Who Said This? Work Out Your Salvation

[Theophilus]

(Theophilus, on the other hand, has shown time and time again that he knows nothing of LDS theology, and that nothing we ever say can shake him from this firmly held position.

[Rock]

We must do everything in our power to do the right thing, and to obey God's commandments.

I absolutely agree that this is the message in LDS churches. This is an impossible salvation.

[Theophilus]

(Duplicate post)

[Froggie]

Did any of you here watch the Exorcism of Emily Rose? I thought this scripture useage was interesting in the context of the movie. It would appear she was indeed "working" out her salvation. Her religion was catholicism.

Big green hugs,

Froggie

[grego]

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

aaronshaf wrote:

[ED500]

The LDS doctrine - NOT THE BIBLE - teaches that works is necessary for eternal salvation

Matthew 25:31-46 and the other verses always bursts that bubble. The fact that there are no sola fide verses in existence also does the trick. ECF history can do it also.

I guess the LDS doctrine and way of seeing things make them read the Bible (as a non-primary foundation of their faith) and understand it different from what is REALLY PREACHED BY the Apostles Paul, Peter and the rest in the New Testament.

Is this a fair assesment? Correct me if I am wrong.

You are wrong and you will never be able to provide an example of how you might be right. Feel free to provide an example (with verses to back you up) an we will correct it.

Well,

Tell me why I am wrong.....you can't even use the Bible to defend the "after all we can do.........."

[Rock]

Rock wrote: 

QUOTE 

We must do everything in our power to do the right thing, and to obey God's commandments.

I absolutely agree that this is the message in LDS churches. This is an impossible salvation. 

grego responded:

I don't understand. What would this be "an impossible salvation"?

Because nobody, save it be Christ Himself, has managed to do every right thing in his or her "power". Have you?

Well, if not, apparently Christ's blood can't cover you. It only covers you after you've done all you can possibly do. The standard is not to try to do everything. The standard is that you must do everything you can do.

Another big problem I see with this statement is that you would be relying on your own personal power. Is it by our own power or is it by the power of Almighty God that we work?

[KevinG]

Because nobody, save it be Christ Himself, has managed to do every right thing in his or her "power". Have you?

No ...and that is why we need a Savior.

[KevinG]

FYI- for those who keep insisting that we place works before faith... I would like to introduce something very basic to you that was missed in your extensive research of LDS doctrine. Perhaps you missed it because it is hidden way down in the most basic statement of our faith.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Articles of Faith #4

(emphasis for those who missed it the first 100 times)

[freakin a man]

FYI- for those who keep insisting that we place works before faith... I would like to introduce something very basic to you that was missed in your extensive research of LDS doctrine.  Perhaps you missed it because it is hidden way down in the most basic statement of our faith.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Articles of Faith #4

(emphasis for those who missed it the first 100 times)

Yeah but we have to remember that the same people who forget that can't seem to ever read 2 Nephi 25:23 correctly.

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

They pretend it just says

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that we are saved after all we can do."

[kawikadave]

From a devotional Robert Millet gave at BYU:

The theological debate over whether we are saved by grace or by works is a fruitless argument that is much "like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary" (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, p. 129). Latter-day Saints have often been critical of those who stress salvation by grace alone, and we have often been criticized for a type of works-

righteousness. The gospel is in fact a gospel covenant--a two-way promise. The Lord agrees to do for us what we could never do for ourselves--to forgive our sins, to lift our burdens, to renew our souls and re-create our nature, to raise us from the dead and qualify us for glory hereafter. At the same time, we promise to do what we can do--receive the ordinances of salvation, love and serve one another (see Mosiah 18:8

[Beowulf]

That's a nice addition, Kawikadave, thank you.

It reminds me of yet another facet of LDS understanding of grace that has not been touched upon here... Each Sunday, our main reason for attending Church is to partake of the Sacrament. This is to remind us of Christ, and to bring him into our lives, each week. Everything else that we do in our Sunday meetings is peripheral. This ritual is thus a reminder of God's grace in our everyday lives, as Robert Millet says that we should be doing. We LDS do, therefore, keep Grace in front of us constantly.

The complaint that "after all we can do" is not Biblical, I freely acknowledge. The Book of Mormon was not totally cribbed from the Bible, you know . (It actually does have some phrasings that improve upon and clarify to a greater extent than what we can obtain from the New Testament.) But if there is a parallel phrase in the New Testament that comes close to this in intent, I nominate the phrase at the head of this thread... "work out your salvation with fear and trembling".

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion (even Theophilus ). I have learned some things.

Beowulf

PS Theophilus, don't take it too personally. You are just too easy to needle...

I promise I will mind my manners from now on...

[kawikadave]

I recently watched a DVD ("A Mormon and An Evangelical In Conversation") of one of Robert Millet's and Greg Johnson's barn-storming discussions about how evangelicals and mormons can improve their dialogue. The issue of faith vs. works was discussed extensively.

A story that Bro. Millet related was especially striking. One of the evangelical pastors asked him (I'm paraphrasing as best as I remember):

"How would you justify your entrance into heaven when brought before the judgement bar. Why should God let you in to heaven?"

Bro Millet thought for quite a while before answering. So did I as I watched the DVD. What answer would I give?

He finally responded by saying... (again I'm paraphrasing to the best of my ability)

"I request entrance into heaven solely on the merits and grace of Jesus Christ, my Saviour."

How else could we try to prove our worthiness? Our efforts to keep God's commandments would seem very pitiful and insufficient in that moment. I thought that was very striking to hear and certainly should remind Christians of any faith that we have to rely on Christ to save us, to strengthen us, and to refine us.

[rhinomelon]

A few questions in general:

Why would one need to feel reverence and awe for God, if God were already in him? Wouldn't that be a natural feeling? Also, is that feeling constant? So if we don't have that feeling, has anything changed? Can one do good without that feeling/ reason?

Good questions! One thing to keep in mind is the constant battle of the flesh and the spirit. Paul explores this extensively in Romans, although he mentions in other epistles as well. The fact that our flesh is still fighting against sin means that we will never have "natural" feelings of reverence and awe for God all of the time. In my experience, for example, the feelings are the most fickle of my "spiritual barometers". Most of the time, I depend on the commitment I've made to God and His commandments, and depend on my faith that no matter how I feel, God is at work as He has promised.

Not only is it possible to do good without the feelings driving you on, I firmly believe that it is absolutely necessary. Otherwise your works will wither.

So is grace the only requirement of salvation?

Grace and faith are the only prerequisites to salvation. But works are required of those who are saved. Not only are they required, but they are produced by the work of the Holy Spirit within the individual and the individual cooperates. But they are the result of salvation, not the preceding cause of it. After all, the New Testament never speaks of those who are unsaved or outside of the church as being indwelled or guided by the Holy Spirit. Rather, the Holy Spirit is consistently spoken of as a guide and presence with those who are already saved, who have already demonstrated faith in Christ.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Articles of Faith #4

No one is denying that LDS don't require faith. If the above Article simply stopped with the first and second principle, we would disagree on very little. However, in LDS thought, all these things are necessary for salvation/exaltation, as well as other items that are not found in the Articles of Faith. The problem, in essence, is not that the LDS do not require faith (they obviously do), but that they add on too much in addition to faith.

Take care, everyone

[Zeta-Flux]

Grace and faith are the only prerequisites to salvation. But works are required of those who are saved. Not only are they required, but they are produced by the work of the Holy Spirit within the individual and the individual cooperates.

I like that.

[rhinomelon]

For those who might have missed it, I just wanted to call attention to a quote from Millet's address posted by kawikadave:

"True grace," as one non-LDS writer has suggested, "is more than just a giant freebie, opening the door to heaven in the sweet by and by, but leaving us to wallow in sin in the bitter here and now. Grace is God presently at work in our lives" (John F. MacArthur, Jr., Faith Works: The Gospel According to the Apostles [Dallas: Word Publishing, 1993], p. 32).

This position is quite common among evangelicals. "Cheap grace" frustrates most evangelicals, probably more than it does LDS!

[KevinG]

Rhino this:

the Holy Spirit is consistently spoken of as a guide and presence with those who are already saved, who have already demonstrated faith in Christ.

Could be an entirely orthodox LDS description of why we do this:

Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Which is why I'm puzzled that you would say this:

If the above Article simply stopped with the first and second principle, we would disagree on very little. However, in LDS thought, all these things are necessary for salvation/exaltation, as well as other items that are not found in the Articles of Faith.

[rhinomelon]

Rhino this:

QUOTE 

the Holy Spirit is consistently spoken of as a guide and presence with those who are already saved, who have already demonstrated faith in Christ. 

Could be an entirely orthodox LDS description of why we do this:

QUOTE 

Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There are some important differences. For one, the gift of the Holy Spirit in the LDS view depends on the person who is laying on the hands, which makes the gift dependent, not really on God or on the recipient, but on the mediating human being. For another difference, the gift of the Holy Ghost, in the LDS context, is prior to and is necessary for salvation. I would submit the the biblical testimony on the subject belies such an interpretation.

Which is why I'm puzzled that you would say this:

QUOTE 

If the above Article simply stopped with the first and second principle, we would disagree on very little. However, in LDS thought, all these things are necessary for salvation/exaltation, as well as other items that are not found in the Articles of Faith.

Can one spend eternity with God the Father without receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands by someone with the proper authority? That is an important issue. We both agree that the Holy Spirit is a companion and guide for the believer, but we definitely disagree on when that relationship is begun. For me, it is started at the moment of conversion/justification, while for you I believe it would be prior to salvation, and a requirement for salvation. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken!

Take care, everyone

[Theophilus]

There are some important differences. For one, the gift of the Holy Spirit in the LDS view depends on the person who is laying on the hands, which makes the gift dependent, not really on God or on the recipient, but on the mediating human being.

I assume from the fact that you are a student of church history, that you are familiar with the distinction between ex opere operantis and ex opere operato?

Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.

Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.

There is no new thing under the sun.

Theophilus

[Beowulf]

At last we have come around to the true difference between LDS and evangelicals (and I would say the RCC and EVs, and Greek Orthodox and EVs, etc.).

This is the belief in a priesthood of God that mediates between God and man.

LDS trace a priesthood lineage back to the apostles, to Jesus, and then to God the Father. We are thus connected to God in a personal, family way that no EVs can claim. But to EVs, this is not necessary, since personal revelation from God is sufficient.

LDS, on the other hand, confirm this faith and repentence of the person with baptism (surely you do not reject this as unbiblical, since even Jesus accepted it!), and then laying on of hands for the Holy Spirit (also Biblical, since Peter and friends did this).

In other words, we consider all these steps to be indeed essential for salvation. And the last two steps require the intercession of a person with authority to do so.

Here is our real disagreement, I think. Not over grace vs. works as such.

Do you agree?

Beowulf

[rhinomelon]

Here is our real disagreement, I think. Not over grace vs. works as such.

Do you agree? 

I would agree to a large extent. The issue of authority is a big one that really lies behind all others. But the issue of grace and works is still important in its own right. For instance, the authority LDS claim could be used to perform ordinances that are seen as a result of salvation, and not a prerequisite, without doing damage to the LDS concept of authority.

I assume from the fact that you are a student of church history, that you are familiar with the distinction between ex opere operantis and ex opere operato? 

Aside from the fact I get them mixed up in my head, yeah. But that is a relevant distinction here, I agree.

And soon the Latin will not be so confusing. I just got Wheelock's Latin with the workbook for my birthday on Wednesday...

[Rock]

Happy Happy Birthday, Rhino! I hope that new wife of yours baked you a triple layer cake or something.

[rhinomelon]

Happy Happy Birthday, Rhino! I hope that new wife of yours baked you a triple layer cake or something.

Thanks Rock! The actual birthday celebration is this weekend; Wednesday was packed with stuff, including the weekly youth group I help lead. The party starts tonight with some Greek festival dinner at the Greek Orthodox Church in the area. I'm going to talk to the priest there to see if I can take some of my youth to a Sunday service.

And I definitely don't need a triple-layer cake. All I want is angel food cake by the panful, and enough strawberries and cool whip to make me sick for a week...

[Calm]

which basically sets up a works-based system to earn exaltation. The temple system is works based, as the issue is always worthiness, instead of God's grace and how God sees the sinner who believes in Christ. Without the temple, nobody gets exalted. It's that simple.

But the temple ordinances solely exist as a way for God's grace to be shared with us. It's not so much about worthiness as about preparation...there are many worthy people that aren't prepared to enter the temple. The temple is about preparing us to take more steps toward God, it is not about running up brownie points to move to the next level of exaltation. Even if we attend the temple a thousand times, if we do not learn from our experience and understand the teachings we receive there, we are still at the bottom rung of the ladder.

And now to quote one of my favourite JS's teachings:

[grego]

Some of this is a little like: is the egg first, or the chicken? to me.

(From my paper on this) I think the thesis of the BoM is:

1 Nephi 1:20

And when the Jews heard these things they were angry with him; yea, even as with the prophets of old, whom they had cast out, and stoned, and slain; and they also sought his life, that they might take it away. But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance.

There are a few places where this is paramount in the text. The cry or pleading, "Have mercy", causes the following events:

allowing Lehi to feel the love of God;

the conversion of the people of King Benjamin;

the conquering of Amlici by Alma;

the conversion of Alma the Younger;

the conversion of Zeezrom;

the conversion of king Lamoni, his wife, his father (the Anti-Nephi-Lehies).

In fact, Amulek teaches:

Alma 34:18

Yea, cry unto him for mercy; for he is mighty to save.

If you see the conversion stories of these people, the change of heart came when they asked for, and received, God's mercy--before baptism, and before receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost--not after/ until. However, that was not the end of it/ enough. The works they now had to do, which God put in them, commenced with/ included baptism and receving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Had Alma the younger died during his "coma", where would he have gone?

So, when does salvation come? From my LDS POV: when one repents and receives God mercy; when one's ordinances are complete; when one does the works; when one continues to repent and stay in God's grace; when one endures to the end, faithful; when God makes it possible/ "gives the go" for us to progress after this life; when God allows us to enter his kingdom/ saves at the final end, so to say. (And maybe one or two other times, too, that I might have forgotten.)

(And, in fact, this is what every investigator should experience--though far too many don't. But let's not stop at the converts. When I was teaching the Young Men, I asked 11 to tell me, "How do you repent?" Many started giving me a list of steps. STOP. No, "How do YOU repent?" Silence. Finally, a new convert told his experience of repentance. I do agree with many EV's that many LDS don't truly know about God's grace, because we never really ask for it. Look especially at the conversion effect on the queen of the Lamanites (Lamoni's wife)--is that WEIRD or what?? That's so EV it's amazing.)