What Was Mohammed?

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

I thought so.

Do you have a Quran verse handy?

I am talking with a friend about this and he insists this teaching doesn't exist in Islam. I always thought he did, but I have to admit I don't recall ever seeing a verse from the Quran to that effect.

We I heard it before, its form is sort of different. The teaching is you don't go to battle unless your enemy comes against you first 3 times.

[JoCose]

He was a false prophet who started a religion of hate. (The Koran tells people to kill infidels who don't follow the teaching of Mohammed.)

[koakaipo]

I had an Religion Professor at church college who pegged him as a prophet who helped things along so to speak for the eventual restoration. I personally never really thought about it though.

[JoCose]

Mohammed was a false prophet who married other people's wives (after he murdered them while the women watched) and married a girl as young as 9 years old. This is all verifiable information. I have not said anything in this post that isn't true.

Mohammed himself thought that some of the verses he wrote were Satanic, but his first wife talked him out of it.

[X1X]

I had an Religion Professor at church college who pegged him as a prophet who helped things along so to speak for the eventual restoration. I personally never really thought about it though.

Wow that is interesting. What was his reasoning for this? What did Mohammad do to pave the way?

No, they do believe he was the son of God

Why would Muslims believe Jesus was the son of God if the Quran (6:101 and 2:116) says he couldnâ??t have been?

â??Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He created everything, and He is the Knower of all things?â?

We I heard it before, its form is sort of different. The teaching is you don't go to battle unless your enemy comes against you first 3 times.

Can you find that verse for me? The reason I ask is because I was informed that Mohammad went into battle on numerous occasions as the aggressor. In the beginning he was kicked out of Mecca because of his religious fanaticism it seems. He was rebuking those who belonged to the main Meccan religion because it was polytheistic. When he moved to Medina he befriended the local tribes and formed an army. Then he began raiding Meccan caravans without provocation, killing many and taking hostages/slaves. Do you know of any specific instance when Mohammad was attacked three times before he retaliated? I have never heard of such an event.

[ruski_canuk]

Where is the obvious "thought he was a prophet but in fact was a skilled leader and moral teacher who used the attractive concept of one true eligion to bind historically disparate people"

Back then religion was a good reason to make peace with the neighboring city. The more "solid" a religion, the more it flourished and united people under a common percieved cause. The ancient form of Nationalism.

[PreviousLDS]

No, they do believe he was the son of God, and the great arch-angel. He rejected thats he was thee God (the Father). He lived during a time when Christianity was claiming Jesus was God the Father who came down. That concept violates the entire concept of the effect of the Fall and who the Messiah would be, God the Father can 't be the Messiah, and mediate between God the Father and man if he IS God the Father.

The New Testament says that Jesus is Lord and God:

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 10:24-25 [24] The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." [25] Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe."

John 14:9 "... Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. ..."

Koran Sura 5 verse 78 "Christ, the Son of Mary, was no more than an apostle."

See: The Trilemma: Lord, Liar, or Lunatic

Koran Sura 5 verse 75 "They do blaspheme who say God is Christ, the Son of Mary."

Muhammed denied the deity of Christ. Not only denying that He was the Father. Denying that He is God, even "a" god.

[Joseph Antley]

Mohammed was a false prophet who married other people's wives (after he murdered them while the women watched) and married a girl as young as 9 years old. This is all verifiable information. I have not said anything in this post that isn't true.

Mohammed himself thought that some of the verses he wrote were Satanic, but his first wife talked him out of it.

Don't take everything you read on the internet at face value.

[X1X]

Don't take everything you read on the internet at face value

Can't argue with that, however these things do not originate on the internet. They come straight from Islamic sources.

[Bee Eff]

From "Religions of the World - A Latter-day Saint View" Pg. 238; Available through Church Distribution

Joseph Smith taught that "we should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true 'Mormons.'" Latter-day Saint philosophy then, holds that God - not Satan - inspired Muhammad and revealed to him a significant degree of eternal truth that Latter-day Saints should seek to understand and benefit from.

...

The Book of Mormon states that "the Lord doth grant unto all nations ... all that he seeth fit that they should have" (Alma 29:8 ), and the prophet Joseph Smith declared that God deals with the peoples of the earth on the basis of "their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, [and] the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information."

The Quran does not necessarily disagree with Christian teachings and Christ. It is only an interpretation of Muhammad's words that leads one to such an assumption. We, as Latter-day Saints, must make the assumption that the words of Muhammad were in line with the truth, and then prove otherwise. If a teaching is not in harmony with the gospel, it is not true. We have the gospel as a guide to truth, we should not behave as our detractors and assume the worst of other religions, we should assume the best and accept the lack of truth when it occurs. Mainstream Christianity, including Catholocism, comes from Christ's teachings, from our perspective mainstream Christianity currently teaches doctrines extremely contrary to the Gospel as we understand it, this does not mean that the Apostles and Christ were frauds, it means that somewhere the doctrines were altered or misunderstood.

[jerryp48]

I think he was inspired but I think his night dream or vision taking him to Jeruselem was just a dream and not a Heavenly vision.

I've been casually learning more about the man and I'm still trying to figure out why his ministry was so successfull. Was it becuase of his military triumphs?

[Bee Eff]

The New Testament says that Jesus is Lord and God:

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 10:24-25 [24] The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." [25] Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe."

John 14:9 "... Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. ..."

Koran Sura 5 verse 78 "Christ, the Son of Mary, was no more than an apostle."

See: The Trilemma: Lord, Liar, or Lunatic

Koran Sura 5 verse 75 "They do blaspheme who say God is Christ, the Son of Mary."

Muhammed denied the deity of Christ. Not only denying that He was the Father. Denying that He is God, even "a" god.

Quran 005.075

YUSUFALI: Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

PICKTHAL: The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

SHAKIR: The Messiah, son of Marium is but a messenger; messengers before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.

Quran 005.078

YUSUFALI: Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

PICKTHAL: Those of the Children of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus, son of Mary. That was because they rebelled and used to transgress.

SHAKIR: Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.

The Quran does not necessarily state that Christ was not the Son of God, it states that he was a messenger of God. 78 states that Israel was cursed by David and Christ's words, it does not attack Christ.

[Bee Eff]

I think he was inspired but I think his night dream or vision taking him to Jeruselem was just a dream and not a Heavenly vision.

Why not? He provides information he could not have had without them, do you believe Satan inspired him?

I've been casually learning more about the man and I'm still trying to figure out why his ministry was so successfull. Was it becuase of his military triumphs?

Because he held a number of truths. Truth is a very compelling item to have with you. Muhammad provided controls missing from Arabian society at the time, he provided laws of cleanliness and morality that reduced infection and disease, he provided morality in a geographic area where morals were deteriorating.

[jerryp48]

Why not? He provides information he could not have had without them, do you believe Satan inspired him?

Because he held a number of truths. Truth is a very compelling item to have with you. Muhammad provided controls missing from Arabian society at the time, he provided laws of cleanliness and morality that reduced infection and disease, he provided morality in a geographic area where morals were deteriorating.

I havn't even considered that Satan inspired him.

As for why I don't think it was inspired of God, one, in his dream he supposably met Jesus but not as the Savior, two he saw Hell and people there ate hot coals that came out their back side (my words), three in Heaven he saw the righteous surrounded by virgins or maidens.

I'm sure that I havn't got all the details totally accurate but thats what I've gotten so far from what I've read.

[Bee Eff]

I havn't even considered that Satan inspired him.

As for why I don't think it was inspired of God, one, in his dream he supposably met Jesus but not as the Savior, two he saw Hell and people there ate hot coals that came out their back side (my words), three in Heaven he saw the righteous surrounded by virgins or maidens.

I'm sure that I havn't got all the details totally accurate but thats what I've gotten so far from what I've read.

From an LDS perspective, those in the Celestial glory are husbands and wives, some are even polygamous. So, the Heaven vision does not threaten the validity. All the same, the vision could have been symbolic and not literal. The LDS faith has Lehi's vision of the Tree of Life complete with the iron rod and the great and spacious building, it was a vision, but not literal. The Bible has any number of symbolic visions recorded, just because many, if not most (I don't know the statistics), Muslims take the vision as literal does not mean that it was, nor that Muhammad meant what is taught currently in the Nation of Islam.

[X1X]

Latter-day Saint philosophy then, holds that God - not Satan - inspired Muhammad and revealed to him a significant degree of eternal truth that Latter-day Saints should seek to understand and benefit from

I am curious what these truths are. What is it from Mohammad that Mormons are supposed to learn from? Surely the author must have had something in mind for this assertion to be made.

Because he held a number of truths. Truth is a very compelling item to have with you.

But this cannot explain the success of his religion or else we would expect to see Judaism just as successful. Jews were already abiding by the same truths. The laws and customs Mohammad implemented were already the norm in Judaism. He got rid of infanticide in Arabia, but Christians had already outlawed this practice elsewhere. What separates Mohammadâ??s success with that of Christ is that he transformed his religion into a militant force. Without the Islamic conquests Islam would not be the world religion it is today.

Muhammad provided controls missing from Arabian society at the time, he provided laws of cleanliness and morality that reduced infection and disease, he provided morality in a geographic area where morals were deteriorating.

This is an open question I think. The main purpose for Mohammadâ??s conquest of Arabia was to cleanse the area of paganism. He implemented an uncompromising form of monotheism that was already practiced among the Jewish tribes. Mohammad was hardly the man to implement â??moralâ? standards, given his own shortcomings.

The Quran does not necessarily state that Christ was not the Son of God

â??How could God have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing.â? Quran 6:101

Seems pretty clear to me. It would be quite impossible to be a son to someone who cannot have a son.

Islam takes the biblical record as an unreliable source. Muslims do not read it for that purpose. The description of Christ and the story of his life, as accepted in Islam, is based on what Islamic sources say, not the Bible. I guess you could find some way to make this seem flattering towards Christ, but ultimately they deny him what the Bible says was his purpose: to save mankind from sin. In what parallel dimension are Christians supposed to take this as a sign of respect towards him? The fact that Islam denies that Christ died for our sins, or that he was even crucified at all, proves it is not an inspired faith. At least from a Christian perspective I think.

[jerryp48]

Bee Eff,

Good point. It could well have been symbolical but if that was his idea of Heaven doesn't that lend insight into him as a person and what he valued most?

[Bee Eff]

Bee Eff,

Good point. It could well have been symbolical but if that was his idea of Heaven doesn't that lend insight into him as a person and what he valued most?

If he viewed heaven, he saw what he saw. I don't believe God gives visions based on us, visions from God are wholly meaningful, imo. The question should be, why did Muhammad see what he saw? What purpose did it serve?

[jerryp48]

If he viewed heaven, he saw what he saw. I don't believe God gives visions based on us, visions from God are wholly meaningful, imo. The question should be, why did Muhammad see what he saw? What purpose did it serve?

What he saw is evidence to me that it came from him and not from God. That was the point I was trying to make.

[Bee Eff]

I am curious what these truths are. What is it from Mohammad that Mormons are supposed to learn from? Surely the author must have had something in mind for this assertion to be made.

From Religions of the World - A Latter-day Saint View

1. Faith in a God who is omniscient, omnipotent, and eternally concerned with the welfare of all human beings.
   
2. Belief in prophets whom God has raised up in every place and time in world history to teach humanity about the path of happiness through submission to God.
   
3. Observance of religious rituals and acts of worship such as prayer, fasting and charitable giving.
   
4. Emphasis on strong family life.
   
5. Adherence to high standards of moral and ethical conduct
   
6. Observance of a dietary code intended to promote physical health as a means of spiritual well-being
   

But this cannot explain the success of his religion or else we would expect to see Judaism just as successful. Jews were already abiding by the same truths. The laws and customs Mohammad implemented were already the norm in Judaism. He got rid of infanticide in Arabia, but Christians had already outlawed this practice elsewhere. What separates Mohammadâ??s success with that of Christ is that he transformed his religion into a militant force. Without the Islamic conquests Islam would not be the world religion it is today.

Unless of course, the Jews have really fallen away from the truth, also the Jewish religion was never a proscelyting religion. The Hebrew religion at the time of Moses would fall under the same militant accusation you place on Islam.

This is an open question I think. The main purpose for Mohammadâ??s conquest of Arabia was to cleanse the area of paganism. He implemented an uncompromising form of monotheism that was already practiced among the Jewish tribes. Mohammad was hardly the man to implement â??moralâ? standards, given his own shortcomings.

Yes, the same as Moses' and Joshua's conquest after leaving Egypt. Also, David himself showed low moral standards with Bathsheba, the scriptures show various leaders of the people of God having shortcomings, that is the beauty of the Gospel, it makes us better than we are and accepts us with our shortcomings as long as we are working towards repentance.

â??How could God have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing.â? Quran 6:101

Seems pretty clear to me. It would be quite impossible to be a son to someone who cannot have a son.

I now employ what I stated earlier, I will assume Muhammad was speaking correctly. The question could be held as rhetorical. Muhammad admits Christ is the Son of God, does not need to state such. So Muhammad says, If God does not have a wife how could He have a Son? Mormon theology states God has a wife. So 6:101 is stating that if God has a Son, He has a wife. From our perspective.

Islam takes the biblical record as an unreliable source. Muslims do not read it for that purpose. The description of Christ and the story of his life, as accepted in Islam, is based on what Islamic sources say, not the Bible. I guess you could find some way to make this seem flattering towards Christ, but ultimately they deny him what the Bible says was his purpose: to save mankind from sin. In what parallel dimension are Christians supposed to take this as a sign of respect towards him? The fact that Islam denies that Christ died for our sins, or that he was even crucified at all, proves it is not an inspired faith. At least from a Christian perspective I think.

Yes, Muslims do hold the beliefs you state. That does not make their beliefs what Muhammad meant or stated, only their interpretation of his statements. I do not claim that the first person that heard Muhammad understood properly Muhammad's teachings. I only claim that Muhammad was a good man, inspired by God.

[bluebell]

Where's the 'i don't know' option?

Honestly, i truly don't know 'what' Mohammed was.

Because i throughly believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior-i believe that what Mohammed taught was false-but could he have been good intentioned and could some of his teachings been inspired from truth-absolutely!

[Bee Eff]

What he saw is evidence to me that it came from him and not from God. That was the point I was trying to make.

What did he see? Muhammad sees the prophets and interacts with them. He sees marriages occurring, women being in prime physical condition at the time of marriage. Muhammad saw this occurring in the highest sphere of heaven. Mormons believe that in the highest sphere of heaven marriage exists, and continues to occur. Mormons believe that our bodies in heaven are at our most perfect state. Muhammad's vision of heaven is in line with this. Muhammad's vision does fit a portion of what we believe heaven to be. It is the earthly, worldly, view of what his vision means that corrupts the perception one has of his vision.

[Bee Eff]

Where's the 'i don't know' option?

Honestly, i truly don't know 'what' Mohammed was.

Because i throughly believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior-i believe that what Mohammed taught was false-but could he have been good intentioned and could some of his teachings been inspired from truth-absolutely!

Maybe, I do not claim absolute knowledge. I believe that it is entirely possible all my beliefs are wrong. I hope that what I have is truth, that is defined by the Bible as faith. I have faith that my beliefs are correct, but I am not hard hearted such that when I am wrong I will not admit it. My beliefs on Muhammad are merely speculation, but I hope they are accurate, I prefer to believe the best and deal with anything less appropriately. The best scenario is that Muhammad was a true prophet and his followers are incorrect in their beliefs on his words. The worst is the opposite. It doesn't impact my salvation either way, but I hope that Muhammad was a good man that is deserving of grace and mercy.

[bluebell]

Maybe, I do not claim absolute knowledge. I believe that it is entirely possible all my beliefs are wrong. I hope that what I have is truth, that is defined by the Bible as faith. I have faith that my beliefs are correct, but I am not hard hearted such that when I am wrong I will not admit it. My beliefs on Muhammad are merely speculation, but I hope they are accurate, I prefer to believe the best and deal with anything less appropriately. The best scenario is that Muhammad was a true prophet and his followers are incorrect in their beliefs on his words. The worst is the opposite. It doesn't impact my salvation either way, but I hope that Muhammad was a good man that is deserving of grace and mercy.

I agree and that's a good way to think about it-since we truly do not have enough knowledge to judge and for those of us who believe in Christ-knowing whether or not he was a true prophet does not affect our salvation.

[X1X]

1. Faith in a God who is omniscient, omnipotent, and eternally concerned with the welfare of all human beings.

Nothing new here. What you list here had already been a core element in both Christianity and Judaism for centuries, long before Mohammad. It seems he benefited from them more than they him.

Belief in prophets whom God has raised up in every place and time in world history to teach humanity about the path of happiness through submission to God.

Same above.

Observance of religious rituals and acts of worship such as prayer, fasting and charitable giving.

Same above.

Emphasis on strong family life.

This is probably based on a misunderstanding of Mohammadâ??s treatment of women, but again it is hardly anything new. If having outrageously large families in certain poverty is an emphasis on strong family, then maybe you have a point. In any event, I doubt any Mormon women would want their husbands using an Islamic model for their treatment.

Adherence to high standards of moral and ethical conduct

This is too vague a statement to mean anything. What morals did Mohammad allegedly teach that were not already essential components of Judaism and Christianity? There were Jewish tribes all over Arabia. So if wiping out polytheism in Arabia was such a concern for God, why not raise a prophet from one of his chosen people?

Observance of a dietary code intended to promote physical health as a means of spiritual well-being

So this means Mormons are supposed to stop eating pork altogether? I donâ??t see what we are supposed to â??benefit fromâ? here. Mormons have taken the health code further than Muslims, so maybe it is they who should be benefiting from us? It seems Islam had benefited from Judaism and Christianity, not vice versa. Unless someone can point out what Islam brought new to the world, I see little reason to look towards Islam as a source of new truth and light that we can benefit from.

Unless of course, the Jews have really fallen away from the truth

The only sense in which the early Muslims felt Jews had fallen from the truth was manifest in their refusal to accept Mohammed as a prophet. And for that many Jews died. Some were assassinated and entire tribes were banished or even destroyed.

also the Jewish religion was never a proscelyting religion.

Neither is Islam. It spread through conquest. Where are the Muslim missionaries in the US? There is a reason why the vast majority of Muslims in the United States are from Muslim majority countries (64%). Islam has been in American since Mormonism, yet why is it that its population relies on immigration for growth. Another 30% is African American, many of whom were converted in the prison system. Why is it that after two centuries of residence, the majority of Muslim representatives are of a different nationality? Where is the pluralism? Less than 2% are white American converts. If Islam is such a missionary force, then whatâ??s going on here? Are blue-eyed, blonde-haired Caucasians blind to â??truthâ??

The Hebrew religion at the time of Moses would fall under the same militant accusation you place on Islam.

No it wouldnâ??t. The wars you refer to probably never happened, but they were allegedly waged against specific people. Islamic jihad is legal against the entire non-Muslim world which is fittingly called the â??House of War.â? If Judaism is so militant, then what happened to its militancy since the Old Testament?

Yes, the same as Moses' and Joshua's conquest after leaving Egypt. Also, David himself showed low moral standards with Bathsheba, the scriptures show various leaders of the people of God having shortcomings, that is the beauty of the Gospel, it makes us better than we are and accepts us with our shortcomings as long as we are working towards repentance.

This type of moral relativism disregards the fact that Mohammad came centuries after Christianity. Judeo-Christianity had already made tremendous steps in the right direction towards civilization. There had not been a war waged in the name of Judaism for more than a thousand years and Christianity had never waged a war to spread Christianity. Youâ??re reaching way beyond the historical context to find some sense of equivalency to the religious militancy Mohammed reintroduced to the world. Mohammad was not a moral person in a 21st century sense, so 21st century Christians or Jews should not look to Mohammad as a role model. To even refer to him as a moral person seems ridiculous. The man made rape after battle a divinely sanctioned act (and no, that verse is not open to interpretation either).

I now employ what I stated earlier, I will assume Muhammad was speaking correctly. The question could be held as rhetorical. Muhammad admits Christ is the Son of God, does not need to state such.

I am sorry but you are bending over backwards trying to reinterpret the verse from what it clearly says. Also, in Islam the hadith serve as the official interpretation of the Quran and Muslims understand the verse to mean precisely what it clearly says. They follow the hadith and have no room, legally speaking, to interpret the Quran outside the established sunnah. There is no need for you to try reinterpreting it either. Muslims and Mohammad deny that Jesus was the Son of God. This is clear from several Quranic verses and even more references from the hadith.

So Muhammad says, If God does not have a wife how could He have a Son? Mormon theology states God has a wife. So 6:101 is stating that if God has a Son, He has a wife. From our perspective.

Our? Please provide one hadith that concurs. Please provide any Islamic authority from Al Azhar who concurs. For that matter, provide any Islamic authority. If this interpretation is held anywhere in Islam, it is fringe.

Yes, Muslims do hold the beliefs you state. That does not make their beliefs what Muhammad meant or stated, only their interpretation of his statements.

So what are you saying? That in spite of the fact that the Quran says these things, and in spite of the fact that the Islamic community has for fourteen centuries understood these sayings literally, you are suggesting that your interpretation is likely to overthrow theirs in authority and that Islam has been in a state of apostasy all this time? If we cannot rely on the Quran, the ahadith or Islamic jurisprudence to tell us what Muhammad did or said, then what is the point in even trying to make judgments on his claims or his character? This goes for those who would both praise or condemn him.

I do not claim that the first person that heard Muhammad understood properly Muhammad's teachings. I only claim that Muhammad was a good man, inspired by God.

Well, you can only say this while ignoring the available history on the man. One might as well call Abraham Lincoln a homosexual. Historians who wrote about his marriage and attraction to beautiful women could have been basing their work only on their interpretations of what he said and did. I mean it is possible right? All official biographers like Ibn Ishaq, if understood from a Christian perspective, tell a story quite differently about Mohammed.