More DVD Fun!

[jwhitlock]

I never said the acts of either side were inappropriate you must have me confused with someone else. I am simply pointing out the obvious similarities.

So in answer to your question... No.

Are the LDS missionary efforts inappropriate....No

Was the Dvd "missionary effort" inappropriate....No

It is simply again a matter of perception.

Hope this helps,

Sentinus

Hmmm... must of have misunderstood the tone of your post #92 in this thread.

Still, I fail to see the "obvious similarities" in approaches. The mere fact of preaching a doctrine that differs from another's doctrine does not automatically qualify it as tearing down, even if that doctrine is the apostacy, or Joseph Smith's First Vision (or others). Whereas it is obvious from the DVD and other anti-Mormon activities that the primary purpose is to tear down the Church, it is not so obvious (as you would indicate) from the activities of missionaries, whose primary purpose is to build up.

So, whose approach do you consider more consistent with that of the early apostles?

[Sentinus]

Kinda like 18-20 year olds going door to door delivering their version of "the one true gospel"?

I still cannot believe that people here cannot see that the actions done on BOTH SIDES can and are viewed as offensive. Lds are offended by the video and Non lds are offended by them being told their religion is only "partly" true or that they will attain a "degree" of glory but not be exalted etc. etc. etc. BOTH side have commited similar transgressions, getting all "riled" up is pointless. Hold yourselves to the same standards and if you are honest and unbiased about it you would have to agree.

If you look at it from a "business" point of view all they were guilty of is "mass marketing" No different then "Door to door salesmen", only less intrusive IMO.

Hope all have a great day,

Sentinus

JWhitlock: see above quote

This post? that includes terms like BOTH SIDES and describes examples of how EACH side could be offended? Or could the tone of "all have a nice day" thrown you off? I guess I don't see how it could have been misunderstood. Still, not trying to be sarcastic but just wanted to help you understand my position.

Now a few questions for you.

Build up what? (The kingdom of God or the church's membership?)

Were you there when the apostles taught their gospel? I am sure that some Romans felt like their beliefs were being "torn down" by these "peasants/Jews". They must have "offended" someone most of them were killed if I remember correctly. All I am saying is there is always two sides. I am sure the Concerned Christians feel like they are "building up" as well. YOU just don't see it from their point of view. This is and always will be my stance, it seems yours will not change either (nor was I trying to change your opinion) I view this forum as a place to learn others views on a subject that interests me the idea that someones way of "missionary" work is better than another is just confusing to me.

Again have a great day,

Sentinus

[jwhitlock]

JWhitlock: see above quote

This post? that includes terms like BOTH SIDES and describes examples of how EACH side could be offended? Or could the tone of "all have a nice day" thrown you off? I guess I don't see how it could have been misunderstood. Still, not trying to be sarcastic but just wanted to help you understand my position.

Now a few questions for you.

Build up what? (The kingdom of God or the church's membership?)

Were you there when the apostles taught their gospel? I am sure that some Romans felt like their beliefs were being "torn down" by these "peasants/Jews". They must have "offended" someone most of them were killed if I remember correctly. All I am saying is there is always two sides. I am sure the Concerned Christians feel like they are "building up" as well. YOU just don't see it from their point of view. This is and always will be my stance, it seems yours will not change either (nor was I trying to change your opinion) I view this forum as a place to learn others views on a subject that interests me the idea that someones way of "missionary" work is better than another is just confusing to me.

Again have a great day,

Sentinus

There's always someone who is going to be offended, no matter how benign the intent may be. So just because someone is offended doesn't mean the message or the method is wrong. So far, that applies to both sides.

I do take issue with your opinion that Concerned Christians feel like they are building up. There is a significant difference between an organization that seeks primarily to bring people to Christ, and an organization that primarily seeks to tear down another religion first, and then possibly to bring people to Christ as a secondary effect. As has been discussed elsewhere on this board, the act of tearing down can direct people away from Christ as much as it can direct towards Christ. It is potentially damaging by its very nature and method. That's why it's wrong.

We are involved in building up the Kingdom of God. Anti-Mormons are are involved in very real ways in trying to tear it down. From Concerned Christians viewpoint, they appear to make no effort to understand the way Latter-day Saints really feel, or if any of us Mormons have any relationship with Christ. In their eyes, we have none. And it shows. Is that the way you feel about us?

You're right that there are always two sides. But that does not automatically make them equal, or alike in their motivations and methods and validity.

[Cold Steel]

"If a Faith that will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be weak". George A. Smith August 13th, 1871 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14 pg 216

And so we are. Each investigator who comes into the church examines the work, prays about it and accepts it based on what he or she feels was given.

The DVD is not an investigation into the church. It was hate mongering and it was deceptive. Many other Christians saw it similarly, so we're not alone. I'm familiar with the sourcs used and I know they were cherry picked misrepresentations expressly intended to deceive.

Teaching the apostasy is not denigrating other religions. Neither criticizing the creeds of men. Did not Jesus do the same during His mortal ministry? The focus of most protestants during the early 1800s was the damnation of others. Why else would there be such sectarian warfare in their revivals? The Restoration teaches salvation, not damnation. We do not condemn the members of other denominations to hell, but offer them the true gospel as it's been delivered to the earth. The appropriate response would be joy and acceptance, not hatred and rejection.

[Dale]

The folks that concocted the trivia for this DVD are blind guides. A lot of trivia they used have already been solidly answered trivia. The film would be ten minutes long if you cut out the nonsense already answered trivia in favor of genuine significant religious differences. The Evangelical church needs to fire the counter-cult movement not send them donations.

If the trivia in the film is unethical you can't tell me those Evangelicals who did this dirty deed don't have a false assurance of salvation. These sinners need to hear Jesus, but they arn't listening as the content of the film demonstrated.

[simply_disappear]

I would think there would be a number of LDS who would like for the First Presidency to respond themselves rather than relying on non-official sources.

The Prophet wrote our Primary a letter. It was neat. Our secretary was told she could have spoken to him personally but that he wasn't in his office. We used the letter in a Quarterly Activity with our primary children. It was one of the most spiritual meetings at Church I've ever had the pleasure of being involved in. Our Prophet truly does care about each of the Lord's flock.

[freakin a man]

Kinda like 18-20 year olds going door to door delivering their version of "the one true gospel"?

I still cannot believe that people here cannot see that the actions done on BOTH SIDES can and are viewed as offensive. Lds are offended by the video and Non lds are offended by them being told their religion is only "partly" true or that they will attain a "degree" of glory but not be exalted etc. etc. etc. BOTH side have commited similar transgressions, getting all "riled" up is pointless. Hold yourselves to the same standards and if you are honest and unbiased about it you would have to agree.

If you look at it from a "business" point of view all they were guilty of is "mass marketing" No different then "Door to door salesmen", only less intrusive IMO.

Hope all have a great day,

Sentinus

I do not believe 19 and 20 year old LDS missionaries are going door to door pretending to be experts on all religions of the world and blatantly misrepresent the people religious teachings in the name of Jesus and doing so because the love the people. I never spoke one word against Billy Graham or the Pope while on my mission. I did not spend time trying to prove the Evangelicals are a bunch of screwed up people with all sorts of false doctrines.

I am NOT offended by the DVD. Its nothing new. The issues raised in it are older than I am. My only issue is the claim it is done out of love. Love is a two way street. The recipient must also feel the love that is given. If I insult my wife, misrepresent her position on things, offend her, ect is this an act of love or contempt?

I say the latter but perhaps you have a different view. They just should be honest with their motives. This DVD is given to LDS because they have contempt for the LDS faith, Joseph Smith, ect. Not because they love us. I am still going through this DVD in parts and I have yet to find one thing in it that I would consider an act of "love".

[Sentinus]

There's always someone who is going to be offended, no matter how benign the intent may be. So just because someone is offended doesn't mean the message or the method is wrong. So far, that applies to both sides.

I do take issue with your opinion that Concerned Christians feel like they are building up. There is a significant difference between an organization that seeks primarily to bring people to Christ, and an organization that primarily seeks to tear down another religion first, and then possibly to bring people to Christ as a secondary effect. As has been discussed elsewhere on this board, the act of tearing down can direct people away from Christ as much as it can direct towards Christ. It is potentially damaging by its very nature and method. That's why it's wrong.

We are involved in building up the Kingdom of God. Anti-Mormons are are involved in very real ways in trying to tear it down. From Concerned Christians viewpoint, they appear to make no effort to understand the way Latter-day Saints really feel, or if any of us Mormons have any relationship with Christ. In their eyes, we have none. And it shows. Is that the way you feel about us?

You're right that there are always two sides. But that does not automatically make them equal, or alike in their motivations and methods and validity.

Again round the tree we go. You say that you are bringing people to Christ, and that you are "building up". Since they disagree with YOUR beliefs and are trying to bring people to their interpretation of Christ YOU and other LDS feel they are being "torn down". They believe that YOUR interpretation takes people away from Christ, so they have to disprove the LDS faith to get people to understand their side of the "argument" for Christ. It is still the same.

Concerned Christians (I am not one) would most likely say that YOU will not listen to their beliefs and that You make no effort to understand their belief either... Why ... because neither will concede the other is right or wrong.

IMO the act of claiming absolute truth is potentially dangerous and will draw people away from Christ.Thats why neither is wrong or right.

It seems that the statements you make would be more accurate if you would instead replace the word Christ with The Lds church, it seems that it would reflect more accuratly how you feel. Example:

"The act of tearing down can direct people away from The Lds church as much as it can direct towards The Lds church. It is potentially damaging by it's very nature and method. Thats why its wrong.

(I am quite sure the "anti" stuff has worked to drive people to investigate the Lds church as well, even though its intent is not to do such. Maybe you should thank them, negative publicity is still publicity.)

As for whether I think you have a relationship with Christ or not:

Yes I believe you do, as a once TBM I would say that we all have our versions of "the truth" and if you claim to follow the Judeao/Christian, Christ of the New Testament then you believe in Christ. (regardless of your interpretation.)

As for Motivation, and Validity I would say they are the same. As for methods I think they are similar, but yes different. But since your faith claims absolute truth it has no need to point out flaws or "tear down" that is conveniant for your side @ least. But claiming absolute truth is the cause for the "anti" sentiment anyway, so again round the tree we go.

Kindly,

Sentinus

[Tsuzuki]

My 5 year old got some toy gold metal awards and on one side of the toy is a pentagram along with of course a "Made in China" writing. I feel the influence of the devil every time I hold it in my hand.

Why is that?

[Sentinus]

I do not believe 19 and 20 year old LDS missionaries are going door to door pretending to be experts on all religions of the world and blatantly misrepresent the people religious teachings in the name of Jesus and doing so because the love the people. I never spoke one word against Billy Graham or the Pope while on my mission. I did not spend time trying to prove the Evangelicals are a bunch of screwed up people with all sorts of false doctrines.

I am NOT offended by the DVD. Its nothing new. The issues raised in it are older than I am. My only issue is the claim it is done out of love. Love is a two way street. The recipient must also feel the love that is given. If I insult my wife, misrepresent her position on things, offend her, ect is this an act of love or contempt?

I say the latter but perhaps you have a different view. They just should be honest with their motives. This DVD is given to LDS because they have contempt for the LDS faith, Joseph Smith, ect. Not because they love us. I am still going through this DVD in parts and I have yet to find one thing in it that I would consider an act of "love".

Please see my dialogue with Jwhitlock, this should help.

Sentinus

[jwhitlock]

Again round the tree we go. You say that you are bringing people to Christ, and that you are "building up". Since they disagree with YOUR beliefs and are trying to bring people to their interpretation of Christ YOU and other LDS feel they are being "torn down". They believe that YOUR interpretation takes people away from Christ, so they have to disprove the LDS faith to get people to understand their side of the "argument" for Christ. It is still the same.

Concerned Christians (I am not one) would most likely say that YOU will not listen to their beliefs and that You make no effort to understand their belief either... Why ... because neither will concede the other is right or wrong.

IMO the act of claiming absolute truth is potentially dangerous and will draw people away from Christ.Thats why neither is wrong or right.

It seems that the statements you make would be more accurate if you would instead replace the word Christ with The Lds church, it seems that it would reflect more accuratly how you feel. Example:

"The act of tearing down can direct people away from The Lds church as much as it can direct towards The Lds church. It is potentially damaging by it's very nature and method. Thats why its wrong.

(I am quite sure the "anti" stuff has worked to drive people to investigate the Lds church as well, even though its intent is not to do such. Maybe you should thank them, negative publicity is still publicity.)

As for whether I think you have a relationship with Christ or not:

Yes I believe you do, as a once TBM I would say that we all have our versions of "the truth" and if you claim to follow the Judeao/Christian, Christ of the New Testament then you believe in Christ. (regardless of your interpretation.)

As for Motivation, and Validity I would say they are the same. As for methods I think they are similar, but yes different. But since your faith claims absolute truth it has no need to point out flaws or "tear down" that is conveniant for your side @ least. But claiming absolute truth is the cause for the "anti" sentiment anyway, so again round the tree we go.

Kindly,

Sentinus

Absolute truth? I was unaware that we claimed that we had absolute truth. Do you have a reference, or is it something that has kindly been provided by someone outside the Church? Simply having strong beliefs or stating that the doctrines we have are true is a long way from absolute truth, which when I last looked, only God Himself has.

You continue to miss our point about the motivations of anti-Mormons. We see no evidence that it generally done out of love. Indeed, my personal, face to face experience with most critics of the Church (and NOT those who simply believe differently than we do) is that they harbor a significant amount of animosity towards me and the Church.

And we will continue to go around the tree. Enough examples have been given of anti-Mormon activity and how it differs from the preaching of the restored gospel. Your attempt to rephrase my statements away from Christ, and to equivocate on whether I have a relationship with Christ (first you say I do, then later I only believe) are both enlightening about how you view Latter-day Saints deep down inside.

One of the great flaws of anti-Mormon thinking is the perpetuation of the LDS Church as black and white in its declaration of "absolute truth" as you mistakenly phrase it. Whereas we ask others to come and bring the truth (even in Christ!) that they already have, our loving anti-Mormon friends reciprocate in no such way. You must renounce the evil falseness of your Mormon faith, or you will go to hell. Period.

The attacks anti-Mormons make against the Church are direct and identifiable as such. The attacks that you claim we make against others are indirect and related more towards doctrines others may not agree with. It's unfortunate you're having trouble seeing the difference.

[Pahoran]

Again round the tree we go. You say that you are bringing people to Christ, and that you are "building up". Since they disagree with YOUR beliefs and are trying to bring people to their interpretation of Christ YOU and other LDS feel they are being "torn down". They believe that YOUR interpretation takes people away from Christ, so they have to disprove the LDS faith to get people to understand their side of the "argument" for Christ. It is still the same.

Concerned Christians (I am not one) would most likely say that YOU will not listen to their beliefs and that You make no effort to understand their belief either... Why ... because neither will concede the other is right or wrong.

No, no, no, no and no.

Do you really not get it, Sentinus?

You seem to imagine to yourself that their techniques and ours, their goals and ours, are functionally indistinguishable. You seem to think that we only have a beef with them because we are on the receiving end, and that their beef with us has exactly the same level of legitimacy.

If you truly believe this--and it would take a prodigious, if not heroic, effort of misunderstanding to do so--then you really do not get it.

If Concerned Pseudochristians were to come to the doors of all those in their area of work who are not known to be members of Concerned Pseudochristians, and proceeded to share a message of why we can have a better shot at salvation by embracing their understanding of the gospel, these threads would not be happening. Such an approach would be genuinely parallel to what our missionaries do, and as such would not be "offensive" to any non-bigot.

But, as you perfectly well know, that is not what they did.

As you perfectly well know, their approach was not parallel to what our missionaries do.

As you perfectly well know, both the content of their hate-based DVD and their sneaky distribution methods were designedly calculated to target Latter-day Saints directly.

As you perfectly well know, their hate-based DVD does not share a message of why we can have a better shot at salvation by embracing their understanding of the gospel. As you perfectly well know, it consists of hate propaganda against The Church of Jesus Christ in general, and Joseph the Prophet in particular.

Therefore, your claim that their proselyting methods and ours are functionally indistinguishable is one that will not withstand even a moment's scrutiny.

FYI, the JW's came to my door a few months back. I'm sure they have come to the doors of many MA&DB participants during the lifetime of this forum, and yet how many threads have you seen deploring that fact?

I'll give you a hint: it's a nice round number. As in a big, fat 0.

For the very simple reason that there really is a meaningful parallel between their techniques and ours.

We do not lower ourselves to the kind of parasitic proselyting used by Concerned Pseudochristians and their ilk. Such techniques are so far beneath us as to be out of sight, and the only truly offensive assertions in this thread are where you and others try to suggest otherwise, contrary to all the facts.

IMO the act of claiming absolute truth is potentially dangerous and will draw people away from Christ.Thats why neither is wrong or right.

Is that an absolute truth?

As for Motivation, and Validity I would say they are the same.

And you would say wrong.

As for methods I think they are similar, but yes different.

And the similarities are slight and superficial, while the differences are significant and profound.

But since your faith claims absolute truth it has no need to point out flaws or "tear down" that is conveniant for your side @ least. But claiming absolute truth is the cause for the "anti" sentiment anyway, so again round the tree we go.

Thank you for admitting that they are motivated by resentment.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

I have absolutely no interest in impressing you, P.

I know you don't, CK.

As a professional anti-Mormon, you're not really engaged in trying to reach lost Mormon souls (like mine) at all; you're really engaged in Protestant boundary maintenance. Going through the motions of an occasional "outreach to Mormons" is just part of your "cover," and a necessary part of your fund-raising strategy.

I'm defending the idea that DVDs espousing radically contrary views anent LDS truth claims can be produced and not be legitimately counted as hate speech.

In the which you may be right, but it's not obvious to me that that's the reason the hate-based DVD under discussion has been correctly pegged.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Sentinus]

No, no, no, no and no.

Do you really not get it, Sentinus?

You seem to imagine to yourself that their techniques and ours, their goals and ours, are functionally indistinguishable. You seem to think that we only have a beef with them because we are on the receiving end, and that their beef with us has exactly the same level of legitimacy.

If you truly believe this--and it would take a prodigious, if not heroic, effort of misunderstanding to do so--then you really do not get it.

If Concerned Pseudochristians were to come to the doors of all those in their area of work who are not known to be members of Concerned Pseudochristians, and proceeded to share a message of why we can have a better shot at salvation by embracing their understanding of the gospel, these threads would not be happening. Such an approach would be genuinely parallel to what our missionaries do, and as such would not be "offensive" to any non-bigot.

But, as you perfectly well know, that is not what they did.

As you perfectly well know, their approach was not parallel to what our missionaries do.

As you perfectly well know, both the content of their hate-based DVD and their sneaky distribution methods were designedly calculated to target Latter-day Saints directly.

As you perfectly well know, their hate-based DVD does not share a message of why we can have a better shot at salvation by embracing their understanding of the gospel. As you perfectly well know, it consists of hate propaganda against The Church of Jesus Christ in general, and Joseph the Prophet in particular.

Therefore, your claim that their proselyting methods and ours are functionally indistinguishable is one that will not withstand even a moment's scrutiny.

FYI, the JW's came to my door a few months back. I'm sure they have come to the doors of many MA&DB participants during the lifetime of this forum, and yet how many threads have you seen deploring that fact?

I'll give you a hint: it's a nice round number. As in a big, fat 0.

For the very simple reason that there really is a meaningful parallel between their techniques and ours.

We do not lower ourselves to the kind of parasitic proselyting used by Concerned Pseudochristians and their ilk. Such techniques are so far beneath us as to be out of sight, and the only truly offensive assertions in this thread are where you and others try to suggest otherwise, contrary to all the facts.

Is that an absolute truth?

And you would say wrong.

And the similarities are slight and superficial, while the differences are significant and profound.

Thank you for admitting that they are motivated by resentment.

Regards,

Pahoran

While you have an opinion which is no more or less valid than mine, it seems you are right about one thing. I Just don't get it, AGREED, nor do you or others on this thread understand how others simply just don't get any of this, and why it is a problem. And it is clear that you and others simply just don't get where I am coming from. I can appreciate your position but cannot see how any of the points you have made are more or less valid than mine. (Being opinions and all)

Parsitic, Pseudochristians, ilk, sounds no better then they are IMO, why stoop to their level? This may also be a source of resentment, not sure though. How does this strengthen your position?

Is the Lds church "the one true church" or not? It seems that to me that by reverting to saying bring your truths and we will add to it, means that your beliefs are beyond being added to, asking people to bring their "truths" means that you already have all of theirs but your faith has more. How does this make it better? if so then that claim causes people to either -

A. Investigate and agree OR

B. Investigate and disagree, if they have great disagreement they may feel the "need" to warn others, as it is what they perceive is their "responsibility", Then it stands to reason that they would have to somehow convey why, and of course since you think its "true" you will automatically disagree.

When was the last time a protestant minister was involved in making change in the LDS doctrine or belief structure? No what it means is, You have some truth and we have the rest so indirectly they are wrong, if you can't understand why that is offensive, we are simply just going around the tree, that is not my intent here just to put out there different opinions so all can benefit. I am not trying to change anyones mind, just add to the conversation so all can learn, sorry if I am wasting your time, this also is not my intent.

Thank you for sharing your opinion, it has helped me understand another individual LDS position on a very much debated topic.

Kindly,

Sentinus

[Sentinus]

Absolute truth? I was unaware that we claimed that we had absolute truth. Do you have a reference, or is it something that has kindly been provided by someone outside the Church? Simply having strong beliefs or stating that the doctrines we have are true is a long way from absolute truth, which when I last looked, only God Himself has.

You continue to miss our point about the motivations of anti-Mormons. We see no evidence that it generally done out of love. Indeed, my personal, face to face experience with most critics of the Church (and NOT those who simply believe differently than we do) is that they harbor a significant amount of animosity towards me and the Church.

And we will continue to go around the tree. Enough examples have been given of anti-Mormon activity and how it differs from the preaching of the restored gospel. Your attempt to rephrase my statements away from Christ, and to equivocate on whether I have a relationship with Christ (first you say I do, then later I only believe) are both enlightening about how you view Latter-day Saints deep down inside.

One of the great flaws of anti-Mormon thinking is the perpetuation of the LDS Church as black and white in its declaration of "absolute truth" as you mistakenly phrase it. Whereas we ask others to come and bring the truth (even in Christ!) that they already have, our loving anti-Mormon friends reciprocate in no such way. You must renounce the evil falseness of your Mormon faith, or you will go to hell. Period.

The attacks anti-Mormons make against the Church are direct and identifiable as such. The attacks that you claim we make against others are indirect and related more towards doctrines others may not agree with. It's unfortunate you're having trouble seeing the difference.

First as stated once before I NEVER QUESTIONED your relationship with Christ! If you could be so kind to share with me exactly how I did this. (If you interpreted me as doing such I apologize but still would like an example) I hold that your relationship with him is very personal and do not question it. I don't know you so why would I assume such?

Why would "anti" Mormons reciprocate? They think you got it all messed up just like you believe they are missing truth. Now I would disagree with the idea that Mormons are going to hell Most members of the church live very good "Christian" lives, they just see things differently thats all. I was once LDS and my entire family is still "TBM" They and multiple other LDS have accused me of being apostate or that I was being led to hell by Satan himself to hell! Many LDS feel that way about people who leave the Church. I think personally NOONE has the truth including the LDS. I believe in one thing. Jesus Christ. I believe that all who believe in him will receive an EQUAL reward and that how you choose to follow him is your business. If the LDS lifestyle works for you GREAT! But it is no more authorative than any other religion in my book. I think the "antis" can do as they see fit and the LDS should just let it go, turn the other cheek, etc. And I also think that the "anti" should do likewise, but we are not talking about that, we are talking about peoples rights and there abilty to perform "missionary" work in whatever way they feel "led" to do it. You have no more right then they do. If you choose to do things one way that is your choice, if they choose to act in another way so what. If you don't like it then don't "join" with them. But to claim that your way is better, is ONLY an opinion as is theirs. That is my point, plain and simple, agree or not.

I would rather be attacked DIRECTLY than INDIRECTLY but thats just me.

Regards,

Sentinus

[cksalmon]

As a professional anti-Mormon, you're not really engaged in trying to reach lost Mormon souls (like mine) at all; you're really engaged in Protestant boundary maintenance. Going through the motions of an occasional "outreach to Mormons" is just part of your "cover," and a necessary part of your fund-raising strategy.

I'm not going to spar with you, Pahoran. Enjoy yourself.

[oats]

Ask the Church members in the Santee and El Cajon areas of San Diego the great love Christians have for the LDS!

Under the great leadership of the one and only Bill McKeever, the Shadown Mountain Ministries, and other great Christian examples of affection towards Mormonism, the population shows an unequalled affection towards the Mormon people and Mormon missionaries.

Yes, truly their anti-Mormon ministries are of goodwill and cheer. The fruits of their teachings are plainly manifest in their flock and their cities. You see, it seems that their preaching, and the goodwill that accompanies it, incites some mean streak towards Mormons. I assume that the verbal attacks, the endless downgrading of Mormons, spreading of false teachings about Mormon beliefs, attacks on missionaries etc are all products of this love towards Mormons as taught in the anti-Mormon schools of Christendom in El Cajon and Santee!

Now obviously they aren't lunatics on witchhunts for Mormons, and the sarcism above doesn't depict the most accurate picture. However, I noticed that the way the people of those cities treated Mormons (and the way it makes Mormons feel) is far from love. It seemed to stem mostly from the anti-Mormon classes offered by the Christian schools. So what causes the goodwill of anti-Mormon ministries to turn into what Mormons feel are aggressive, unloving behaviours?

[jwhitlock]

First as stated once before I NEVER QUESTIONED your relationship with Christ! If you could be so kind to share with me exactly how I did this. (If you interpreted me as doing such I apologize but still would like an example) I hold that your relationship with him is very personal and do not question it. I don't know you so why would I assume such?

Glad you were able to clarify that. It was unclear in your previous statement.

Why would "anti" Mormons reciprocate? They think you got it all messed up just like you believe they are missing truth.

That's the point. They don't do the same thing we do.

Now I would disagree with the idea that Mormons are going to hell Most members of the church live very good "Christian" lives, they just see things differently thats all.

Thanks for clarifying that. Most anti-Mormons would disagree with you.

I was once LDS and my entire family is still "TBM" They and multiple other LDS have accused me of being apostate or that I was being led to hell by Satan himself to hell! Many LDS feel that way about people who leave the Church. I think personally NOONE has the truth including the LDS.

Sorry to hear your family thinks of you that way. It's not my experience with LDS attitudes as I know them. No one has the truth, or no one has any truth? And are you retreating from your "absolute truth" accusations earlier?

I believe in one thing. Jesus Christ. I believe that all who believe in him will receive an EQUAL reward and that how you choose to follow him is your business. If the LDS lifestyle works for you GREAT! But it is no more authorative than any other religion in my book.

You certainly are allowed to constrain your beliefs, according to your book. I see no evidence of your statement above in real life, however.

I think the "antis" can do as they see fit and the LDS should just let it go, turn the other cheek, etc. And I also think that the "anti" should do likewise, but we are not talking about that, we are talking about peoples rights and there abilty to perform "missionary" work in whatever way they feel "led" to do it.

They certainly can do as they see fit, and no, I should not let it go. You did read the story I related above, I assume. Again, I see no evidence in real life that letting bullies push you around makes things easier in the long run.

You have no more right then they do. If you choose to do things one way that is your choice, if they choose to act in another way so what. If you don't like it then don't "join" with them. But to claim that your way is better, is ONLY an opinion as is theirs. That is my point, plain and simple, agree or not.

LDS belief is "Only An Opinion". Nice way of reducing the power of the restored gospel to fiction without addressing the reality of what we know and have experienced. I'm afraid it's far more complex than that.

I would rather be attacked DIRECTLY than INDIRECTLY but thats just me.

I'm really not sure how to take this...

[Sentinus]

Glad you were able to clarify that. It was unclear in your previous statement.

That's the point. They don't do the same thing we do.

Thanks for clarifying that. Most anti-Mormons would disagree with you.

Sorry to hear your family thinks of you that way. It's not my experience with LDS attitudes as I know them. No one has the truth, or no one has any truth? And are you retreating from your "absolute truth" accusations earlier?

You certainly are allowed to constrain your beliefs, according to your book. I see no evidence of your statement above in real life, however.

They certainly can do as they see fit, and no, I should not let it go. You did read the story I related above, I assume. Again, I see no evidence in real life that letting bullies push you around makes things easier in the long run.

LDS belief is "Only An Opinion". Nice way of reducing the power of the restored gospel to fiction without addressing the reality of what we know and have experienced. I'm afraid it's far more complex than that.

I'm really not sure how to take this...

Only one point regarding your post. In no way does my belief that NOONE has the truth undermine my problem with the LDS church claiming to be "the ONE TRUE CHURCH". You are right though in basically the rest of your post. I see nothing wrong with it except maybe some of what I think you MAY be implying so I will leave it alone. Thank you for your time and input.

Being bullied by the way is more of a reaction than action,IMO. It is entirely possible that many think that the LDS claims are "bullying" (Is that spelled right? O well) their faith and undermine the authenticity of their beliefs. I am not saying one way or the other just offering differing opinions.

As for how to take the last statement, can you physically prove that your faith is true or do you base it solely on your own personal witness? When you can PROVE it then let us all know, then their will be no need for this forum or "anti's" for that matter. You would do a great deal of good to do so. By the way it wasn't meant to undermine as much as to show that again there are two sides and neither can prove either way.

Regards,

Sentinus

[jwhitlock]

As for how to take the last statement, can you physically prove that your faith is true or do you base it solely on your own personal witness? When you can PROVE it then let us all know, then their will be no need for this forum or "anti's" for that matter. You would do a great deal of good to do so. By the way it wasn't meant to undermine as much as to show that again there are two sides and neither can prove either way.

I haven't found anything yet that can be proven to everyone's satisfaction - no matter how strong the evidence. That's why we still have, for instance, a Flat Earth Society.

It doesn't mean that it can't be proven - it just means that there are people who will never accept it as proof, no matter what evidence is presented.

The truth of the principles of the restored gospel has been proven to me beyond doubt, through the multiple evidences of scriptural study and the study of other beliefs, observation of what is around me, the testimony of others (including prophets), and the personal experiences and witnesses of the Spirit, which tie everything together.

The experiences and witnesses are very personal and meant for me. Each individual is entitled to his/her own witness, because we can not ultimately lean on the witness of another forever. The reality of those witnesses is very, very real to me. Anti-Mormons attack the reality of my experience and witness - they have no equivalent witness that what I say is false, in the sense that I have a witness. And so they attack something that they cannot and will not understand, and the attacks are based on their very faulty understandings of what I have experienced.

I certainly can discuss any aspect of the above in more detail, should there be any interest in doing so.

[Hammer]

Only one point regarding your post. In no way does my belief that NOONE has the truth undermine my problem with the LDS church claiming to be "the ONE TRUE CHURCH". You are right though in basically the rest of your post. I see nothing wrong with it except maybe some of what I think you MAY be implying so I will leave it alone. Thank you for your time and input.

Being bullied by the way is more of a reaction than action,IMO. It is entirely possible that many think that the LDS claims are "bullying" (Is that spelled right? O well) their faith and undermine the authenticity of their beliefs. I am not saying one way or the other just offering differing opinions.

As for how to take the last statement, can you physically prove that your faith is true or do you base it solely on your own personal witness? When you can PROVE it then let us all know, then their will be no need for this forum or "anti's" for that matter. You would do a great deal of good to do so. By the way it wasn't meant to undermine as much as to show that again there are two sides and neither can prove either way.

Regards,

Sentinus

Differing opinions is the way the world would look at this. But from God's perspective, HIS WAY isn't an opinion, but an absolute WAY.

Do you believe that God has the right to have HIS ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH on earth?

If you say yes, then you have to ask why the statement from members that the LDS church is HIS one and only true church, should bother you.

If you say no, then what priveledges do you give God, and who are you to limit God?

[Catholic Girl]

When I saw the letter to the distributors of this DVD:

PLEASE COPY THIS LETTER AND HAND IT OUT WITH EACH SAMPLE DVD

Dear Fellow Christian,

Enclosed is the sample copy of the brand new Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith DVD.

CAUTION: This video is to be viewed by CHRISTIANS ONLY until AFTER the nation-wide distribution which is scheduled for March 25, 2007. In-other-words, do not allow any Mormon people to view the video or learn of our intended evangelistic outreach until after March 25, 2007.

Why such extreme caution? If the leadership of the Mormon cult learns of our plans, they will publicly instruct their people not to watch the video and many Mormons will blindly obey.

ABOUT THE NATION-WIDE DISTRIBUTION AND EVANGELISTIC OUTREACH:

All that is required - HANGING THE DVD ON DOOR KNOBS THE VIDEO DOES THE TALKING and, in fact, we do not advise or encourage interaction with Mormon people until sometime after the distribution is complete.

The reason for this approach is because the Mormon Church instructs its members to not receive any materials which are not "faith promoting" in regard to Mormonism. By simply hanging the DVD on doors, Mormon people do not have the option of refusing to accept it. After the DVD is in their home many will, out of curiosity, watch it.

We encourage distribution of DVDs in neighborhoods surrounding LDS churches and/or Temples. Consider the following facts gleaned from previous similar distributions:

FOR MORMONS - The DVD will be instrumental in leading them out of Mormonism and into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

FOR NON-MORMONS - The DVD exposes the false teachings of the Mormon cult. As a result, people who view the video are much less likely to be converted to Mormonism and these people often use the information found in the DVD to challenge their LDS neighbors and/or LDS missionaries.

THIS OPPORTUNITY IS TRULY A GOD SEND - God has led the producer of this video to freely give the DVD to Utah ministries (a gift exceeding a quarter of a million dollars). The producer has also offered this DVD at the production cost of .50 each to any Christian ministry outside of the state of Utah who will agree to participate in the NATION-WIDE distribution on March 25, 2007.

FOR YOUR INFORMATION:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormonism, is one of the largest, most powerful, and fastest growing cults in the world today.

Most people have been deceived into thinking that Mormonism is just another Christian religion. Most LDS converts are proselytized from Christian denominations.

Within the state of Utah, the number of Mormons has steadily declined over the past 10 years which teaches us three things:

1 - Within Utah, we are doing a fairly good job of combating Mormonism;

2 - The growth of Mormonism is outside of the state of Utah which makes this NATION-WIDE distribution essentially important.

3 - The Mormon Church is vulnerable. We firmly believe that with enough exposure, Mormonism will crumble and become a shadow of what it is today.

Please join us in our efforts to shut down the Mormon machine and lead a multitude of lost souls out of this cult and into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We believe that meditation upon JOHN chapter 15 (the entire chapter) will encourage you and answer your questions as to whether you should participate. WE CANNOT DO THIS WITHOUT YOUR HELP, PLEASE HELP US.

For more information or to order quantities of DVDs contact Chip Thompson at:

E-mail: ephchip@gmail.com Phone: Office â??

435-283-0178 or Cell â?? 435-851-4588

They lost any credible claim that their motive was "love". If this letter had been written diplomatically with thought and without the inflammatory word "cult", I could be more convinced that this group truly meant to "help" LDS.

I think that it is perfectly clear from this shockingly irresponsible letter that "help" and "love" are easily argueably absent in this project. I certainly think many of the people involved with this project DID have "love" in mind. It only took this one idiotic person that wrote this letter to ruin their entire program (before it even got started for those non-LDS like myself), so to speak .

I was very disgusted to read this letter and frankly, quite embarrassed for them. I still have yet to watch this DVD.

[Hammer]

I was very disgusted to read this letter and frankly, quite embarrassed for them.

What they have done is PROVE they are lying when they say it was out of love. So how does one who have PROVEN themselves to be a lier, have any credibility in their claims against JS as a lier?

Interesting.

[cksalmon]

It only took this one idiotic person that wrote this letter to ruin their entire program (before it even got started for those non-LDS like myself), so to speak .

I was very disgusted to read this letter and frankly, quite embarrassed for them. I still have yet to watch this DVD.

Hi CG--

Well, watch the video, I'd suggest. And, then, comment about it. And then comment about Bill's letter in response to the LDS response to it.

Bill's no "idiot," CG. I suppose the letter, in and of itself, was reason enough for you to conclude such...? Good for you, I guess.

You're, perhaps, incredibly perceptive. You don't even need to watch the video itself to comment definitively about a letter written in response to the LDS response about the video itself.

Good for you? I think.

Best.

CKS

[ed2276]

They didn't want incidents of conflict between LDS people and the persons delivering the film. So instructing their people not to talk with LDS was probably a decently intended move on their part. I am willing to give persons who are Anti-Restoration the benifit of the doubt whenever I can.

The producers of the DVD might be wise not to come on the board. The hostility the DVD evoked in LDS has made a lot of enemies towards them.

Oh come on now , Dale. What did they have to fear? It's not like we have an army of little old LDS ladies in electric wheelchairs lined up to run them over.