More DVD Fun!

[Dale]

I have read Bill Mckeever for years, and never felt he loved Mormons. What's the proof he loves Mormons? Where is the love to be found on the MRM website? If somebody can prove he loves Mormons then I need to see the proof. I don't know him, but only see him writing Anti-Mormon things. Where are all his pro-love for Mormon writings?

Perhaps those ministries, and persons involved in the film need to not do such DVD giveaways in the future. If they loved Mormons then they would respect the feelings of LDS that they feel hated when such DVD's are left on , or in front of their doors. MRM no doubt took a public relations hit, so had to beat off the well deserved abuse they got.

I am awaiting to see if MRM, or another ministry responds to the FAIR response to the film. They have to be fuming at this point.

[JDErickson]

They did it in the 1800's. Robbing, beating, raping, murdering...

And today? Do you honestly think the ADL description is accurate?

[Log]

And today? Do you honestly think the ADL description is accurate?

I haven't seen the DVD, so I can't say. I cannot imagine why the ADL would lie about the content, though. If the accusation were false, it would tend to diminish the ADL's standing in the world, no? But Christian groups have, in the past, seen nothing wrong with lying for the Lord to convert the heathen....

[cksalmon]

I have read Bill Mckeever for years, and never felt he loved Mormons. What's the proof he loves Mormons? Where is the love to be found on the MRM website? If somebody can prove he loves Mormons then I need to see the proof. I don't know him, but only see him writing Anti-Mormon things. Where are all his pro-love for Mormon writings?

Perhaps those ministries, and persons involved in the film need to not do such DVD giveaways in the future. If they loved Mormons then they would respect the feelings of LDS that they feel hated when such DVD's are left on , or in front of their doors. MRM no doubt took a public relations hit, so had to beat off the well deserved abuse they got.

I am awaiting to see if MRM, or another ministry responds to the FAIR response to the film. They have to be fuming at this point.

Hi Dale--

As far as I know, Bill was not involved in the genesis or production of the DVD. I'm not sure why anyone would be fuming. A response was inevitable and only makes sense. There are deeply-held religious truth claims involved. If FAIR or some other pro-LDS organization hadn't issued a rebuttal, I'd think that would be weird.

Best.

CKS

[JDErickson]

I haven't seen the DVD, so I can't say. I cannot imagine why the ADL would lie about the content, though. If the accusation were false, it would tend to diminish the ADL's standing in the world, no? But Christian groups have, in the past, seen nothing wrong with lying for the Lord to convert the heathen....

Then I urge you to watch it and see how the ADL portrayal of it in the radio interview was flat wrong.

[Dale]

The film distribution was a peaceful activity. Comparing the activity than burning crosses, or making Swastika's is a bit much. I don't feel comfortable to comparing activities of one hated group with another. I don't see pure love for Mormons, or Mormonism as being behind the film distribution. Love might be there, but it was love mixed with hatred of everything Mormon. Vitrolic love is not the kind of love LDS should want.

They kindly sent me a copy of the book, and film. I got both items today. I will e-mail the person at the ministry that sent me the book a kind "Thank You."

Bill McKeever is on the board of directors for Tri-Grace Ministries. Tri-Grace Ministries had a major role this film project. I did some research on the Tri-Grace website on this. His name is clearly connected with that ministry. Bill is on the Advisory board as is someone with Concerned Christians. http://www.trigrace.org/

[Obiwan]

So "anti-Mormon's" are now lynching Mormons and sending them to concentration camps where they are starved and then gassed to death?

Please pray tell when did those things become the only examples of hate?

[Obiwan]

Then I urge you to watch it and see how the ADL portrayal of it in the radio interview was flat wrong.

Most of us have watched it, and the ADL portrayal, while sensational, IS most certainly accurate.

What is "flat wrong" is Christians bearing false witness and portraying such as "truth" and "love". Or is it okay to "lie for souls"?

[JDErickson]

Please pray tell when did those things become the only examples of hate?

Where did I say they were? There are lots of different kinds of hate. The worst kind (Nazi's and KKK) were compared to the DVD. That is wrong.

I hate brussel sprouts (1 type of hate)

I hate Mormon doctrines (another kind)

I hate Mormons (another kind)

Let's hang Mormons (The worst kind)

Where would you place the DVD in this list?

[cksalmon]

Most of us have watched it, and the ADL portrayal, while sensational, IS most certainly accurate.

What is "flat wrong" is Christians bearing false witness and portraying such as "truth" and "love". Or is it okay to "lie for souls"?

Hi Obiwan--

Do you agree that the video contained hate speech? Could you point to an example? I realize that you disagree with the motivation of the producers/distributors, but where is the hate speech? If you mean merely that LDS were misrepresented, perhaps you could point out an example of such? They may well have been, but I'm curious as to your confidence that the DVD contains hate speech. Rather than merely bandy about the accusation, I'm curious to see an example.

Best to you.

CKS

[JDErickson]

The film distribution was a peaceful activity. Comparing the activity than burning crosses, or making Swastika's is a bit much. I don't feel comfortable to comparing activities of one hated group with another. I don't see pure love for Mormons, or Mormonism as being behind the film distribution. Love might be there, but it was love mixed with hatred of everything Mormon. Vitrolic love is not the kind of love LDS should want.

They kindly sent me a copy of the book, and film. I got both items today. I will e-mail the person at the ministry that sent me the book a kind "Thank You."

I agree with you Dale. I personally think the DVD was the wrong way to approach the situation and probably created more problems than solutions. It wasn't hate as the ADL interview alluded to though.

[cksalmon]

Bill McKeever is on the board of directors for Tri-Grace Ministries. Tri-Grace Ministries had a major role this film project. I did some research on the Tri-Grace website on this. His name is clearly connected with that ministry. Bill is on the Advisory board as is someone with Concerned Christians. http://www.trigrace.org/

Hi Dale--

I apparently stand corrected.

Best.

CKS

[Log]

Then I urge you to watch it and see how the ADL portrayal of it in the radio interview was flat wrong.

What little I have seen of the DVD thus far on YouTube confirms this is anti-Mormon propaganda.

This is what I'm familiar with out of the ADL on the topic:

Phoenix, AZ, March 27, 2007......The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) condemned the distribution of an anti-Mormon DVD by the organization Concerned Christians as nothing more than "Mormon-bashing."

Bill Straus, ADL Arizona Regional Director, observed: "This is the same kind of plain, old-fashioned Mormon-bashing that Jim Robertson and his group have been spewing for over a quarter-of-a-century. The only difference is that back then, it was the film, 'The God Makers,' and today it's the DVD, 'Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith.' It was wrong then, and it's wrong now."

ADL Regional Board Chair David Bodney added, "Hate directed at any of us is hate directed at all of us. From whomever that hate comes, and to whomever it's directed, ADL takes it very seriously and will continue to speak out against it."

The ADL's characterization of the DVD appears accurate.

[Obiwan]

Where did I say they were? There are lots of different kinds of hate. The worst kind (Nazi's and KKK) were compared to the DVD. That is wrong.

I hate brussel sprouts (1 type of hate)

I hate Mormon doctrines (another kind)

I hate Mormons (another kind)

Let's hang Mormons (The worst kind)

Where would you place the DVD in this list?

Would you classify the hateful words and bearing false witness of Jews and blacks by the KKK and White Supremacists as major bad "hate speech", or just a "kind" of hate?

The DVD is among the major bad hate speech, for the claims and statements it makes. It is not just a kind.

Yes, I know there wasn't the "vitriol" in the DVD that you see from the above kinds of people, but hate is still hate, no matter how "kind" or "loving" it goes about it. In fact, in history, some of the most sick haters and murderers have been those who acted like they were your most kindly best friend, treating you so good, while they lead you to the gas chamber (as an example).

[Dale]

Some of the ADL sensationalism should not be defended. Certainly peacefully leaving a DVD is not engaging in any criminal act. It might be an act they should be embarrassed for, but nothing they did was illegal as far as I can tell.

[Obiwan]

Some of the ADL sensationalism should not be defended. Certainly peacefully leaving a DVD is not engaging in any criminal act. It might be an act they should be embarrassed for, but nothing they did was illegal as far as I can tell.

While this may be approaching apples and oranges, some might say that placing a chicken with it's head cut off and a cross stuck in it on a christians lawn might be hate, and is a perfectly peaceful action.

Frankly, at it's core, I don't see why people don't get that bearing false witness of others and promoting it publicly can't be considered "hate speech"? And, really, ignorance isn't bliss. The clansman is certainly ignorant, but that doesn't excuse his corrupt beliefs of others. Does it?

[cksalmon]

What little I have seen of the DVD thus far on YouTube confirms this is anti-Mormon propaganda.

This is what I'm familiar with out of the ADL on the topic:

The ADL's characterization of the DVD appears accurate.

Does anti-Mormon "propaganda" equate to hate speech? What claims on the DVD are inaccurate? I know you haven't viewed it in its entirety, but you've viewed some of it. What claims did you notice were false?

Best.

CKS

While this may be approaching apples and oranges, some might say that placing a chicken with it's head cut off and a cross stuck in it on a christians lawn might be hate.

Frankly, at it's core, I don't see why people don't get that bearing false witness of others and promoting it publicly can't be considered "hate speech"? And, really, ignorance isn't bliss. The clansman is certainly ignorant, but that doesn't excuse his corrupt beliefs of others. Does it?

What claims were false, Obiwan?

Best.

CKS

[Pahoran]

Where did I say they were? There are lots of different kinds of hate. The worst kind (Nazi's and KKK) were compared to the DVD. That is wrong.

I hate brussel sprouts (1 type of hate)

I hate Mormon doctrines (another kind)

I hate Mormons (another kind)

Let's hang Mormons (The worst kind)

Where would you place the DVD in this list?

Well, since it was you who decided to drag the Nazis into this discussion...

May I point out that the Nazis didn't start out by building concentration camps and gassing people? That was the end of the process. It began with offensive jokes, exaggerated caricatures and whispered conspiracy stories.

The very sorts of things for which various groups of so-called "Christians" imagine the Latter-day Saints to be fair game.

Throughout the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance, every Italian city had a ghetto. This wasn't a neighbourhood consisting of brownstone houses where you could see black kids listening to boom boxes, but a walled-off quarter where the Jews were required to live.

Near the gate of each ghetto was a special house. It was required by law to be built and maintained by the inmates of the ghetto, for the purpose of housing catechumens--i.e. people studying Christianity to prepare for baptism. Specifically, catechumens from the ghetto. Upon baptism, the catechumens were entitled to leave the ghetto and live as citizens with actual rights. If a rabbi tried to enter this house, for the purpose of talking to any of his flock who were there, he would get a beating.

I have no doubt that, had it ever occurred to those responsible for teaching catechumens in these houses to explain them in terms of "loving Jews," they could easily have done so, on the same rationale that anti-Mormons use. I'm not sure that they were ever down to that level of hypocrisy, though; but in any case, historians know how much "love" those houses represent: they describe them as a manifestation of "anti-Semitism."

How could this possibly be fair? After all, those guys didn't build any gas chambers, did they?

No, they didn't. Just like the producers and distributors of the DVD in question did not.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Obiwan]

There's several such responses out there for you to read. Why do you want me to do your work for you?

[Log]

Does anti-Mormon "propaganda" equate to hate speech? What claims on the DVD are inaccurate? I know you haven't viewed it in its entirety, but you've viewed some of it. What claims did you notice were false?

Best.

CKS

The claims about Joseph's motivations were false, the claims about the origins of the temple ceremony were false, and the presentation of the ceremonies themselves can be seen as deeply offensive to LDS; the conspicuous inverted pentagram with flames was certainly egregious, as was the word "Occult" overshadowing the rather strained discussion about the Jupiter talisman that Joseph supposedly had in his pocket when he was killed, which itself seems to be a false claim also - http://www.angelfire.com/sk2/ldsdefense/talis.html

I wonder how many "false" claims there were in Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda, and do people feel it reasonable to ask that question of a Jew?

[cksalmon]

There's several such responses out there for you to read. Why do you want me to do your work for you?

Hi Obiwan--

I don't expect you to do my work for me. I would just like to know if you personally can get behind a specific example of "bearing false witness" in the DVD. I've seen the DVD. I've read the rebuttals. I'm wondering, specifically, what you consider to be false in the DVD. Surely, there is something, as you've stated that the DVD bears false witness. And it may well do. So, specifically, where do you feel that it went astray? I'm assuming you must have had a specific example in mind when you stated such. I didn't make the DVD. I was in no way involved. But, I would like to know what you consider to be false, as you've made the declaration that false witness was borne. I don't want to bear false witness, personally. Perhaps, we can come to some sort of agreement about what is false and what is not, so that I, personally, as a resident "anti-Mormon" don't cross that line with you or others.

Best.

CKS

[cksalmon]

Well, since it was you who decided to drag the Nazis into this discussion...

As near as I can tell, JDErickson was referring to ADL's useful cataloging of anti-Semitic speech; it was exemplary not comparative. You, however, have gone ahead and compared, implicitly, the DVD producers to Nazis. If that's not an instance of violating Godwin's law, I don't know what is.

Best.

CKS

[cksalmon]

The claims about Joseph's motivations were false, the claims about the origins of the temple ceremony were false, and the presentation of the ceremonies themselves can be seen as deeply offensive to LDS; the conspicuous inverted pentagram with flames was certainly egregious, as was the word "Occult" overshadowing the rather strained discussion about the Jupiter talisman that Joseph supposedly had in his pocket when he was killed, which itself seems to be a false claim also - http://www.angelfire.com/sk2/ldsdefense/talis.html

I wonder how many "false" claims there were in Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda, and do people feel it reasonable to ask that question of a Jew?

Hey Lognormal--

Don't make me watch the video again. I am interested in following up on these issues with you. Can you tell me the sections involved?

(1) Joseph's motivations were false (about what?)

(2) Origin of the Temple ceremony was false (I can probably find that)

(3) Jupiter talisman presented as occult (I would actually agree with that assessment, if true)

(4) JS possessed Jupiter talisman on his person at the time of his murder (I don't think this can be settled by the DVD, but it is worth looking into; why do you think this is a false claim; for others, why do you think this is a true claim? Sources?)

Best.

CKS

[aaronshaf]

The words of Mormon Eugene Woodbury:

â??At the core of Mormon doctrine are a host of non-negotiable claims: that not only do practically all other Christian sects adhere to an errant theology (the Nicene creed), but their priesthood authority is null and void in its entirety. None of their saving ordinances are efficacious, and none of them are recognized.

â??I donâ??t care how much frosting you coat it with, but thatâ??s a very bitter pill and Iâ??m frankly mystified why we expect that other Christian denominations should swallow it with a smile, without fighting back with all the resources at their disposal.

â??Similarly, to claim that our missionaries arenâ??t 'tearing down' other religions may be true in terms of process, but certainly not end result. The convert has to reject his current beliefs and his current loyalties and his current sacraments, no dual citizenship allowed. Why pretend thereâ??s anything nice about what weâ??re up to (Matthew 10:34)?

â??The Mormon church stands as an existential (albeit philosophical) threat to the broader (Nicene) Christian fellowship. We should stop being surprised that this raises some peopleâ??s hackles, or that they believe we are as wrong and misguided and apostate as we believe they are.

Quoted by John Dehlin. http://www.johndehlin.com/blog/?p=166

[charity]

I must be somewhat immune to the kinds of idiocy presented in the DVD. We've heard it all before. Why I think it represents "hate speech" is because the people who wrote the script had to know they were writing lies. The truth has been out there so long they had to know. Unless they have the IQ of persimmons. Maybe the talking heads just read the words without any of the meaning passing through their brains. And so they would be accountable only in the way a parrot would be for saying "Polly wants a cracker."

I think another demonstration of the "hate speech" idea was the hit and run ambush nature of it. Don't talk to people. Hang it on a door when you think they aren't there. These guys didn't love anyone. They thought they got stars in the their crowns for littering.