PacMan Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 PacMan,With God all things are possible ...Mark.1026] And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?[27] And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.Answer the real question--can, and would God lie?PacMan
maklelan Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 Mak- equating God with Johnny is blasphemy. Stop and repent. Quickly. One of them is getting angry .I wasn't equating the two, just pointing out that in Johnny's theology God is at his beck and call, and will be whatever Johnny needs him to be in order to wriggle out of whatever corner he's painted himself into, even if that means God needs to be a liar.Answer the real question--can, and would God lie?While you're answering that question, Johnny, can God also sin? How about be wrong or make a mistake? Can God fail, Johnny? If you just say everything's possible without out all qualifying it you're leaving it open to a lot of implications.
johnny Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 PacMan,Surely, there is desireâ?¦to receive baptism by water! How in the world can you in good conscience, use this to support this â??doctrineâ? of baptism by desire.Acts 10:47,48 supports the idea that God is not bound to baptism, the Holy Ghost was received without baptism.Paradise in Greek is a place of happiness. Donâ??t you think that anything would be happier than being crucified on a cross? The notion that this refers to heaven is complete nonsense with NO Biblical support.Those in Paradise are with Jesus, Christ is God (John 1:1).What do you think baptism runs on? Hid grace!Titus 3:7 does not say anything about baptism, it is simply referring to justification.On the contrary, Christ said that explicitly MUST be received by WATER! Does God lie?God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments as the above scriptures reveal.maklelan,PacMan, nothing is impossible with God. He can even sin and lie. God cannot lie he is truth. God cannot sin he is holy.
PacMan Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 Ahhha!God cannot lie he is truth. God cannot sin he is holy.I am sorry...you may wrest the scriptures all that you'd like...but he gave explicit instruction on getting into heaven, and that you MUST have received baptism by water!To suggest that He is all powerful and can thus change His mind...or that He is not bound by His own words...and because of it all He is justified in going back on those words concerning a baptism by water, turns God into a big FAT liar. Johnny...I don't think we believe in the same God. Mine isn't a liar.34
johnny Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 PacMan,I am sorry...you may wrest the scriptures all that you'd like...but he gave explicit instruction on getting into heaven, and that you MUST have received baptism by water!Does this "MUST" include little children?The Catholic Church teaches:1261 - As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," [Mk 10 14; 1 Tim 2:4] allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.To suggest that He is all powerful and can thus change His mind...or that He is not bound by His own words...and because of it all He is justified in going back on those words concerning a baptism by water, turns God into a big FAT liar. Johnny...I don't think we believe in the same God. Mine isn't a liar.The Mormon God is different than the God revealed by Catholicism.
Ron Beron Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 The Mormon God is different than the God revealed by Catholicism.Do you mean the Catholicism that was revealed through the likes of the Medici or the Borjias who, as detailed, committed the following * Pope Stephen VI (896-897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber * Pope John XII (937-964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife. * Pope Boniface VIII (1012-1024), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy * Pope Benedict IX (1032-1044,1045,1047-1048), who "sold" the Papacy * Pope Urban VI (1378-1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured. * Pope Alexander VI (1492-1503), a Borja, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin. * Pope Leo X (1513-1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors reserves on a single ceremony * Pope Clement VII (1523-1534), also a Medici, whose power-politiking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked. Wiki If what you are seeking is a form of legalistic Christianity then you would have a difficult time jiving it with Jesus' openness and lack of legalistic salvation.
johnny Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 EnemyAce,Do you mean the Catholicism that was revealed through the likes of the Medici or the Borjias who, as detailed, committed the followingI mean the Catholicism that reveals that God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
PacMan Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 PacMan,Does this "MUST" include little children?As soon as you realize your hypocrisy, I will happily engage your tu quoque.The Catholic Church teaches:1261 - As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," [Mk 10 14; 1 Tim 2:4] allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.So...baptism by water is necessary. By not receiving such a baptism would be to prevent little, innocent children (whom some how are able to "ask" for baptism) from salvation. But there's still a baptism by desire...which has the same effect as baptism of water, but uses no water. Although Christ said water is needed, he lied. It's not. Desire is OK for the ignorant...but not children. The Mormon God is different than the God revealed by Catholicism.I agree. Ours exists...and doesn't lie.PacMan
johnny Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 PacMan,As soon as you realize your hypocrisy, I will happily engage your tu quoque.My words are consistent with scripture. Scripture reveals that God is not bound by Baptism and scripture reveals that God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism. I believe in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.Do little children who have died without baptism get into heaven ... earlier you said a person MUST be baptized by water?
maklelan Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 maklelan,God cannot lie he is truth. God cannot sin he is holy.1) So you're wrong when you say that nothing is impossible for God.2) So God has rules that he has to follow? Sounds like he's not quite omnipotent.
johnny Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 maklelan,1) So you're wrong when you say that nothing is impossible for God.Go back to my earlier post ... I said in regards to salvation ..2) So God has rules that he has to follow? Sounds like he's not quite omnipotentIf God has rules then how can little children who have died without baptism enter heaven, Paul is clear that little children have sin.
PacMan Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 johnny,My words are consistent with scripture. Scripture reveals that God is not bound by Baptism and scripture reveals that God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism. I believe in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.Explain how God lying is consistent with scripture? And stop this strawman of God being bound by baptism....what's that suppose to mean? That God needs baptism? He already received it, so it's a moot issue! If you mean that God doesn't need to only save those that receive baptism by water, then why did he say it? That would also make Him a respecter of persons...again, a liar. Your words are highly INCONSISTENT BLASPHEMY!Answer the question...how is God saying something then not following it NOT make HIM a liar?Actually...I realize the problem. You believe God can lie...contrary to scripture.PacMan
johnny Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 PacMan,Explain how God lying is consistent with scripture?God is not lying, he reveals that he has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism (John 3:5) AND HE REVEALS that he himself is not bound by his sacraments (Acts 10:44-48; Mark 10:26,27)And stop this strawman of God being bound by baptism....what's that suppose to mean? It means "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).Your words are highly INCONSISTENT BLASPHEMY!Your words are not consistent, earlier you said "you MUST have received baptism by water"If it is MUST then how can little children who have died without baptism enter heaven, Paul is clear that little children have sin? Paul clearly says "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).Answer the question...how is God saying something then not following it NOT make HIM a liar?Catholics follow God's word that is why they baptize even little children. The Catholic Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." As a Catholic I believe in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood which consistent with scripture.
PacMan Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 johnny,God is not lying, he reveals that he has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism (John 3:5) AND HE REVEALS that he himself is not bound by his sacraments (Acts 10:44-48; Mark 10:26,27)These don't address ANYTHING with regards to SALVATION WITHOUT BAPTISM BY WATER!! There is NO revelation here! You are proof-texting Christ's words! OF COURSE God can save those that love money...that's why he created Faith, Repentance, Baptism, etc.!!!Stop evading the question. How can Christ contradict himself and lie?PacMan
johnny Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 PacMan,How can Christ contradict himself and lie?God cannot contradict himself and he cannot lie. That is why the Catholics baptizes little children because John 3:5 says ""Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" John 3:5 DOES NOT exclude little children.Do you think God is contradicting himself when John 3:5 reveals that little children also need water baptism? Is the Book of Mormon contradicting John 3:5 when it reveals "infant baptism is an evil abomination"?Stop evading the question. Stop evading the question, earlier you said "you MUST have received baptism by water"If it is MUST then how can little children who have died without baptism enter heaven, Paul is clear that little children have sin (Romans 3:23)?Mormon Scripture reveals that 'it is solemn mockery' to baptize little children". Paul clearly says "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).Do you think Paul is lieing when he says ALL have sinned?ALL includes little children, little children have sin.
PacMan Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 johnny,God cannot contradict himself and he cannot lie. That is why the Catholics baptizes little children because John 3:5 says ""Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"Oh...and that's why Catholics preach this make-believe Baptism of Desire that has NOTHING to do with water?On Paul's "all have sinned..." I don't think Christ did. Do you?Darn those Catholics that screwed up the Bible compilations! PacManP.S. And since this will go nowhere, I stop keeping you in suspense. The Greek actually doesn't say "man," but refers to a grown, imperfect adult named Nicodemus. Because God is NOT a respecter of persons (as much as you may believe to the contrary), the criteria set forth is criteria for all MEN....not infants.The BoM is correct, and contains the fullness of the Gospel.
johnny Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 PacMan,Oh...and that's why Catholics preach this make-believe Baptism of Desire that has NOTHING to do with water?Catholics preach Baptism of Desire because it is consistent with scripture and tradition.On Paul's "all have sinned..." I don't think Christ did. Do you?Christ did not sin yet he was baptized.The Greek actually doesn't say "man," but refers to a grown, imperfect adult named Nicodemus.Are you saying ONLY grown adults need baptism ... Pauls says ALL have sinned?Darn those Catholics that screwed up the Bible compilations! The Catholic Church helps us understand that the Book of Mormon is inconsistent with the Bible. The BoM is correct, and contains the fullness of the Gospel.Please explain how the BoM of is correct when it is not consistent with the Bible.The Book of Mormon reveals "infant baptism is an evil abomination" and John 3:5 says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".The Book of Mormon reveals 'it is solemn mockery' to baptize little children" and Romans 3:5 says "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
PacMan Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, aDo ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?You believe God lies, because your beliefs contradict the Bible. God made an exclusive statement and you have doctrine that contradicts it. The Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel, and perfect harmony with the Bible. Children are innocent, and are not grown men like Nicodemus. Nothing in the Greek includes children...only an adult male, for which God is not a respecter of persons. On the contrary, your dogma has conflated contingencies for grown-ups, children, and those who have no knowledge...all together creating a liar of God.And you are disingenuous in your attempts to justify your idea that God can lie.Then again, Popes can murder...so why am I surprised?PacManI think we're done here. Thank you again for another dishonest exchange.
johnny Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 PacMan,You believe God lies, because your beliefs contradict the Bible. God made an exclusive statement and you have doctrine that contradicts it. Mormon scripture contradicts the Bible. The Book of Mormon teaches "infant baptism is an evil abomination". John 3:5 makes an exclusive statment "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" and the Bible reveals that no unclean person has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God (Eph 5:5).Children are innocent, and are not grown men like Nicodemus. How can children be innocent if Paul clearly says "ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)?
maklelan Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 maklelan,Go back to my earlier post ... I said in regards to salvation ..So he is lying when Christ says that you absolutely have to be baptized to enter the kingdom of God, correct? And God is able to lie since nothing is impossible when it comes to salvation, including failing to save people and lying about salvation.
johnny Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 maklelan,So he is lying when Christ says that you absolutely have to be baptized to enter the kingdom of God, correct?If you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED to enter the kingdom of God how can little children who have died without baptism enter the kingdom of God?Clearly little children are unclean because they have sin (Romans 3:23). Scripture says no unclean person has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God (Eph 5:5).
maklelan Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 maklelan,If you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED to enter the kingdom of God how can little children who have died without baptizm enter the kingdom of God?Baptism for the Dead. I know you're aware of it.Clearly little children are unclean because they have sin (Romans 3:23). Scripture says no unclean person has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God (Eph 5:5).Yeah, but that's what the free gift is, general salvation. All sins we are not responsible for (sins before we understand sin and such) are automatically wiped clean by Christ's Atonement. We're all well aware of this. By the way, does Romans 3:23 also means that Christ has sinned?
johnny Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 maklelan,Baptism for the Dead. I know you're aware of it.Baptism for the Dead was not practiced by the apostles.Does the Mormon Church teach that little children who have died without baptism are baptized by proxy? Doesn't the Book of Mormon teach that "infant baptism is an evil abomination"?Yeah, but that's what the free gift is, general salvation. All sins we are not responsible for (sins before we understand sin and such) are automatically wiped clean by Christ's Atonement. We're all well aware of this. Sin is not automatically wiped clean. The free gift comes from grace, it is not automatic.By the way, does Romans 3:23 also means that Christ has sinned?From other scripture we know that Christ did not sin and we know that Christ was baptized even though he had no sin.Infants have sin, infants need baptism.
maklelan Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 maklelan,Baptism for the Dead was not practiced by the apostles.1) Prove it.2) Neither was prayer to Mary or any saints, belief in a consubstantial trinity, belief in transubstantiation, prayers on a rosary, selling indulgences, the position of Pope, or any number of other non-biblical practices of Catholics. In Brazil I saw a man literally crucified and carried around town on Good Friday by the local Catholic church. They nailed him to a cross, carried him around and then took him directly to the hospital. That wasn't practiced by the Apostles. Sin is not automatically wiped clean.Then it's not a free gift. The free gift comes from grace, it is not automatic.It says it comes to all men, so how is it not automatic. You quoted an earlier verse that said "all" and used it to mean absolutely everyone."even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification." -Romans 5:18Explain how it coming upon all men is not automatic.Infants have sin, infants need baptism.Pedobaptism was not practiced by the apostles.From other scripture we know that Christ did not sin and we know that Christ was baptized even though he had no sin.And from other scripture we know that children do not need baptism.
johnny Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 maklelan,1) Prove it.In 1 Corinthians 15:29 Paul does not endorse the practice of Baptism for the Dead. It is certain that Paul was not referring to orthodox Christians baptizing the dead. There is no other evidence in the Bible or in the early Church Fathersâ?? writings of baptism being practiced on the living in place of the dead.Again I ask, does the Mormon Church teach that little children who have died without baptism are baptized by proxy? Doesn't the Book of Mormon teach that "infant baptism is an evil abomination"?Then it's not a free gift. A gift is given ... it is not automatically, it is a grace (Rom 5:1,2). A person is justified by the Savior’s grace through faith in him.Rom.5[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:[2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.Explain how it coming upon all men is not automatic.Romans 5:2 says it is accessed by faith, it is not automatic.How can it be automatic if baptism is necessary for salvation?Pedobaptism was not practiced by the apostles.Infant baptism is an apostolic tradition.And from other scripture we know that children do not need baptism.Which Bible scripture reveals "children do not need baptism"?
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