Phyllis Olive's Bom Geography

[Cold Steel]

I dropped by Phyllis Olive's site on Book of Mormon geography and read the following:

When one contemplates the current landscape of the regions around the Hill Cumorah, it become obvious why they have been overlooked so long in the on-going search for Book of Mormon territory. Although "the land of many waters" still graces the region, many of the ancient seas mentioned in the scriptures seem to be missing in the modern-day setting. Yet once we become aware of the great primeval forests and ancient waters that once filled the area, the picture changes dramatically, and all the missing pieces of the puzzle finally begin to fall into place. In fact, they fall into place so quickly and so easily that the territory of western and central New York may yet prove to be the long, lost lands of the Book of Mormon. Not only does the topography fit, but evidence of ancient civilizations exactly like those described in the scriptures show up in this very region, along with archaeological evidence that great numbers of them died around the Hill Cumorah. Mass graves of an ancient people, some of them 1/3 larger than those at present, have been found all across western and central New York, as have fortifications built exactly like those constructed in Moroniâ??s day.

I don't know what kind of a case she makes in her book, but her website doesn't sound convincing at all. I've understood that no evidence of great battles exists in the New York "Cumorah" region. Do I understand that she believes there is?

Has anyone read her book and does anyone here lean towards her ideas regarding BoM geography?

[Doctor Steuss]

I've never heard of her.

What's her website address?

[poulsenll]

I dropped by Phyllis Olive's site on Book of Mormon geography and read the following:

When one contemplates the current landscape of the regions around the Hill Cumorah, it become obvious why they have been overlooked so long in the on-going search for Book of Mormon territory. Although "the land of many waters" still graces the region, many of the ancient seas mentioned in the scriptures seem to be missing in the modern-day setting. Yet once we become aware of the great primeval forests and ancient waters that once filled the area, the picture changes dramatically, and all the missing pieces of the puzzle finally begin to fall into place. In fact, they fall into place so quickly and so easily that the territory of western and central New York may yet prove to be the long, lost lands of the Book of Mormon. Not only does the topography fit, but evidence of ancient civilizations exactly like those described in the scriptures show up in this very region, along with archaeological evidence that great numbers of them died around the Hill Cumorah. Mass graves of an ancient people, some of them 1/3 larger than those at present, have been found all across western and central New York, as have fortifications built exactly like those constructed in Moroniâ??s day.

I don't know what kind of a case she makes in her book, but her website doesn't sound convincing at all. I've understood that no evidence of great battles exists in the New York "Cumorah" region. Do I understand that she believes there is?

Has anyone read her book and does anyone here lean towards her ideas regarding BoM geography?

I have not bothered to read her book but her conclusions are so far out with little or no adherence to archealogical and anthrpological data for the area. She ignores the dates of the various cultures and postulates that what was present in prehistoric times was still present up till the time of Christs death and that the cataclismic events at that time changed everything to its present state. She totally ignores any scientific evidence or data about the region that contradict her theory.

Larry P

[jwhitlock]

The main emphasis seems to remain on Central America as the location for those events. There are a number of good articles on FairLDS, and also at meridianmagazine.com (search on 'geography') on the subject.

jwhitlock

[Fortigurn]

I've understood that no evidence of great battles exists in the New York "Cumorah" region.

Don't you mean 'No evidence has yet been found of great battles in the New York "Cumorah" region'? It's possible the evidence is waiting to be undiscovered.

[The Dude]

She ignores the dates of the various cultures and postulates that what was present in prehistoric times was still present up till the time of Christs death and that the cataclismic events at that time changed everything to its present state. She totally ignores any scientific evidence or data about the region that contradict her theory.

This summary reminds me of people who think god changed the Lamanites DNA to make it look Asian.

Who needs science if it looks this way because of a miracle?

[Dave Ellis]

She hasn't even managed to get the right continent... the Nephites and Lamanites lived in Australia! come on, America as the 'promised land'? Not very likely.

Don't believe me? Here's the proof:

We should be excavating in Western Australia. That's where the rest of the plates are buried

Regards,

Dave

[USU78]

Has anyone read her book and does anyone here lean towards her ideas regarding BoM geography?

I find her and my grandfathers' positions on this issue unpersuasive.

But in their prime I wouldn't have crossed them there doughboys.

USU "Klaatu barata nikto" 78

[Sethbag]

I noticed the little "received by personal revelation" bit at the bottom of that picture. Anyone want to comment on the ramifications? If you don't believe what she's said, then you must doubt her personal revelation, and the question is, what exactly did she experience that she interpreted as God revealing truth to her, and how was that false experience any different in how it was perceived by her to all the "true" revelations, like where God confirmed to her that the Book of Mormon was true in the first place?

This is an important topic. I've had members tell me they'd had things revealed to them that I know are simply not true, and from the descriptions, the experience of these revelations is indistinguishable from the ones that people in the church assume are true.

[thesometimesaint]

Sethbag:

The Church has a long and well established method of determining what the Church actually believes. NO Speculation as to the location of the main events described in the BoM has to date met those qualifications.

I personally believe that it took place in what we now call Mesoamerica. I think the evidence is pretty conclusive on this point. But if God though His appointed Apostles and Prophets, following those well established rules were to tell me differently, today. I'll go with that.

[Dave Ellis]

I noticed the little "received by personal revelation" bit at the bottom of that picture. Anyone want to comment on the ramifications?

Can you keep a secret? I didn't really have any revelation, I just wrote that at the bottom of the picture because none of the real Book of Mormon names sounded anything like 'Fremantle' and I didn't want to exclude them from my map. I mean, they have their own AFL team, they naturally ought to have a presence in scripture too. Don't tell anyone I said that though, I don't want to damage the credibility of my "Nephi Down-Under" model.

-Dave

[DonBradley]

Sethbag:

The Church has a long and well established method of determining what the Church actually believes. NO Speculation as to the location of the main events described in the BoM has to date met those qualifications.

Well, that's a good answer...to some question. However, Sethbag's question was about the implications of the fact that folks sometimes have false revelations as well as true ones. How can one claim infallible knowledge that the Book of Mormon is true by personal revelation when that same method at other times proves quite fallible? I think anyone who takes seriously the idea of guiding their life by personal revelation will have a record that includes misses as well as hits. What are the deeper implications of this? How certain is information obtained by this means?

These are not just questions a skeptic might use to challenge a saint; they are also questions to be wrestled by believers. Certainly they are questioned I wrestled when I was one.

Don

[Alan]

I have read one of her books and am somewhat persuaded to her view. I feel it is likely that many of the events we read of in the Book of Mormon took place in the northeastern US and possibly into Canada.

Alan

[Merry]

I feel it is probable that many of the events we read of in the Book of Mormon took place in the northeastern US and possibly into Canada.

http://www.bookofmormonlands.com/

I have not read her work. A Great Lakes/East Coast scenario can only have occurred in the time window of 980AD-1470AD. Possibly back to 600AD, but that is more speculative.

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga2/sagawt0J.htm

[thesometimesaint]

DonBradley:

I personally try very hard to live my life by personal revelation. But my own personal experience with it does not bind the Church to it in any way shape or form. The Church is a house of order, and we have the structure already in place to insure that it remains such.

As I said before Speculations about the location of BoM lands is fun, and entertaining. But it is just that Speculation.

[DonBradley]

DonBradley:

I personally try very hard to live my life by personal revelation. But my own personal experience with it does not bind the Church to it in any way shape or form. The Church is a house of order, and we have the structure already in place to insure that it remains such.

As I said before Speculations about the location of BoM lands is fun, and entertaining. But it is just that Speculation.

TSS,

I'll take this second dodge of the question as an indication that you don't want to engage the issue.

Don

[poulsenll]

TSS,

I'll take this second dodge of the question as an indication that you don't want to engage the issue.

Don

Don

We are taught that everyone is entitled to personal revelation but this revelation is limited to those things that are within the bounds of their current calling. Bishop's may recieve revelation pertaining to their ward but not pertaining to the Stake or the Church as a whole. The General Authorities have repeatedly stated that there is nor has been no revelation pertaining to the exact location of the BoM culture other than that it was somewhere on the American continents. For an idividual to claim to have recieved personal revelation to a topic where the leadership has said that no revelation is available is good reason in my mind to doubt the validity of their personal revelation and chalk it up to wishful thinking or at worst a desire to convince others that their conclusions have more validity than those proposed by others who admit that what they propose is speculative and their own interpretation of the available information.

A person's terstimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon falls within the bounds of those things which any person is entitled to know by revelation. The location and geography of the BofM culture is something that in my opinion belongs to a higher authority and until God reveals it to his prophet, we are left with speculation and our best effort to search out the answer within the bounds of what has already been revealed or discovered by observation. In the case of the BofM, this limits us essentially to what is found in the text and what little has been discovered by archealogists, anthropologists and geologists.

Unfortunately what is described in the BofM about the cataclismic events at Christ's death does not fit with the type of cataclismic events that would have had to occurr to cause the changes that Olive, Pridy and others have proposed. Nor does the geological and archaealogical record support any such events either.

Larry P