Egyptian Names In The Book Of Mormon

[Avatar4321]

And that's when serious non-LDS scholars sit up and say, "Hey, maybe there's something to this claim of ancient history!" Has that happened yet?

Well then they soon get baptized and no one accepts them as unbiased because they are now LDS

[Olavarria]

I would like to see someone try to find korean or chinese names in the BoM, the only thing I can think of is Kim(korean).

What impresses me is not so much that egyptian names are in the BoM, BUT THAT THE BOM CLAIMS TO BE WRITTEN IN SOME FORM OF EGYPTIAN AND THAT ALOT OF EGYPTIAN NAMES ARE IN THERE.

If it claimed to be written in some form of chinese, I would want chinese name. If I claimed to be written in Italian, I would want Italian names.

[consiglieri]

Stop the presses! This just in on the Egyptian name "Hermonthis" which finds a disturbing parallel to the Book of Mormon "Hermounts."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We have always thought that the oddest and most disturbing name in the Book of Mormon was Hermounts, since there is nothing either Classical or Oriental about it. So we avoided it, until . . . a student from Saudi Arabia asked point blank what the funny word was. Well, what does the Book of Mormon say it is? Hermounts in the Book of Mormon is the wild country of the borderlands, the hunting grounds, 'that part of the wilderness which was infested by wild and ravenous beasts' (Alma 2:37). The equivalent of such a district in Egypt is Hermonthis, the land of Month, the Egyptian Pan; the god of wild places and things. Hermounts and Hermonthis are close enough to satisfy the most exacting philologist."38

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(Nibley, Since Cumorah, 169. See Nibley, Prophetic Book of Mormon, 246?47, 281.)

And then there is the perilous similarity between Egyptian "Month" and Book of Mormon "Manti."

At some point, even the most sturdy camel's back will break under the increasing load of "coincidences."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Olavarria]

Lets settle this ins the ring:

Aha, Aha

Nephi, Nefri

Paanchi, Pianki

Pahoran, Pahuru

Deseret, Teshret

Her-Amun, Helamen

Meri-Amen, Moriamon

Ameri-Aten,Morianton

Hermounts, Hermonthis(Her-montu)

Herihor, Korihor

Hem,Hem

Hemen, Himni

Middoni, Mittani

Sam, Sam-Tawwi

Manti, Montu

Zenefi, Snefru

Zezorum, Zoser

Amenidab, Amenathabi

VS

Moroni and Commoros

Lets get it on!

[cdowis]

From a previous post:

In a letter addressed to Grant S. Heward of Midvale, Utah, an outspoken

critic of the book of Abraham, William Foxwell Albright, the doyen of

American ancient Near Eastern studies, wrote: "There does appear to be

evidence that Joseph Smith had studied some Egyptian. For one thing, he

undoubtedly spent a great deal of money and effort in trying to master

Egyptian, but, as you know, when the Book of Mormon was written, Egyptian had

just begun to be deciphered and it is all the more surprising that there are

two Egyptian names, Paanch and Pahor(an) which appear together in the Book of

Mormon in close connection with a reference to the original language as being

"Reformed Egyptian."" Albright is mistaken about Joseph Smith having

"studied some Egyptian," for no materials were available to him for such

studies when the Book of Mormon was published; thus the Prophet had to rely

on divine inspiration in translating the Nephite record. But the letter,

dated 25 July 1966, reveals Albright's scholarly opinion that the appearance

of Egyptian in the Book of Mormon is remarkable. Albright's closing paragraph

is also revealing: "I do not for a moment believe that Joseph Smith was

trying to mislead anyone; I accept the point of view of a Jewish friend of

mine at the University of Utah [probably Louis C. Zucker], that he was a

religious genius and that he was quite honest in believing that he really

could decipher these ancient texts. But to insist that he did [mislead] is

really doing a disservice to the cause of a great church and its gifted

founder." The letter was located in the Klaus Baer correspondence file at

the University of Chicago by FARMS researcher Boyd Petersen. Hugh Nibley,

emeritus professor of ancient studies atBYU, was the first to point out the

Egyptian nature of the Book of Mormon names Paanchi and Pahoran. (citation

from FARMS web site) ===============

++++++++++++++++

Please note that Doug Weller (a critic of the LDS church) verified these names with an Egyptologist.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

A response from a critic:

There is no indication that any of these words were beyond

his knowledge or the knowledge of any intelligent person of the time

who could read and had access to a decent library. Was Smith a

reader? Obviously. Could he get books? Obvously. Now, the question

is how could he have had access to knowledge of Egyptian? Doesn't it

seem obvious that the library could have supplied him with such

information, or someone familiar with Egypt? The fact is that there

are four phases of linguistic history in Egypt before it became more

Arabic in lingustic dominance. The first was Early Egyptian, the

second was (naturally enough) Middle Egyptian, then Late, the Coptic.

This linguistic history of transformations is not marked by abrupt

shifts but a linguistic evolutionary continuum of shifting words,

meanings, sounds, and writing. Many things were carried over and the

last of these (Coptic) existed at least into the 17th Century as a

popular language for speech and writing. That the specific words

(names, as you point out) might have existed in Coptic and earlier

forms is not surprising but I'd like to have an Egyptian expert fill

me in on it.

Second, the knowldge of Coptic was not a problem for scholars. It did

not require the Rosetta Stone and Champollion to decipher. There was

some knowledge of ancient Egypt that had been carried forth and, as I

recall, the names of some ncient Egyptians were known without recourse

to the Rosetta Stone. Were these names known prior to the Rosetta

Stone and Champollion's intellectual successors? Why don't we find

out? I'll do some research if you will. Otherwise, parsimony wins.

Third, there is no reason to require the attribution of the above

knowledge of Egyptian or Egypt to non-ordinary sources. As is easily

seen here, if these names were in the literature of the time and if

Smith had access to it (which he seems to have), no divination is

neccessary and parsimonious explanation wins.

In short, there is too much in terms of ordinary explanation to

require Albright's credulousness. Further, Albright did not (insofar

as you have related) demonstrate any knowledge by Smith of knowledge

that was unavailable at the time.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religio...&hl=en&

+++++++++

That library in Palmyra was really something.

[consiglieri]

And then, there are the following "coincidences" to consider.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Whether or not Nehi and Nehri are in any way related to the name Nephi (there are other Egyptian names that come nearer) remains to be investigated. But no philologist will refuse to acknowledge the possible identity of the Book of Mormon Korihor with the Egyptian Kherihor, and none may deny, philologist or not, a close resemblance between Sam and Sam (the brother of Nephi)."6

"[in the Book of Mormon] the experiment with government by priestly judges collapsed, largely due to a rivalry for the chief judgeship among three candidates, all sons of the great chief judge, Pahoran. Their names are Pahoran, Paanchi, and Pacumeni (Helaman 1:1?3). . . . The name of Pahoran reflects the Palestinian Pahura (for the Egyptian Pa-heran; cf. Pa-her-y, 'the Syrian'), which is 'reformed' Egyptian, i.e., a true Egyptian title, but altered in such a way as to adapt it to the Canaanite speech. Pahura (also written Puhuru) was in Amarna times an Egyptian governor (rabu) of Syria. The same man, or another man with the same name, was placed by Pharaoh as governor of the Ube district, with his headquarters at Kumedi (df. the element?kumen in the Book of Mormon place-names). Paanchi is simply the well-known Egyptian Paiankh (also rendered Pianchi, Paankh, etc.)"7

"Paanchi, the son of Pahoran, and pretender to the chief-judgeship, has the same name as one of the best-known kings in Egyptian history, a contemporary of Isaiah and chief actor in the drama of Egyptian history at a time in which the history was intimately involved in the affairs of Palestine. Yet his name, not mentioned in the Bible, remained unknown to scholars until the end of the nineteenth century."9

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6. Hugh Nibley, Lehi in the Desert; The World of the Jaredites; There Were Jaredites, ed. John W. Welch, Darrell L. Matthews, and Stephen R. Calllister (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1988), 20â??21.

7. Ibid., 22â??23. See Hugh Nibley, The Prophetic Book of Mormon, ed. John W. Welch (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1989), 101.

9. Hugh Nibley, An Approach to the Book of Mormon, ed. John W. Welch, 3rd ed. (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1988), 283?84.

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Is it just me, or does anyone else hear the anguished cry of a camel whose back has just snapped?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

cdowis posts this critic's response to Albright's letter:

In short, there is too much in terms of ordinary explanation to

require Albright's credulousness. Further, Albright did not (insofar

as you have related) demonstrate any knowledge by Smith of knowledge

that was unavailable at the time.

I suppose that credulousness is as credulousness does, but it seems to me a tad credulous to attribute this kind of knowledge of Egyptian to a ploughboy who was so naive that he thought Jesus was born in Jerusalem!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[maklelan]

Yep, probably a coincidence. Just like Moroni being a city on the island of Cumora in the Indian Ocean.

...right?

How come every time a laundry list of correlations is brought up that require accounting for your resposne is always an appeal to this island? If this is the one "coincidence" that can be shown to be purely coincidence I still think you guys are about a hundred years away from catching up. How long a list of perfect correlations can be voided by this one example?

[maklelan]

Stop the presses! This just in on the Egyptian name "Hermonthis" which finds a disturbing parallel to the Book of Mormon "Hermounts."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We have always thought that the oddest and most disturbing name in the Book of Mormon was Hermounts, since there is nothing either Classical or Oriental about it. So we avoided it, until . . . a student from Saudi Arabia asked point blank what the funny word was. Well, what does the Book of Mormon say it is? Hermounts in the Book of Mormon is the wild country of the borderlands, the hunting grounds, 'that part of the wilderness which was infested by wild and ravenous beasts' (Alma 2:37). The equivalent of such a district in Egypt is Hermonthis, the land of Month, the Egyptian Pan; the god of wild places and things. Hermounts and Hermonthis are close enough to satisfy the most exacting philologist."38

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Nibley, Since Cumorah, 169. See Nibley, Prophetic Book of Mormon, 246?47, 281.)

And then there is the perilous similarity between Egyptian "Month" and Book of Mormon "Manti."

At some point, even the most sturdy camel's back will break under the increasing load of "coincidences."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Well, we can always turn to El Duderino to provide us with the one coincidence that will overcome the weight of any combinations of literary, philological and geographical correlations.

[Pahoran]

Yep, probably a coincidence. Just like Moroni being a city on the island of Cumora in the Indian Ocean.

...right?

And in order to "improve" the coincidence, you needed to tweak the spelling of Comoros to something that more closely resembles Cumorah.

...right?

Regards,

Pahoran

[consiglieri]

Yep, probably a coincidence. Just like Moroni being a city on the island of Cumora in the Indian Ocean.

...right?

And in order to "improve" the coincidence, you needed to tweak the spelling of Comoros to something that more closely resembles Cumorah.

...right?

Regards,

Pahoran

Dear Pahoran,

I just got back from surfing the web with that same question about "Comoros." I did note, however, that inasmuch as Joseph Smith was winnowing the Atlas in the Palmyra library to find place names for his Book of Mormon people, his finger must have chanced to land on this little island east of Africa; a fortuitous choice inasmuch as the name "Moroni" is of Arabic derivation, according to a web site dealing with the history of the location.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[The Dude]

The island hasn't always been spelled the same way.

[maklelan]

There comes a point, after dozens or even hundreds of such parallels have been demonstrated, when mere dogmatic assertion of coincidence appears less like a serious argument, and more like a faith-claim and an excuse. (Some of us, you know, are skeptical about such things.)

And that's when serious non-LDS scholars sit up and say, "Hey, maybe there's something to this claim of ancient history!" Has that happened yet?

So you're going to anticipate the inevitable continuation of this argument (that there have been numerous correlations from all over the map) by deciding that since scholars aren't flocking to the baptismal font the correlations cannot be that strong?

There have been many schoalrs pointed out in other threads that have said just what you said above. Nissim Wernick, Jordan Vajda, William F. Albright, Klaus Baer, James Charlesworth, Harold Bloom, and Haim Rabin have all made statements virtually identical to the one you made above. That they did not get baptized means absolutely nothing. I taught many people on my mission who prayed and received confirmation of the veracity of the Book of Mormon, and yet they never got baptized. Is this really what non-Mormons are resorting to? Jesus Christ performed miracles all over Judea and most people didn't get baptized. Almost all of the people who did eventually stopped believing. Since when had anyone actually respected this argument?

[consiglieri]

The island hasn't always been spelled the same way.

Dear Duder,

Was there a time, then, when the island was spelled "Cumora"? I was not able to locate a source on that.

All the best!

--Consiglieri

There comes a point, after dozens or even hundreds of such parallels have been demonstrated, when mere dogmatic assertion of coincidence appears less like a serious argument, and more like a faith-claim and an excuse. (Some of us, you know, are skeptical about such things.)

And that's when serious non-LDS scholars sit up and say, "Hey, maybe there's something to this claim of ancient history!" Has that happened yet?

So you're going to anticipate the inevitable continuation of this argument (that there have been numerous correlations from all over the map) by deciding that since scholars aren't flocking to the baptismal font the correlations cannot be that strong?

There have been many schoalrs pointed out in other threads that have said just what you said above. Nissim Wernick, Jordan Vajda, William F. Albright, Klaus Baer, James Charlesworth, Harold Bloom, and Haim Rabin have all made statements virtually identical to the one you made above. That they did not get baptized means absolutely nothing. I taught many people on my mission who prayed and received confirmation of the veracity of the Book of Mormon, and yet they never got baptized. Is this really what non-Mormons are resorting to? Jesus Christ performed miracles all over Judea and most people didn't get baptized. Almost all of the people who did eventually stopped believing. Since when had anyone actually respected this argument?

Let's not forget Margaret Barker's remarkable pronouncement at the May 2005 symposium, The Worlds of Joseph Smith, at the Library of Congress. Does she count as a non-LDS scholar?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[The Dude]

I just got back from surfing the web with that same question about "Comoros." I did note, however, that inasmuch as Joseph Smith was winnowing the Atlas in the Palmyra library to find place names for his Book of Mormon people, his finger must have chanced to land on this little island east of Africa; a fortuitous choice inasmuch as the name "Moroni" is of Arabic derivation, according to a web site dealing with the history of the location.

So it being Arabic now explains the coincidence? Please explain the chain of events that led a city in the Indian Ocean and a Mesoamerican prophet of 400 AD to have identical names. Also, you must explain, with the same chain of logic, how a name like Cumorah/Comoros came to be twice linked with the name Moroni -- once as the island where the city of Moroni is located, and again as a hill where Moroni would bury his plates. Go ahead and explain your explanation.

[JarMan]

What would be really amazing is some Mayan names in the Book of Mormon. Does anybody know of any evidence for that? How many Mayan names are known anyway?

[Pahoran]

The island hasn't always been spelled the same way.

That's right; it's appeared as "Comore" and "Camora." But I'm unable to find a single instance of it being spelled according to your "improved" version.

Can you?

Regards,

Pahoran

[maklelan]

Yep, probably a coincidence. Just like Moroni being a city on the island of Cumora in the Indian Ocean.

...right?

Island of Cumora?

The island hasn't always been spelled the same way.

That's right; it's appeared as "Comore" and "Camora." But I'm unable to find a single instance of it being spelled according to your "improved" version.

Can you?

Regards,

Pahoran

Is Duder changing the spelling so it will sound closer to our Cumorah? Are you really stooping to this kind of scholarship, Dudeness?

[consiglieri]

I just got back from surfing the web with that same question about "Comoros." I did note, however, that inasmuch as Joseph Smith was winnowing the Atlas in the Palmyra library to find place names for his Book of Mormon people, his finger must have chanced to land on this little island east of Africa; a fortuitous choice inasmuch as the name "Moroni" is of Arabic derivation, according to a web site dealing with the history of the location.

So it being Arabic now explains the coincidence? Please explain the chain of events that led a city in the Indian Ocean and a Mesoamerican prophet of 400 AD to have identical names. Also, you must explain, with the same chain of logic, how a name like Cumorah/Comoros came to be twice linked with the name Moroni -- once as the island where the city of Moroni is located, and again as a hill where Moroni would bury his plates. Go ahead and explain your explanation.

Explain my explanation? Man, if I can explain it once, I am doing good for me! I remember at least two occasions where I tried to explain something to you, Dude, only to find that you were already in agreement with me. Let me try to avoid repeating that error.

Is it your position that this is simply a coincidence? Or that Joseph Smith actually copped the names off a map for use in the Book of Mormon?

At first blush, I would agree that the appearance of Moroni and Cumorah in the Book of Mormon would appear to be a coincidence to the city of Moroni on the island of Cumoras in the Indian Ocean.

Boy, that feels good to get that off my chest!

Is it your feeling, Dude, that if I make that concession, you have adequately responded to the list of documented Egyptian names in the Book of Mormon?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Pahoran]

I just got back from surfing the web with that same question about "Comoros." I did note, however, that inasmuch as Joseph Smith was winnowing the Atlas in the Palmyra library to find place names for his Book of Mormon people, his finger must have chanced to land on this little island east of Africa; a fortuitous choice inasmuch as the name "Moroni" is of Arabic derivation, according to a web site dealing with the history of the location.

So it being Arabic now explains the coincidence? Please explain the chain of events that led a city in the Indian Ocean and a Mesoamerican prophet of 400 AD to have identical names. Also, you must explain, with the same chain of logic, how a name like Cumorah/Comoros came to be twice linked with the name Moroni -- once as the island where the city of Moroni is located, and again as a hill where Moroni would bury his plates. Go ahead and explain your explanation.

I think Consiglieri's source is not correct. "Moroni" and "Comoros" are cognate names in the local (Malayo-Polynesian with some African borrowings) language, both meaning "place of fire." Which just might have something to do with the fact that the mountain is a volcano.

As for the Moroni/Moroni coincidence: it's every bit as relevant as gift and gift (English and German.) Note that these are two cognate languages, so the identical words must have identical meanings, right?

No; not even close.

The Book of Mormon traces its origins back to the Near East and insists on connections to Egypt, of all places. Now it happens that "Moroni" is a perfectly good Egyptian name; the son of Rameses II is usually called "Merneptah," because no-one knows what the vowels should really be, and so "e" is inserted by default; but when we remove the theophoric element "Ptah," we are left with the consonants "Mrn," and "Moroni" is as good a guess as any.

Cumorah is the same name as Gommorah, which in turn is thought to be one possible source for Qumran. With your subjective partiality towards atheistic explanations, you will of course prefer your rather meaningless coincidence, but I think it considerably more significant that both Cumorah and Qumran were places where sacred records were found deposited after their custodians had been wiped out.

Clearly when Joseph was making stuff up, he must have been trying to leverage off the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were of course well-known around Palmyra in the 1820's.

Regards,

Pahoran

[The Dude]

Is Duder changing the spelling so it will sound closer to our Cumorah? Are you really stooping to this kind of scholarship, Dudeness?

Not intentionally. I should have said Comore/Camora instead of Cumora. I should tattoo it on my forehead.

[Lachoneus]

Marroni is the Italian plural for the delicasy [chestnuts] . . ..

Real, real close. Not that it matters, but let me clarify this a little.

â??Marroneâ? is the Italian word for â??brown.â? The plural of â??marroneâ? is â??marroni.â? The word â??marroneâ? is also used as a short form of the full name of a specific variety of Italian chestnut, Marrone di Caprese Michelangelo, which is native to the great artistâ??s hometown. The actual Italian word for â??chestnutâ? is â??castagna.â? The plural is â??castagne.â? They are a popular Italian treat around Christmas and can be purchased hot roasted on nearly every street corner during December.

Ciao, Tutti!

[consiglieri]

I just got back from surfing the web with that same question about "Comoros." I did note, however, that inasmuch as Joseph Smith was winnowing the Atlas in the Palmyra library to find place names for his Book of Mormon people, his finger must have chanced to land on this little island east of Africa; a fortuitous choice inasmuch as the name "Moroni" is of Arabic derivation, according to a web site dealing with the history of the location.

So it being Arabic now explains the coincidence? Please explain the chain of events that led a city in the Indian Ocean and a Mesoamerican prophet of 400 AD to have identical names. Also, you must explain, with the same chain of logic, how a name like Cumorah/Comoros came to be twice linked with the name Moroni -- once as the island where the city of Moroni is located, and again as a hill where Moroni would bury his plates. Go ahead and explain your explanation.

I think Consiglieri's source is not correct. "Moroni" and "Comoros" are cognate names in the local (Malayo-Polynesian with some African borrowings) language, both meaning "place of fire." Which just might have something to do with the fact that the mountain is a volcano.

As for the Moroni/Moroni coincidence: it's every bit as relevant as gift and gift (English and German.) Note that these are two cognate languages, so the identical words must have identical meanings, right?

No; not even close.

The Book of Mormon traces its origins back to the Near East and insists on connections to Egypt, of all places. Now it happens that "Moroni" is a perfectly good Egyptian name; the son of Rameses II is usually called "Merneptah," because no-one knows what the vowels should really be, and so "e" is inserted by default; but when we remove the theophoric element "Ptah," we are left with the consonants "Mrn," and "Moroni" is as good a guess as any.

Cumorah is the same name as Gommorah, which in turn is thought to be one possible source for Qumran. With your subjective partiality towards atheistic explanations, you will of course prefer your rather meaningless coincidence, but I think it considerably more significant that both Cumorah and Qumran were places where sacred records were found deposited after their custodians had been wiped out.

Clearly when Joseph was making stuff up, he must have been trying to leverage off the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were of course well-known around Palmyra in the 1820's.

Regards,

Pahoran

Dear Pahoran,

I can't vouch for the authority of my site, but I will give it to you here.

http://www.comoros-info.com/Moroni-99/html

Although I don't read Arabic, the site lists the name "Moroni" and then follows it in parenthesis with (Arabic: and then some impressive looking curly-cues that look a lot like Arabic writing).

Since my Arabic keyboard is broken (except for the numerals), I will cut and paste the paragraph below:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Moroni (Arabic: موروني) is the largest city of the Comoros and since 1962 its capital. In 1990, it had roughly 23,400 residents. The city is located on the western coast of Grande Comore island. Moroni is served by the Moroni Hahaya international airport (IATA airport code: HAH). There is also a harbour with regular transport to the African mainland and the other islands in the Comoros archipelago, as well as Madagascar and other Indian ocean islands.

Moroni is located at 11

[maklelan]

Is Duder changing the spelling so it will sound closer to our Cumorah? Are you really stooping to this kind of scholarship, Dudeness?

Not intentionally. I should have said Comore/Camora instead of Cumora. I should tattoo it on my forehead.

That hurts.

I have a tattoo across my back and I'm not gonna lie, it hurt like crazy. The thinner the skin and the less muscle between skin and bone the worse the pain is.

[consiglieri]

Is Duder changing the spelling so it will sound closer to our Cumorah? Are you really stooping to this kind of scholarship, Dudeness?

Not intentionally. I should have said Comore/Camora instead of Cumora. I should tattoo it on my forehead.

Or you could just remember the Dean Martin classic about the moon hitting your eye like a big pizza pie;

"That's Comore."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for "Let go of my chestnuts, already!")