn't the worship that I give God be worthy of equal respect (other than personal opinion)? I'm telling Pacman to pick up an electric guitar for the next sacrament meeting; I'm asking him to see that even those who worship with Christian rock music (even the heavier stuff), are indeed worshipping with their whole hearts as best they are able, and that God accepts their "sacrifices of praise", to use the biblical language. I'm still unsure as to what the hang up is in that regard.

I just wanted to sort it all out and get out my thoughts in a sort of "position paper", as opposed to dishing out bits and pieces in response to Pacman's comments. I hope the above clears up my thinking for Pacman, or whoever might be interested in reading it! <_<

Take care, everyone

Deborah · July 9, 2007

to me it's not so much the issue of the music one chooses to worship with, though I do find some forms more reverent and uplifting than others, but the issue of taking the Saviour's name and making it a slogan or a commodity. I just think we ought to have more reverence for the one who freely gave his life for us and who is after all the Creator of this world. It is one thing to worship joyously, and LDS have quite joyous occasions as well; but it is another to use Christ's name as some form of shibboleth to say I'm saved. That's almost cultish to me.

PacMan · July 10, 2007

Rhino,

On music standards, a good place to start is the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet, although I donâ??t recall how spelled out it is.

Harps, trumpets, cymbalsâ?¦sounds melodious to me.

I'm here to talk about the issues, which is probably why your continued overreaction and name-calling seems so odd to me.

Then be more careful in framing your questions, because you misrepresented me and confounded terms (worship/reverence) in doing so on a number of occasions.

I understand the differences, and can separate their meanings. What I cannot do, however, is separate them in practice where God is concerned. Where would I draw the line between reverencing God and worshiping Him?

Reverencing and worshipping are mutually exclusive. If you choose to combine them, then thatâ??s your prerogativeâ?¦nothing wrong with that. All the same, to strictly reverence the Lord should hold a higher standard than reverencing the deceased, and that was the point of the parallel. If you reject it, then so be it.

On my comments concerning rock, I do believe that I clarified it sufficiently (using rock as synonymous with hard-rock or heavy-metalâ??an imprecise abbreviation). And again, I never said that all Christian Rock was blasphemous.

I agree, which is why most people (including myself) don't do that. My job as a youth pastor is specifically to not condone every little path, but to teach them how to stay on the right one, as guided by Scripture and the Holy Spirit. Musical taste is simply something that is not addressed by Scripture, so it is a matter of individual conviction.

Good. I sincerely am appreciative of the good work you do. Concerning the great influence that music has on youth, I must believe that is not only a critical, but key area of importance. But taking the issue broader, again, I donâ??t think simply because the Bible is silent on an issue doesnâ??t mean the Lord hasnâ??t an opinion on the matter. I simply see the fruits of the spirit as love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

meekness, temperanceâ?¦and I suppose that Heavy Metal are contra to them. I donâ??t think it is neither peaceful nor gentle (nor necessarily any of the others).

And on a more personal note, I think that this conversation would go much better (as well as be much more interesting) if you would stop taking personal offense at every little thing I post.

In an ongoing discussion, itâ??s tremendously frustrating when logical components are flipped. The personal offense isnâ??t just that youâ??re getting it wrong, but just assuming things rather than actually representing my position. Iâ??m sure, if you felt the same, itâ??d be at least a slight bit aggravating.

But back to Matthew, the point is that apparently, these people honestly had the â??heart,â? believing themselves saved for calling on the Lordâ??s name. Itâ??s not the case, and I donâ??t believe that using the Lordâ??s name casually (and its determinant) is simply defined by oneâ??s heart.

PacMan

cksalmon · July 10, 2007

I just wanted to sort it all out and get out my thoughts in a sort of "position paper", as opposed to dishing out bits and pieces in response to Pacman's comments. I hope the above clears up my thinking for Pacman, or whoever might be interested in reading it!

I've been following the discussion, rhino. I appreciate your summary here. With regard to the points you've made, I'm in complete agreement. I see your position as biblically sound. But, then, I would, as it mirrors my own.

Best.

CKS

PacMan · July 10, 2007

Rhino,

-Certain types of music are inherently irreverent.

-Vain repetition is blasphemous.

-There is an objective standard-thatâ??s the Lordâ??s; whether I quantify or not. But the fruits of the spirit of peace and gentleness are good standards. Moreover, for those that reverence their deceased, their reverence for the Lord should be all the more â??reverent,â? which includes solemnity.

-Rhino believes (via undocumented sources) that the OT celebrations of worship justify Heavy Metal music because the Hebrew music hadnâ??t harmony, but was considered â??noise.â? He continued this notion despite the various instruments used, including trumpets and harps and cymbals (harmonious instruments)â?¦not just percussion instruments.

-Rhino has confused my position on worshipping of various forms and blasphemy. Blasphemy is the misuse of the name of God. Simply using â??loudâ? instruments does not make the medium inappropriate. Again, this is another example of Rhino misrepresenting my position which I have already clarified.

-While the Bible does not treat Heavy Metal, neither does it condone it. This asinine reasoning is useless.

-Again, as I have indicated multiple times, vain or monotonous repetition is blasphemous. If it isnâ??t necessary, then itâ??s become casual. If casual, it is vain. Unless such songs have continued utility by using the Lordâ??s name, it is vain. And thatâ??s what makes it blasphemy.

-On music, againâ?¦Iâ??ve addressed this above.

-Rhino used ridiculous example of Indians, etc., that are as a groupâ?¦non-Christian. I do not consider their worship in their many gods as blasphemous if their deities in truth do not exist--there is nothing to blaspheme. Moreover, that they use the name of God in repetition via such music is unsupported, nor do I care that it is. Iâ??m not going to be baited into qualifying every extenuating and mitigated circumstance.

-Rhino continues to equate Heavy Metal music with ancient Hebrew music because it â??likely eschewed harmonyâ? altogether. Such is not only thus far unfounded, but not a parallel of a singular characteristic. I donâ??t know anyone that would confuse the two, and as such the parallel is ridiculous.

-Rhino is quick to ask one to â??live and let live,â? yet Iâ??m apparently not allowed to hold to my opinion. Rhino has the ability to reject it and take offense in it all. Considering the history of â??drugs, sex, and rock and roll,â? Iâ??m surprised that Rhino defends such a consideration rather than rejecting the â??even appearance of evil.â?

-There is NO biblical support for Rhino. There were no such instruments as electric guitars or amplifiers in ancient Hebrew times. Such parallels to â??cymbalsâ? as â??noise makersâ? are a stretch, at best.

-All those that say, â??Lord, Lordâ?¦â? Those referred to seemed genuinely surprised at their judgment, evidence that â??heartâ? most apparently doesnâ??t necessarily matter in exclusivity.

-Most importantly, I have never condemned anyone for their preferences. Blasphemy can be done in ignorance, and in such a case it is not a sin.

PacMan

rhinomelon · July 10, 2007

Harps, trumpets, cymbalsâ?¦sounds melodious to me.

Cymbals wouldn't carry a melody, as they are a more percussive instrument. The trumpets used were likely shofars, or hollowed out ram's horns. These were also largely incapable of playing any sort of multitone melody (speaking as someone who has actually played one). Harps would be the best bet here. And as for the sources for the monophonic nature of ancient Hebrew music, try A. Z. Idelsohn, Jewish Music in its Historical Development (1967); A. Sendrey, Music in Ancient Israel (1969); E. Werner, A Voice Still Heard (1976).

In any case, the musical form would be quite alien to our western ears. It probably wouldn't automatically engender feelings of peace and worship for us, at least at first.

Itâ??s not the case, and I donâ??t believe that using the Lordâ??s name casually (and its determinant) is simply defined by oneâ??s heart.

I agree, but "casual" is indeed a matter of the heart. I believe you agreed earlier when I said there is a difference between something saying the name of Christ just a few times after hitting one's thumb with a hammer (casual), and person who says the name of Christ a hundred times for the purpose of focusing entirely on Christ in worship (not casual, even though it's technically repetitious).

to me it's not so much the issue of the music one chooses to worship with, though I do find some forms more reverent and uplifting than others, but the issue of taking the Saviour's name and making it a slogan or a commodity. I just think we ought to have more reverence for the one who freely gave his life for us and who is after all the Creator of this world.

I agree. Sometimes people do go too far in their sloganeering, and use Christ's name to make a quick buck. And I also agree that the form of music is not an issue. <_<

I've been following the discussion, rhino. I appreciate your summary here. With regard to the points you've made, I'm in complete agreement. I see your position as biblically sound. But, then, I would, as it mirrors my own.

Well, I'm glad somebody else is reading this. I was beginning to feel as if Pacman and I were hashing it out in our own little world :unsure:

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