maklelan Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 I'm not reaching any profound conclusions at all. I just find it interesting that what one does with correlations depends entirely on one's position towards the Book of Mormon.You've already employed this argument with me, and my response was:Then why do James Charlseworth, Haim Rabin, Jordan Vajda, Nissim Wernick, Harold Bloom, W. F. Albright and Klaus Baer all say that there are correlations that require serious attention? No one has addressed this fact, but repeated requests for non-Mormon corroboration are made. When the request is granted the argument turns into another argument from silence. So I ask you, if a testimony invariably comes before recognition of correlations, why do the above mentioned world-renowned non-Mormon authorities point to the same correlations we do and say, "This is important"? More importantly, why do you continue to ignore them?The fact that several nighly, highly respected non-Mormon scholars say these correlations are important does not seem to have been considered in your formulation of the above post. I again ask that it be addressed.
Jaybear Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 The fact that several nighly, highly respected non-Mormon scholars say these correlations are important does not seem to have been considered in your formulation of the above post. I again ask that it be addressed.Do they? In the first post in this thread, I have a hard time distinquishing actual quotes from Albright, from the conclusory statement attributed to Albright. There are also bracketed text appearing within the quoted section. Is there a link to the actual letter.
USU78 Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 Marroni is the Italian plural for the delicasy [chestnuts] . . .. Real, real close. Not that it matters, but let me clarify this a little. â??Marroneâ? is the Italian word for â??brown.â? The plural of â??marroneâ? is â??marroni.â? The word â??marroneâ? is also used as a short form of the full name of a specific variety of Italian chestnut, Marrone di Caprese Michelangelo, which is native to the great artistâ??s hometown. The actual Italian word for â??chestnutâ? is â??castagna.â? The plural is â??castagne.â? They are a popular Italian treat around Christmas and can be purchased hot roasted on nearly every street corner during December. Ciao, Tutti!That's as may be, but it still doesn't answer the question why Moroni was named for an old world edible nut and not the new world inedible buckeye.Questions like these need answers, Lachoneus, and no amount of huffing and puffing by you about street-slang names of Christmas treats in Locarno's streets is going to save Moroni from Comore.USU "In Bountiful, where love is king" 78
William Schryver Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 Marroni is the Italian plural for the delicasy [chestnuts] . . .. Real, real close. Not that it matters, but let me clarify this a little.“Marrone” is the Italian word for “brown.” The plural of “marrone” is “marroni.” The word “marrone” is also used as a short form of the full name of a specific variety of Italian chestnut, Marrone di Caprese Michelangelo, which is native to the great artist’s hometown. The actual Italian word for “chestnut” is “castagna.” The plural is “castagne.” They are a popular Italian treat around Christmas and can be purchased hot roasted on nearly every street corner during December.Ciao, Tutti!Credo che ci sia un'altro missionario italiano qui! Anch'io e Professore Hamblin. Solo i migliori sono chiamati al'Italia. Hamblin: La Missione Italiana del Sud, '73 - '75. Schryver: La Missione Italiana di Catania: '79 - '81.
USU78 Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 Marroni is the Italian plural for the delicasy [chestnuts] . . .. Real, real close. Not that it matters, but let me clarify this a little.â??Marroneâ? is the Italian word for â??brown.â? The plural of â??marroneâ? is â??marroni.â? The word â??marroneâ? is also used as a short form of the full name of a specific variety of Italian chestnut, Marrone di Caprese Michelangelo, which is native to the great artistâ??s hometown. The actual Italian word for â??chestnutâ? is â??castagna.â? The plural is â??castagne.â? They are a popular Italian treat around Christmas and can be purchased hot roasted on nearly every street corner during December. Ciao, Tutti!Credo che ci sia un'altro missionario italiano qui! Anch'io e Professore Hamblin. Solo i migliori sono chiamati al'Italia. Hamblin: La Missione Italiana del Sud, '73 - '75. Schryver: La Missione Italiana di Catania: '79 - '81.Kein Mensch mag das Volk vom SuedenUSU "Ein Italiano . . . gar ein Tenore" 78
Tarski Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 i recommend any one interested in the subject to buy or check out the two Egyptian dictionaries Wallis Budge created. Get the dictionaries and the list of names at the back of the BoM and have at it.Aha, AhaNephi, NefriPaanchi, PiankiPahoran, PahuruDeseret, TeshretHer-Amun, HelamenMeri-Amen, MoriamonAmeri-Aten,MoriantonHermounts, Hermonthis(Her-montu)Herihor, KorihorHem,HemHemen, HimniMiddoni, MittaniSam, Sam-TawwiManti, MontuZenefi, SnefruZezorum, ZoserAmenidab, Amenathabi....................................... Im tiredWhy can't you guys be consitent??? Your list reminds me of the list of Vernal Holly. I am assured that the matches are "weak" and "laughable". But your list is definitely worse. Her-Amun=Helamen???By comparison, the following looks good!Agathe, ....Saint * Ogath Alma .....Alma Angola .....Angola Antrim .....Antum Antioch ....Anti-Anti Boaz ....Boaz Conner..... Comner Ephrem, .... Ephraim, Hill Hellam...... Helam Jacobsburg ....Jacobugath Jordan ....Jordan Jerusalem.... Jerusalem Kishkiminetas.... Kishkumen Lehigh.... Lehi Mantua... Manti Monroe.... Moroni Minoa... Minon Moraviantown.... Morianton Morin..... Moron
William Schryver Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 Her Amun and Hel Amen are actually essentially identical in Egyptian, since the "R" and "L" are represented by the same character:
Olavarria Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 But we don't. Nobody has ever suggested that Mayan, Olmec, Incan, or any other ancient mesoamerican languages bear any hallmarks of Egyptian influence. But even more problematic for apologists is the lack of mesoamerican language in the BoM. How could BoM people live for 1000 years among Mayans (et al) without picking up words that are characteristically mesoamerican? Words like Xochicalco, Yaxchilan, Omecihuatl, Tezcatlipoca, Quetzalcoatl, or Chalchiuhtlicue? MIGHTY CURELOM, ANSWER THESE QUESTIANS 1) Give me one Olmec name. Give me the name of one Olmec person male or female.2) Why should BoM names look Aztec(Nahuatl) is the Mexicas were not in chiapas,veracruz or Oaxaca during pre-classic times. In fact, they were either in northern Mexico or south western USA.3) Give me three pre-classic mayan names. The names must come from inscriptions dating from 600BCE-200BCE.
Olavarria Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 Ive come to the conclusion that The New Testament is not an ancient book. I have friends named Timothy,Paul,Luke<matheww,Mark,Luke John and a mexican friend named Jesus. The way you test the BoM names to see if they are ancient egyptian names IS TO COMPARE THEM WITH ANCIENT EGYPTIAN NAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
USU78 Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 I wonder how the Maya [throne?] name 18 Rabbit would translate into Old High Nephite.USU "Lamoni, maybe?" 78
The Dude Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 The way you test the BoM names to see if they [appear to be] ancient egyptian names IS TO COMPARE THEM WITH ANCIENT EGYPTIAN NAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! [edit by TD]Well, duh!
cdowis Posted October 31, 2006 Posted October 31, 2006 >I just find it interesting that what one does with correlations depends entirely on one's position towards the Book of Mormon.The real issue is not isolated coincidences, but a tapestry of coincidence. We find the NHM coincidence in conjunction with the land of Bountiful coincidence (with no less than 12 points of correspondence to the BOM description). We find multiple Egyptian names coincidence, with a coincidence that one of the few authentic Mayan city names is Lamanai, the mayan use hieroglyphics as Egyptian, the coincidence of sheum relating to grain. We find the coincidence of hebraisms in the BOM text. The name of Alma as a male, semite name coincidence.We see the coincidence of mesoamerica and the cement, the towers used in religious practices, human sacrifice, extensive record keeping, calendar which are UNIQUE to mesoamerica, not among the native americans in the state of NY of JS.The multiple authors of the BOM text coincidence. The nonLDS scholars being impressed with various aspects of the text coincidence.Even the Cumoros, Moroni with Arabic inhabitants coincidence (Dude, are you still unable to prove the Swahili roots of these names?)With all of these coincidences, to whom was JS writing this book? Whom exactly was he trying to impress, with all this stuff? The farmers of NY?
The Dude Posted November 1, 2006 Posted November 1, 2006 Even the Cumoros, Moroni with Arabic inhabitants coincidence (Dude, are you still unable to prove the Swahili roots of these names?)You missed it in this very thread. Pahoran weighed in on my side as far as the origin of those names. I was right, you were wrong. Wa hoo! Also, you never did expailn the logic for how Arabic origins for those names (even if that was the case) would have explained the pairing of Comoros/Moroni as island/city, along with Cumorah/Moroni paired in JS's story as as hill/angel. The pairing is the significant thing. Otherwise it's just another lame singleton like the Egyptian:BoM pairs (or Vernal Holley:BoM pairs).
Not quite me Posted November 1, 2006 Posted November 1, 2006 Then why do James Charlseworth, Haim Rabin, Jordan Vajda, Nissim Wernick, Harold Bloom, W. F. Albright and Klaus Baer all say that there are correlations that require serious attention? No one has addressed this fact, but repeated requests for non-Mormon corroboration are made. When the request is granted the argument turns into another argument from silence. So I ask you, if a testimony invariably comes before recognition of correlations, why do the above mentioned world-renowned non-Mormon authorities point to the same correlations we do and say, "This is important"? More importantly, why do you continue to ignore them?In case you missed it, I asked Professor Charlesworth about these supposed correlations. He replied that he does not recall ever making any statement about such correlations.
cdowis Posted November 1, 2006 Posted November 1, 2006 Then why do James Charlseworth, Haim Rabin, Jordan Vajda, Nissim Wernick, Harold Bloom, W. F. Albright and Klaus Baer all say that there are correlations that require serious attention? No one has addressed this fact, but repeated requests for non-Mormon corroboration are made. When the request is granted the argument turns into another argument from silence. So I ask you, if a testimony invariably comes before recognition of correlations, why do the above mentioned world-renowned non-Mormon authorities point to the same correlations we do and say, "This is important"? More importantly, why do you continue to ignore them?In case you missed it, I asked Professor Charlesworth about these supposed correlations. He replied that he does not recall ever making any statement about such correlations.From a previous post:James H. Charlesworth, the noted specialist on Old World Pseudepigrapha, wrote an article comparing certain aspects of the BOM with the pseudepigrapha and came to the following conclusion, "there are many other important parallels between the pseudepigrapha and the Book of Mormon that deserve careful examination."
Not quite me Posted November 1, 2006 Posted November 1, 2006 Then why do James Charlseworth, Haim Rabin, Jordan Vajda, Nissim Wernick, Harold Bloom, W. F. Albright and Klaus Baer all say that there are correlations that require serious attention? No one has addressed this fact, but repeated requests for non-Mormon corroboration are made. When the request is granted the argument turns into another argument from silence. So I ask you, if a testimony invariably comes before recognition of correlations, why do the above mentioned world-renowned non-Mormon authorities point to the same correlations we do and say, "This is important"? More importantly, why do you continue to ignore them?In case you missed it, I asked Professor Charlesworth about these supposed correlations. He replied that he does not recall ever making any statement about such correlations.From a previous post:James H. Charlesworth, the noted specialist on Old World Pseudepigrapha, wrote an article comparing certain aspects of the BOM with the pseudepigrapha and came to the following conclusion, "there are many other important parallels between the pseudepigrapha and the Book of Mormon that deserve careful examination."Oops, this is the wrong thread. The same claim was made about the Book of Abraham. Apologies.
charity Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 Oh, the Charlesworth thing was a confusion of topics. I thought we had another Professor Anthon--don't hold me acocuntable for any nice thing I might have said before I found out angels were involved--situation. That is disappointing.
Warship Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 Jarman ,>>What would be really amazing is some Mayan names in the Book of Mormon. Does anybody know of any evidence for that? How many Mayan names are known anyway?I ran across this list some time ago at Meridian Magazine ...http://www.ldsmag.com/ancients/050526mesoamerica.htmlKib Name of the sixth month in the Yucatec Maya calendar.Shule Name of the sixteenth day of the 260-day calendar in Yucatec.Akish Close parallel to the Quiche Maya Kaqix (Caquix) of the Popol Vuh. The name combines kaq "red" and qix "feather" and means the scarlet macaw parrot. (Tedlock 1985: 237). (The x is pronounced as sh in English in Mesoamerican words and names.)Com Tzotzil Maya for "log stool" or "armadillo"(Laughlin 1975: 104). Kish Two meanings for this word are available: (1) "kix" in Yucatec and Chol Maya, meaning "spine," "thorn," and maybe "stingray spine" (Stross 1998: e-mail) and (2) "kix" in the Palenque hieroglyphs "feather" (Kelley 1965, 112, 114, Figures 23,34,49-53). The glyph at Palenque on the Tablet of the Cross is associated with the calendar name Nine Wind of Quetzalcoatl. Kelley's Figure 34. From Teotihuacan, Mexico, shows Quetzalcoatl with beard and feathers and emphasizes the serpent fangs. It could be that both the meanings are relevant, and that the feathers and fangs are both important.Shiblon The Shib or Xib part of the name is very common inYucatec Maya--for example, Chak-Xib-Chak, Ek-Xib-Chak, Sak-Xib-Chak, Kan-Xib-Chak, etc.Place Name OriginHill Shim In Yucatec Maya and other Mayan languages â?? for example, an ear of corn or kernels of corn is ixim (Laughlin 1975: 419) In the Tuxtla Mountains of southern Veracruz, Mexico, one of the mountains is called Cintepec in the Aztec language. Cintepec means "corn hill." The Aztecs lived late in Mesoamerican history and were glossing earlier names with the equivalent in their own language. In Mayan languages, it would be ixim (as mentioned earlier, the x becomes sh in English).Wilderness of Akish As noted above, Akish is very similar to the Kiche Maya name Kaqix or Caquix. This name refers to the macaw parrot. The Tuxtla Mountains of southern Veracruz were glossed, by the Aztecs as Toztlan, which means the place of the macaw parrots. The Aztec place name glyph also depicts a macaw parrot for these mountains (Covarrubias 1947: 26, n. 4).Land of Heth A land by the east sea mentioned early in the Jaredite account. The indirect hint for the location of this land centers on the meaning of the letter Heth in Hebrew. The letter Heth relates to the Big Dipper constellation and the number seven (Moran and Kelley 1969: 49, 81). The Popol Vuh account of Wukub Kaqix associates him with the Big Dipper, and his name means "seven macaw" Could this be the land of Heth to the Tuxtla Mountains region of southern Veracruz? Both the Big Dipper constellation and the macaw parrot are tied to Wukub Kaqix. Perhaps the land of Heth and the wilderness of Akish are adjacent to each other.ReferencesCovarrubias, Miguel. Mexico South: The Isthmus of Tehuantepec. New York: Alfred A Knopf, 1947.Kelley, David H. "American Parallels," In The Alphabet and the Ancient Calendar Signs. By Moran and Kelley, Part II. Palo Alto: Daily Press, 1969.Laughlin, Robert M. The Great Tzotzil Dictionary of San Lorenzo Zinacatan. Smithsonian Contributions to Anthropology No. 19. Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1975.Stross, Brian. E-mail correspondence with Bruce Warren, June 1998.Tedlock, Dennis, trans. Popol Vuh: The Definitive Edition of the Maya Book of the Dawn of Life and the Glories of Gods and Kings. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1985.Editor's Note: The personal name Kish gives us an especially intriguing connection between the Book of Mormon Jaredites and the Olmec culture. Bruce Warren's discussion of this subject with figures can be read on AAF's web site: Research Note No. 106: "KISH" A Personal Name.Other prior notes that draw from this interesting chapter include the following: AAF Note # 40: Jaredites and Serpents;AAF Note # 46: Ixtilxochitl's Record of Jaredite/Olmec/Tulteca Beginnngs;AAF Note # 111: Ancient American Writings;AAF Note # 117: Jaredite Connections with Mesoamerica.
The Dude Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 KibShuleComKishShimHethShibSingle syllable similarities are the kind most likely to appear by chance. Is there a Myan word that sounds like "moo" or "woof"?Akish = Kaqi(sh)Marginally better.
Jerubaal Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 Consider for example, "Aha." Are we supposed to believe that his parents knew he would be a great warrior recorded in scripture, and therefore named him Aha, after an Egyptian king, and which also means warrior?One should keep in mind that kings often take on new names when they take the throne. Kind of like the Ceasars.By comparison, I would note how the antis would point to the similarity of the name of the Great Prophet Onondagus, compared to the county in New York named Onandaga county. Only a non-mormon would find the names remotely similar.Really? Then I guess you haven't read the BYU Studies article on the Zelph story that purposely points out the strong ties between Onangagus and the Iroquois tribe the "Onondaga" from which the county name comes?
Jerubaal Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 One of the major textual anachronisms I see is the dependence of Alma 12-13 on Hebrews 5-7 (as well as other chunks of the NT) in its expansion of Paul's teachings about priesthood and Melchizedek. Unless Paul was magically channeling Alma, the text is clearly a later production that takes off from the NT.Or another consideration is that both were receiving their inspiration from the same God and Joseph Smith decided to couch concepts he was familiar with in language he was familiar with. This issue has been dealt with at extremely great length.Might I suggest the concluding lecture of this year's Sperry Symposium for further insights on the matter?
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