The Main Difference Between Mormonism And Trad. Christianity

[Lehi]

Six: I would be one of those who disagree with you. I think that the statement above distorts and over-simplifies LDS doctrine.

A more accurate statement would be:

"In Mormonism, DEEDS are as important as BELIEFS."

The concept in Mormonism is that you cannot have one without the other and be saved. Deeds without faith are dead. Belief without deeds is dead.

To say that deeds are required is not to say they outweigh beliefs.

Regards,

Six

Six you took the words right out of my mouth.

I have always seen it as a 50/50 proposition. God will meet you half-way, but you have to put your money where your mouth is. You can't just claim to be a charitable person, you have to BE a charitable person.

Jesus said "Seek and ye shall find, Ask and ye shall receive, Knock and it shall be opened up to you". In a sense (though not actually biblical) the Lord helps those who help themselves.

Besides, if works plays no part in God's Graces, then explain Revelations chapter 2.

Lehi

[dbschroeder]

In a nutshell it has always been the interpretation of "grace" between LDS and EVs.

That said, I think if EV's really understood God's grace they would understand there is a need for Joesph Smith,

dbs

[thesometimesaint]

Johnny:

Show me what you do, and I'll KNOW what you believe.

[johnny]

thesometimesaint,

>> Show me what you do, and I'll KNOW what you believe.

I am married ... what do you know about what I believe?

[thesometimesaint]

Johnny:

That you believe in marriage.

[flavo]

If someone where to ask me what the biggest difference between mormonism and traditional christianity is, what would it be?

It isn't the BoM. It isn't polygamy. It isn't the temple or the pluralty of gods. I think it is the role faith, grace and works play into salvation.

Nephi said, "It is by GRACE that we are saved after ALL WE CAN DO." Without Christ and His atonement all would be damned. But we get this grace after ALL WE CAN DO, not after ALL WE CAN BELIEVE. It makes no difference if you accept the gospel on your death bed. If you were sodomizing children or leaving pick axes in the chests of innocents, a death bed confession of Jesus or mormonism isn't going to do you any good.

I sure some will disagree, but in mormonism DEEDS outweigh BELIEFS.

In traditional christianty, BELIEFS outweigh DEEDS

when it comes to recieveing grace.

Some have said that we worship a different Jesus. This has some merit. The Jesus I follow does not save ax murderers who confess the night of their execution, while allowing a Rabbi who lived an honorable life, while teaching that Jesus was not the Messiah, spend the rest of eternity in a never ending holocaust.

Even the devils and demons believe. Are they saved? Faith without works is dead. That is the differance. Works without faith is dead. They both are as important as the other. You are right, I do disagree that DEEDS outweigh BELIEFS. Any who belive that are either on the outside looking in or are not completely understanding the Lords teaching on the matter.

[flavo]

Her Amun,

>> If someone where to ask me what the biggest difference between mormonism and traditional christianity is, what would it be?

For me a big diference is the Mormon teaching that "it is up to each of us to do our part and become worthy of exaltation."

For me everything is grace, it is God that works in us (Phil 2:13). God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes.

Phil.2

[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Philip. 2: 12

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If a fig tree does not put off any fruit, is it still a fig tree?

[johnny]

flavo,

>> If a fig tree does not put off any fruit, is it still a fig tree?

How is this fig tree working about its salvation?

[Bsix]

In an apparent attempt to quantify how DEEDS outweigh BELIEF in LDS theology, the following mathamatical analogy was offered for faith, repentence, baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost and endure to the end.

Acts, whether sacramental or ethical, outweight the theology by a ratio of 4 to 1.

I think this is a perfect example of how LDS theology is misunderstood and misrepresented.

1) faith -- Faith is not sommething that can exist by itself devoid of action. You have to do something to have faith. As such, a "deed" it is an exercise wherein we act to believe God, accept the Gospel, trust in the atonement, etc...

2)repentance -- True repentence is an act of belief. It is a belief in the reality of sin, a belief that we have sinned, a belief that we must repent, and a belief required to act in a way that we spiritually and physically change ourselves to remove the sin by means of the Savior's atonement. You cannot have repentance with out belief.

3)baptism -- Baptism is another act of belief. Baptism is a central part of being reborn. You can be baptised a thousand times and still not receive the blessings of baptism or really be a true Christian if you do not sincerely believe. Baptism is nothing without belief. To say that you must be baptised does not negate the belief required to make baptism efficacious toward salvation.

4)gift of Holy Ghost -- Again, this is a deed that is completely without merit or power without belief. If you can have the Holy Ghost bestowed. But without the proper and real belief, it will be nothing. Just like baptism, you could perform the ordinance a thousand times, but if you are not properly and humbly faithful, it is as if the gift was never given. To say that you receive the Holy Ghost does not negate the belief required to make it efficacious toward salvation.

5)Endure to the end -- I cannot think of anything that requires more genuine belief than enduring to the end. This is the greatest of all spiritual journeys. For faithful Christians, this is the walk with the Lord. Getting up each day and applying your beliefs in the real world. Becoming humble, resisting and overcoming our faults. Acting as a Christian toward others. Performing service. None of these count for anything toward our salvation if not done with true faith. To say that you must be endure does not negate the belief required to make enduring to the end efficacious toward salvation.

None of spiritual requirements listed above are authentic without equal parts of belief and deeds.

Regards,

Six

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

I sure some will disagree, but in mormonism DEEDS outweigh BELIEFS.

In traditional christianty, BELIEFS outweigh DEEDS

[...]

On another message board that I spent a short stint on, the LDS church was referred to as â??A Work Based Cult.â? Good times.

[consiglieri]

It was not so long ago that being considered a "good Christian" was a description of how one lived one's life; as opposed to simply being the acceptance of a certain set of theological propositions.

The criticism, "That's not very Christian of you," did not mean that one believed something wrong; but rather that one did something that was not very nice.

Just my two cents.

--Consiglieri

[StriplingWarrior]

I would disagree Her Amun, the main difference or that crucial point is did Joseph Smith see God the Father and Jesus Christ, and were they separate individual beings.

If this is the case, then the Book of Mormon was inspired and given to Joseph Smith to translate by His power.

It means doctrinal issues such as grace and works would be clearly interpreted by a prophet, assuming he was lead and guided by the Father and Son of whom he said he saw.

IF Joseph saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, then he was a Prophet authorized to interpret and share God's word.

IF Joseph was not a Prophet, then he did NOT see God the Father and Jesus Christ and was NOT authorized to interpret and share God's word.

Very simple.

How does one find that out? He reads and prays to know if the Book of Mormon is true for that is what Joseph Smith said and what the book says.

[flavo]

flavo,

>> If a fig tree does not put off any fruit, is it still a fig tree?

How is this fig tree working about its salvation?

Is every person who has answered the alter call and confessed and gave their lives to Christ and calls themselves a Christian, saved? Is every person that has followed this path and you see in church every Sunday sitting in the pews saved? Are they truely Christian?

Matt. 7: 16-20

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matt. 21: 19

19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Many times Jesus has said that he will harvest. What will he harvest, only those that have fruit. Those that do not produce fruit, will be cast into the fire. How does one produce fruit? When you plant a garden, how do you reap a harvest? By work, by the things you do to cultivate the fruit. Faith that the seed will grow is not enough. So it is with the kingdom of God. After all that a farmer may do to fertilize, to weed, to water and to give place for the seed to grow, it is only by the grace of the Almighty that the seed will grow into that which may bring forth fruit.

Acts 10

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Matthew 24

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Will works and works only save you? NO! Will faith and belief only save you? NO! Only a faith that leads you to good works will save you.

A fig tree that does not produce figs is not a fig tree and will be thrown into the fire.

Luke 9

45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

1 Corinthians 3 gives a great understanding of how works play into exaltation and how the resurrection is a gift to all through grace.

[Tsuzuki]

I sure some will disagree, but in mormonism DEEDS outweigh BELIEFS.

Beliefs as in faith, or beliefs as in creeds? As a paradigm pirate, I can tell you there's a difference. Creeds are detrimental, while faith is essential.

[thesometimesaint]

The main difference is we have the Authority of God, and no one else does.

[Olavarria]

Her Amun,

>> If someone where to ask me what the biggest difference between mormonism and traditional christianity is, what would it be?

For me a big diference is the Mormon teaching that "it is up to each of us to do our part and become worthy of exaltation."

For me everything is grace, it is God that works in us (Phil 2:13). God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes.

Phil.2

[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

A simple example should suffice:

Who gets to the CK?

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has givenâ??

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own eblood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical

Ok, so these people have faith(the belief whitch I dont deny is vital) but what? They are baptized and confirmed(acts of faith). But it is by keeping the commandments that they are washed by the atonement. In other words, the atonement only kicks in after they do the works. "Just men made perfect thru Jesus", none of us is perfect BUT we have to be just. These people who enter the CK are good people. They are not cheats, perverts, liars, or cruel. They overcome by faith, but they still have to overcome. Overcoming is an act; it requires action. The Holy Spirit of Promise is shed upon who? Those that are just and true. That implies action, not just having a testimnony, or accepting Jesus into your life.

Who goes to the Terrestrial

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

Ok, so these are people who rejected the truie gospel in this life, but accepted it in the next.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

Ok, they are good people who never accepted.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

Who are they? The Saints who recieved the Testimony of Jesus, but were not valiant. In other words, people who God deems to be bad mormons. Back to this later.

Who goes to the Telestial

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

What else?

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

Ok, the simplified version

Who goes to CK= Good mormons

Who goes to Teres= Bad mormons, good everyone else

Who goes to Teles= Bad everyone else

So you see, what keeps the the good non-mo from the Telestial is works, what keeps the bad mo from celestial is works. Faith+works gets you to the CK

or you can say:

Faith+works=CK

Good Works alone, faith with a lack of valiance =Terestrial

Adultery,lying, and all sorts of evil=Terrestrial

hmmmmmmm

Without Christ none of this would be possible.

Am I missing something?

I guess the only thing it proves is what Ive alaways said: where there are 3 mormons there are 5 opinions

I just hope no one thinks there place in the CK is a shoe in, unless of course they have good reason to believe otherwise.

[Bsix]

In other words, the atonement only kicks in after they do the works.

Six: Sigh...I think you are seeing only what you want to see. A more proper way of describing LDS theology is:

"The atonement only kicks in after they have faith and works."

Remember what the Bible teaches.

James 2:20-25 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Simply because God requires obidience or ordinance does not negate the faith involved in obeying the God's dictates.

It is not that Deeds are more important that Belief.

It is not that Beliefs are more important Deeds.

It is that Beliefs and Deeds work in equal parts.

Regards,

Six

[Olavarria]

Six: Sigh...I think you are seeing only what you want to see. A more proper way of describing LDS theology is:

"The atonement only kicks in after they have faith and works."

Remember what the Bible teaches.

Simply because God requires obidience or ordinance does not negate the faith involved in obeying the God's dictates.

It is not that Deeds are more important that Belief.

It is not that Beliefs are more important Deeds.

It is that Beliefs and Deeds work in equal parts.

Regards,

Six

So what is it that distinguishes the people in the Terrestrial from those in the Telestial?

The mo's in the Celestial from the Mo's in the Terrestrial or Telestial?

[StriplingWarrior]

A simple example should suffice:

Who gets to the CK?

Ok, so these people have faith(the belief whitch I dont deny is vital) but what? They are baptized and confirmed(acts of faith). But it is by keeping the commandments that they are washed by the atonement. In other words, the atonement only kicks in after they do the works. "Just men made perfect thru Jesus", none of us is perfect BUT we have to be just. These people who enter the CK are good people. They are not cheats, perverts, liars, or cruel. They overcome by faith, but they still have to overcome. Overcoming is an act; it requires action. The Holy Spirit of Promise is shed upon who? Those that are just and true. That implies action, not just having a testimnony, or accepting Jesus into your life.

Who goes to the Terrestrial

Ok, so these are people who rejected the truie gospel in this life, but accepted it in the next.

Ok, they are good people who never accepted.

Who are they? The Saints who recieved the Testimony of Jesus, but were not valiant. In other words, people who God deems to be bad mormons. Back to this later.

Who goes to the Telestial

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

What else?

Ok, the simplified version

Who goes to CK= Good mormons

Who goes to Teres= Bad mormons, good everyone else

Who goes to Teles= Bad everyone else

So you see, what keeps the the good non-mo from the Telestial is works, what keeps the bad mo from celestial is works. Faith+works gets you to the CK

or you can say:

Faith+works=CK

Good Works alone, faith with a lack of valiance =Terestrial

Adultery,lying, and all sorts of evil=Terrestrial

hmmmmmmm

Without Christ none of this would be possible.

Am I missing something?

I guess the only thing it proves is what Ive alaways said: where there are 3 mormons there are 5 opinions

I just hope no one thinks there place in the CK is a shoe in, unless of course they have good reason to believe otherwise.

If you have faith + works, then you go to the Celestial Kingdom

Contrapositive:

If you do NOT go to the Celestial Kingdom, you do not have faith + works

That's the simplified version. Fortunately because God loves us there are other degrees of glory for those who did not utilize faith and works properly or not at all.

These two principles are INSEPERABLE. You seem to want to define them as two things that can exist by themselves and only by themselves.

The Terrestial and Telestial are defined by the degree of which these two principles are abused, not because one was more than the other.

[Olavarria]

"The atonement only kicks in after they have faith and works."

When referring to the Ck, absolutly.

Simply because God requires obidience or ordinance does not negate the faith involved in obeying the God's dictates.

when did I say that?

[Olavarria]

If you have faith + works, then you go to the Celestial Kingdom

Contrapositive:

If you do NOT go to the Celestial Kingdom, you do not have faith + works

That's the simplified version. Fortunately because God loves us there are other degrees of glory for those who did not utilize faith and works properly or not at all.

These two principles are INSEPERABLE. You seem to want to define them as two things that can exist by themselves and only by themselves.

The Terrestial and Telestial are defined by the degree of which these two principles are abused, not because one was more than the other.

hmmmmm

What seperates the Mo's that enter the Ck from those that don't?

I think we need to define a few terms, as I am using them.

Belief=intellectual acceptance of a statement as true

Faith=belief in action

works=works

Mosiah4:30

30 But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not awatch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not.

1 John 3:7-10

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the ddevil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

John9:31

31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

[Tsuzuki]

Belief=intellectual acceptance of a statement as true

I agree that such is meaningless.

[Olavarria]

I agree that such is meaningless.

And that is all that I am saying. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Tsuzuki]

And that is all that I am saying. Nothing more and nothing less.

Hail Eris! All hail Discordia!

[Olavarria]

I guess some of the other opiners are right:

faith+works=entrance into the CK, kind like 2 blades on a scissor, which would mean my OP is wrong.