Retention - Why Do So Many Latter-day Saints Go Inactive,

[T-Bone]

It was very easy to fall away in my BYU ward. I was baptized as a kid but did not go for years. I came back as an adult. I can give many reasons why I decided to leave, but I'll boil it down to "Mormons do not know how to deal with adult converts."

More specifically:

An adult convert who has not been on a mission feels isolated when every EQ lesson starts with "How my mission blessed me." Especially when it's followed up by a recent RM proclaiming that people who don't go on missions all end up being losers.

An adult convert who has no children feels uncomforable when members start to grill him on why he doesn't have children, especially when it's followed up by people offering unsolicited advice on fertility treatments (a bit TMI, so no thanks).

An adult convert whose spouse is not interested feels very uncomfortable when strangers start calling that spouse and asking personal questions.

An adult convert who has a decent job and the respect of his fellows feels put down when a bishop he has met once or twice tells him that his views are 'irrelevant at this point.' No, I was not preaching false doctrine from the stand. It was in a private meeting with the bishop.

I'm willing to guess that most people will call me a crybaby. That's cool. It just shows that the feelings of members who feel put down are invalidated.

The feeling of isolation from my ward got my attention, and I started to hear anti-church arguments. I started to research and prayerfully try to find answers to those questions. I found more questions than answers. I prayed, I fasted, I visited the temple. And eventually, I found that I was not the only one going through this experience. I felt less isolated when I found others who were questioning. I found that many of them had the same questions.

So, after a very prayerful 2-3 years, I decided to leave. I hasten to add that the day I sent in my resignation, I still had a valid temple recommend. (But I thought you said you had doubts? Yes, I did say that. But even after expressing those to my bishop, he signed my recommend.)

[Mighty Curelom]

To fix the problem of low conversion retention rates, you must first understand that conversion and deconversion are largely the same process. Members are visited by ex-Mormon missionaries, who teach potential ex-Members the basics of ex-Mormonism. After two weeks of occassional visits, members are encouraged to pray about the truth of ex-Mormonism, and be debaptized out of the faith. Once deconverted, deconverts are encouraged not to socialize with non-apostates, and to date and/or marry only other ex-Mormons, thus strengthening the social bonds within the ex-Mormon community. Deconverts are also encouraged required to attend weekly three hour meetings where the basics of ex-Mormonism are taught. (And retaught. And retaught. And retaught.) Children of ex-Mormons are to be raised in the faith of ex-Mormonism, and at age 8 are told asked to sign a pledge stating their official allegiance to the cause of ex-Mormonism.

Once you understand the process of deconversion, you've made the first step toward lower deconversion rates.

[cougarfan]

I think it would be nice if there was better new member retention, etc. However, I don't think these activity levels are historically abnormal. Additionally, sacrament meeting attendance percentages would be very high compared to all persons baptized Catholic or Protestant.

My anecdotal experience is that where average sacrament meeting attendance may be 40+%, the number that attend at least once a quarter is probably 60+%. Additionally, of the other 40%, at least half accept home teachers and would describe themselves as LDS (including shut-ins, those living out of conformity with church teachings, and those simply to lazy or distracted or disinterested to attend). The balance of 20% are indeed people who actively disagree with church teachings, those who can't or barely do remember their baptisms, and those who just don't care.

Setting up obstacles to baptism would only serve as an obstacle to those who wish to follow Christ. I think you should consider that the majority of converts join because of a need or turmoil in theirs lives. The number of prosperous, educated, and well adjusted converts is very low in almost every area. These new members need additional ministry from the members (they would need that attention even if the were long term members).

Your tone implies you believe that it would be better if those who would not remain in full fellowship never joined the church. From both a human and a doctrinal standpoint, I disagree with that assertion. These members are a tremendous opportunity to those of us who are TBMs to get involved and feel that blessings that come from serving our brothers and sisters. My experience is that the preponderance of inactivity in new members could be avoided if members: 1) fully fellowshipped and friendshipped new members, overtly sustained the new members in the new members church callings, and 3) took new members to the temple to do baptisms every few months until they receive their endowments.

Finally, I was privileged to have been an Elders Quorum President in a ward that had an awakening with over 20 men ordained Elders over an eighteen month period. It was surprising how many of these activations took place among the 20% hard core inactives. When the members truly invest themselves in their ministries, the Lord can make amazing things happen.

[Cumorah3]

To fix the problem of low conversion retention rates, you must first understand that conversion and deconversion are largely the same process. Members are visited by ex-Mormon missionaries, who teach potential ex-Members the basics of ex-Mormonism. After two weeks of occassional visits, members are encouraged to pray about the truth of ex-Mormonism, and be debaptized out of the faith. Once deconverted, deconverts are encouraged not to socialize with non-apostates, and to date and/or marry only other ex-Mormons, thus strengthening the social bonds within the ex-Mormon community. Deconverts are also encouraged required to attend weekly three hour meetings where the basics of ex-Mormonism are taught. (And retaught. And retaught. And retaught.) Children of ex-Mormons are to be raised in the faith of ex-Mormonism, and at age 8 are told asked to sign a pledge stating their official allegiance to the cause of ex-Mormonism. Once you understand the process of deconversion, you've made the first step toward lower deconversion rates.

I admit to being naive in some things so it may not be surprising that even though I live in Utah I've never before heard of such an organized "ex-Mormon" church as you describe above. Is that for real, and if so how widespread is it? Or is that just a bad hair day attempt at humor, sarcasm, whatever?

[T-Bone]

To fix the problem of low conversion retention rates, you must first understand that conversion and deconversion are largely the same process. Members are visited by ex-Mormon missionaries, who teach potential ex-Members the basics of ex-Mormonism. After two weeks of occassional visits, members are encouraged to pray about the truth of ex-Mormonism, and be debaptized out of the faith. Once deconverted, deconverts are encouraged not to socialize with non-apostates, and to date and/or marry only other ex-Mormons, thus strengthening the social bonds within the ex-Mormon community. Deconverts are also encouraged required to attend weekly three hour meetings where the basics of ex-Mormonism are taught. (And retaught. And retaught. And retaught.) Children of ex-Mormons are to be raised in the faith of ex-Mormonism, and at age 8 are told asked to sign a pledge stating their official allegiance to the cause of ex-Mormonism.

Once you understand the process of deconversion, you've made the first step toward lower deconversion rates.

I don't know you well, so I am guessing you're joking. I was never visited by exmo missionaries. In fact, I can click out of an exmo web site any time I like.

T-Bone

[PosterMania]

It is not the missionaries who are necessarily at fault for baptizing people 'too soon.' The missionaries follow the policies of Church leaders. Playing the 'numbers' game, in my view, is a sure way to create shallow-root converts who will fall over during a gusty wind.

Missionaries in my mission were given awards for having the most baptisms in a month. As a result, there were missionaries that I saw who convinced people to get baptized with no regards for the teaching.

This was not the exception. I saw it many times on my mission.

Awards for "high baptizers" is a really poor way to run a mission.

[T-Bone]

This web site has a discussion about retention of new converts. It's by members as far as I know.

http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/mis...ractice-per-se/

T-Bone

[PosterMania]

Cumorah3:

I'm not too sure that our retention rates are any worse than what any other religion is. Some stats I seen show us to be slightly better than most. Plus we keep far better track of people than any other group that I know of.

But going back to the overall questtion of how to improve our retention. I'd say having a Testamony, a Calling, and a Friend would diminish the inactivity rate to near Zero.

I cant remember, but I saw some news story recently that said that other churches had a better retention rate than ours.

Now if I could just remember where I read this?

WAIT I remember! It is in the Salt Lake Tribune, LDS News and the story is called "Keeping Members a Challange for the LDS Church".

I dont know if links are allowed, but here is the one to the trib story:

http://www.sltrib.com/lds/ci_2890645

[DanielMElliott]

OK as a terminal lurker on this board I have to say something. It sure seems like we're riding the wrong end of this horse. I don't see that much is accomplished by focusing on "falling away stories", (except for feeding negativity). It's real easy to be reactionary and critical, especially from the sidelines. Since before I was a missionary I've heard members say we shouldn't baptize people so fast, or that someone got baptized for the "wrong reason", or didn't know enough. I don't seem to recall Mormon, Paul or even Joseph Smith ever talking about how we need to slow down the pace at which the gospel needs to be spread though out the world.

It seems like some people expect a person to have studied with the missionaries for at least a year, have read all of the standard works, hardened themselves against anti-Mormon literature, make more than $45,000 a year and be well established in their cultural and social identity before they should be baptised.

According to that attitude we shouldn't hope for much out of this 19 year old kid I know who got baptized in my old ward. I mean he has nothing going for him. He has a low paying job, isn't in college, has no family or close friends in the church, got baptized five days after his first discussion, Isn't interested in going on a mission, and to top it off a few weeks after his baptism another 19 year old, who's been raised in the church, pulled a knife on him in the church parking lot. (One of the many reasons why I'm not raising my kids there) Maybe the churches efforts would be better spent in working with someone who'll make a good EQ president or YM president.

Honestly It's always easy to find reasons why someone left but shouldn't the effort be in finding what works at helping people grow in thier testimonies and knowledge of the gospel. There always seems to be many reasons why people leave or fall away but the reasons people stay seem to be fairly consistent. A friend, a responsibility and most importantly nurturing though the word of God. It may not be perfect but since people aren't that perfect I think it fits. I'm not saying ignore the negative but I am saying our energies would be better utilized on the positives and what has proven to work.

Daniel

[Cumorah3]

I dont know if links are allowed, but here is the one to the trib story:

http://www.sltrib.com/lds/ci_2890645

When I first read David Stewart's research I was serving a senior LDS mission and was so concerned that he might have gotten it wrong that I contacted him to see if he was an active LDS and not an anti-Mormon. He assured me that he was, and provided valid references.

I think the SL Tribune fairly accurately represents what Stewart is revealing. It seems quite obvious that although the LDS Church is growing worldwide, it is not growing at the same pace as some other churches who have mastered the practice of "church planting." One or two highly trained, talented, and very mobile people cover assigned geographic areas, quickly train a few people here and there in how to build local congregations, then move on, leaving the newly trained devotees on their own to talk to their neighbors etc and build from scratch a new neighborhood congregation. It works, and it multiplies exponentially like a commercial MLM organization.

I know with no doubt whatsoever that the Joseph Smith story is true and the gospel in it's fullness has been restored to the earth and embodied in the LDS Church. But I've also been a member of the Church for long enough to know that programs come and go, and that a large bureaucratic structure exists to administer the temporal affairs of the Church that sometimes seems to be more responsive to outdated statistics than to local suggestions and new opportunities that could be pursued by faith.

Perhaps that's the way it needs to be, I don't know, but it's not working as well to build new congregations and retain members worldwide as what some other churches are doing.

The Utah model of building expensive meetinghouses and rigidly operating a set of programs that work for middle-class Americans doesn't necessarily translate into efficiently building and operating churches in other countries and cultures, even though the Gospel is the same.

It is not my intention to criticize the Senior Brethren who supervise the temporal affairs of the Church but whose primary role is to administer the spiritual well-being of the Church, and to teach and bear witness of Jesus Christ. I just think that maybe instead of trying to fit the Utah model into other cultures, we perhaps should put resources into novel things like maybe worldwide radio or TV stations to get our message and music out, and small congregations meeting in homes and perhaps supervised and taught over the internet by maybe a Bishop or Branch President in Utah etc. (Distributing a few laptops in each town where there are members would be much less of a draw on tithing funds than building or renting a meetinghouse I would think.)

But whatever, I'm absolutely confident that the Church will continue to grow and will not fail regardless of temporal challenges, because that's the sure stuff of prophesy...

[cinepro]

I think we should wait for the prospective convert to show 6 months of steady Church going, word of wisdom keeping, tithe paying, and the like before baptism.

I totally agree. Instead of "raising the bar" for missionaries, they should have raised it for converts. Or both.

[Cumorah3]

Honestly It's always easy to find reasons why someone left but shouldn't the effort be in finding what works at helping people grow in thier testimonies and knowledge of the gospel. There always seems to be many reasons why people leave or fall away but the reasons people stay seem to be fairly consistent. A friend, a responsibility and most importantly nurturing though the word of God. It may not be perfect but since people aren't that perfect I think it fits. I'm not saying ignore the negative but I am saying our energies would be better utilized on the positives and what has proven to work.

Thanks for unlurking Daniel, your views are as important as anyone else's.

A lot of years ago the Church did a study to try to determine why some members who went through the same Primary, Sunday School, youth etc. programs remained active in the Church when they became young adults, and others dropped into inactivity.

If I remember it correctly the difference was one of personal religious practices.

Those who by habit kneeled at their bedside each morning and night to communicate with Heavenly Father, blessed their food before eating, listened only to uplifting music when they were alone, etc. were the ones who stayed active.

How to apply that effectively in programs, I don't know, but surely the encouragement and example of parents at home would have a whole lot to do with it.

[Church Mouse]

Those who by habit kneeled at their bedside each morning and night to communicate with Heavenly Father, blessed their food before eating, listened only to uplifting music when they were alone, etc. were the ones who stayed active.

Like any statistic, though, that's not 100% reliable I was turbo-Mormon up until the week I told my wife I didn't believe, and quit the church. I prayed at least five times a day (first thing in the morning, over each meal, with my family before bedtime, with my spouse by the bedside, and usually had a personal prayer immediately after the one with my spouse). I read the Book of Mormon almost every day, though I admit it was often just a verse or two when I was deep in studying something else.

I guess by that measure the area I would have fallen down was musical selection. I've always loved all sorts of music, and listened to a very wide variety daily. I also compose and produce music, and the constraints of my gigs often dictated the style of music I'd write.

I think activity level is a combination of several factors:

* Spirituality. "I believe this is what God wants me to do, so I'll do it."

* Obligation. "Will I be missed or will something not get done if I don't show up?"

* Socialization. "I like soandso. I'll go so I can talk to him/her."

If any one of those three are missing, it's much easier to go inactive.

[Not quite me]

Like any statistic, though, that's not 100% reliable I was turbo-Mormon up until the week I told my wife I didn't believe, and quit the church. I prayed at least five times a day (first thing in the morning, over each meal, with my family before bedtime, with my spouse by the bedside, and usually had a personal prayer immediately after the one with my spouse). I read the Book of Mormon almost every day, though I admit it was often just a verse or two when I was deep in studying something else.

I guess by that measure the area I would have fallen down was musical selection. I've always loved all sorts of music, and listened to a very wide variety daily. I also compose and produce music, and the constraints of my gigs often dictated the style of music I'd write.

I think activity level is a combination of several factors:

* Spirituality. "I believe this is what God wants me to do, so I'll do it."

* Obligation. "Will I be missed or will something not get done if I don't show up?"

* Socialization. "I like soandso. I'll go so I can talk to him/her."

If any one of those three are missing, it's much easier to go inactive.

My experience was similar to yours, Church Mouse. My wife told me she had no idea that any of this was coming, and to be honest, it happened rather suddenly. I'm not sure I technically qualify as inactive, as I still attend with my family.

[Jaybear]

Those who by habit kneeled at their bedside each morning and night to communicate with Heavenly Father, blessed their food before eating, listened only to uplifting music when they were alone, etc. were the ones who stayed active.

Sorry, but this one has my nose in the air.

Do you have a source to show that there really was such a study?

[Dale]

I never really felt I could adjust to all the LDS standards, and committments. Every calling they ever gave me I failed at. So after being inactive for 30 years I finally removed my name from the church rolls.

[Cumorah3]

Sorry, but this one has my nose in the air.

Do you have a source to show that there really was such a study?

I don't have a source, I'm only going by memory. Perhaps someone else has that information.

I'd be interested in reading your explanation of why your nose is gaining length, er altitude. :-)

[PosterMania]

I never really felt I could adjust to all the LDS standards, and committments. Every calling they ever gave me I failed at. So after being inactive for 30 years I finally removed my name from the church rolls.

If you dont mind a personal question Dale why did you wait so long to remove your name from the rolls?

Was it due to unimportance of the process or a desire not to have renewed contact with church members delving into your inactivity?

Sometimes I think (personal opinion) names stay on rolls because of the opinion that members will renew unwanted contact.

My experience was similar to yours, Church Mouse. My wife told me she had no idea that any of this was coming, and to be honest, it happened rather suddenly. I'm not sure I technically qualify as inactive, as I still attend with my family.

mine was similar too. I left when I was at the highest of spiritual activity. In fact I was on the study abroad at BYU Jerusalem and I was active in callings within my ward.

I think this relates back again to the the opinion that those leaving the church have done so due to a failure (as in this case a failure to pray, study, listen to uplifting music etc).

[Jaybear]

I don't have a source, I'm only going by memory. Perhaps someone else has that information.

I'd be interested in reading your explanation of why your nose is gaining length, er altitude. :-)

It doesnt smell right for several reasons.

First, the LDS church is extremely opaque when it comes to membership issues. It doesnt seem in its nature to announce the findings of its research into why some people go inactive.

Second, the notion that one only listening to uplifting while alone is personal information that they could not get without polling ex members, again strikes me as unlikely.

Third, it has all the earmarks of a faith promoting rumor, designed to enhance a lesson on the importance of bringing prayer into our common lifes.

Admittedly, I could be wrong, and I am by nature skeptical.

If you dont mind a personal question Uncle D. why did you wait so long to remove your name from the rolls?

Was it due to unimportance of the process or a desire not to have renewed contact with church members delving into your inactivity?

FYI, Dale may be an uncle, but he is not Uncle Dale.

[PosterMania]

FYI, Dale may be an uncle, but he is not Uncle Dale.

LOL! Thanks! I got used to seeing Uncle Dale, and just didnt realize there were two Dales. I have corrected my question

[KevinG]

Sorry, but this one has my nose in the air.

Do you have a source to show that there really was such a study?

There was a study done by Wayne Dyer of the BYU Organizational Behavior facaulty (emeritus) back in the mid 1990s. The study asked local authorities to identify families that they would characterize as strong and active, then those families we're studied to find out what they had in common.

The findings found that common among those families were a few traits:

1. Regular personal and family prayer

2. Attempts at regular scripture study (not always successful, but the attempt was made)

3. full tithe paying

there were others but my memory sticks to those three in particular.

I don't know where this study can be found on line. I was a student in the OB department when it was being conducted and heard his preliminary findings.

[DanielMElliott]

So ultimately it's about choices and personal conviction. Conversion to the gospel isn't a "program". We can lay the groundwork(in fact we've been commanded to) by teaching, creating an atmosphere of love and helping people to feel the Spirit but the reality is ultimately if a person chooses to follow God it is thier own personal choice.

That 19 year old convert has the same opportunity to marry in the temple and to serve the Lord and to know the Gospel as the 19 year old who is third generation Mormon. I would completely disagree that new converts should wait six months or even six weeks. It must be an individual decision. Just like it would be immoral and wrong to make someone be baptized before they are ready it would also be wrong to make someone wait once they are. And whether it be 5 days or five years the individual should make that based on personal revelation. During my time as a fulltime missionary and Ward Mission Leader in three wards I never once saw someone get baptized who hadn't had a personal revelation. None got baptized "because of the missionaries". Though I did see some missionaries who tryed to "convince" people, they never succeeded. I also saw many established members try to claim that so-and-so was baptized to soon. My question is "says who?" If that person made the leap of faith then isn't it our job to support them, teach them, and help the grow in the gospel.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the requirements for baptism are repentence, a contrite spirit and a willingness to obey the commandments. In fact the "first" fruit of repentence baptism. In other words it's just the first step. It's not the last. I'll have to remember where I read that. I think it was some important book I read once.

Daniel

Dale,

I'm sorry you feel you failed at every calling. I would suggest you may have been using the wrong measuring stick. Heavenly Father doesn't usually measure success in the same way we would.

EDITED for Grammer, though I'm sure there are other mistakes.

[docrick]

Retention - why do so many Latter-day Saints go inactive,

and what can be done about it?

While recently serving a senior LDS mission in a foreign country, I saw as many as twelve adults baptized at a single service. Each of them bore a glowing testimony at the time. But I wonder how many of those twelve will be active members and faithful temple attenders ten years from now?

As a faithful Latter-day Saint diligently working on the "enduring" part, I acknowledge that there is a major problem with retention of members in the LDS Church.

The majority of members who go inactive (meaning no longer regularly attending sacrament meetings and/or no longer keeping the commandments and their baptismal covenants) are probably among those people who were perhaps baptized too soon by over-eager missionaries. A good seed was planted in their hearts and minds but for a variety of reasons they never really learn the fulness of the Gospel, or just can't stay away from former commandment breaking habits.

But, even more sadly from my point of view, there are some who stay in the Church a full year or more and take upon themselves sacred temple covenants, then fall away. Perhaps there are some participating on this board who are in that category.

This board of course is not a norm, but I'd be interested in hearing a few stories (keeping with board rules) about why such people fell away from the Church, what might have retained them in activity, what might bring them back, and suggestions as to what the Church might do better to retain its members in full activity longer.

Please be sure to address every one of those points when you tell your personal falling away story, and don't tell someone else's story. This is intended to be a positive constructive sincerely sharing thread, and not a bash, thanks.

The Cumorah Project has worldwide membership and retention statistics to research this subject.

http://www.cumorah.com/cgi-bin/db.cgi?Coun...ds=View+Records

Retention

While LDS activity rates in the United States are among the highest of any country in the world, less than half of members on the rolls are active. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism reports: 'Canada, the South Pacific, and the United States average between 40 percent and 50 percent [attendance at sacrament meeting].' (Source: Encyclopedia of Mormonism, edited by Daniel H. Ludlow, 1992, 4:1527.)

Marginal retention of new converts, and especially potential priesthood holders, remains a serious challenge:

'For the U.S. as a whole, only 59% of baptized males ever receive the Melchizedek Priesthood. In the South Pacific, the figure drops to 35%; in Great Britain, 29%. In Mexico (with almost 850,000 members) the figure is 19%; and in Japan, only 17% of the male members ever make it past the Aaronic Priesthood.' (source: Lowell C. Bennion and Lawrence Young, Dialogue, Spring 1996, p.19.)

The reasons are analogous to why so many baptists, catholics, lutherans etc are "inactive".

You'd be surprised at the "activity" rate of basically all religions. Basically the world gets in the way. Go to the movie theater on Sunday, or the Golf Course, or the Mall, or anywhere except Church. Guess where you will find the majority of people?

Hint: It ain't church

[Hammer]

Hungerying and thirstying

seeking and finding

eye single to the glory of God

ENDURING POWER: Charity (according to Moroni 7:47)

I believe if the church members were more actively engaged in gaining the image of Christ in their

countinance or in other words born again, there would be more retention. Too many conscentrate on

the day to day outward appearance and not enough on meditation, study and deep searching within

themselves.

Would that everyone sought God's kingdom and His righteousness first.

[PosterMania]

Hungerying and thirstying

I believe if the church members were more actively engaged in gaining the image of Christ in their

countinance or in other words born again, there would be more retention. Too many conscentrate on

the day to day outward appearance and not enough on meditation, study and deep searching within

themselves.

This would be true of all churches and their members