Why is polygamy such a hot-button topic?

[Zakuska]

Why is Polygamy such a hot button topic?

...Because the green thumbs of all the women involved. (Must be all the estrogin)

<ducks and runs>

[liz3564]

Why is Polygamy such a hot button topic?

...Because the green thumbs of all the women involved. (Must be all the estrogin)

<ducks and runs>

Zak...we need to email your wife. You REALLY need to be reeled in!

My green thumb is turning black and squashing you before you run away!

[alannasaunt]

Dealing with the "choice" issue...at least temporally...on the thread that got closed, someone said Brigham was very liberal giving unhappy PM women divorces. They also discussed a speech BY gave essentially giving the women two weeks to decide to live the law or divorce their husbands. The poster used this to say that the women who remained, did so by choice.

I couldn't agree with this. My first impression when I read about BY's speech was to compare it to the man who would drive his date to an isolated, remote location, then tell her to put-out or get-out. What were these women supposed to do? Where were they supposed to go?

I'm going to post a short reply because I have to go out soon.

Divorce was always an option for plural wives not just during that two week period mentioned by Brigham Young. Fact is many women who did seek a divorce remarried as -- plural wives. Fact is that even when isolation was broken (railroad was built), or means were provided to make it easy for women to leave a plural marriage (for example protestants built a huge mansion in Salt Lake to house plural wives who wanted to "escape"), women did not leave Utah en masse nor did they seek refuge in "homes for plural wives."

I have been a member of this Church for forty-nine years, and am one of the women who have been tried and tested, and the angels will bear witness of that today, I am a stronger advocate of "Mormonism" and the celestial order of marriage, and rejoice more exceedingly in the goodness of God to me and my house than ever before. I know that this holy order would prove a blessing to all who would receive and practice it in the way that He designed.

- Helen Mar (Kimball Smith) Whitney, Mormon women's protest; an appeal for freedom, justice and equal rights. Great mass meeting, Salt Lake City, Utah, Saturday, March 6, 1888. pp 49-53.

Yes, I understand that divorce was always available. The speech was in response to complaining (by both men and women) about the principle.

As someone who is divorced, I can tell you, it is not a simple matter of being unhappy and then deciding to leave. There are social, family, religious and economic pressures to think about. There is the welfare of the children to think about. And that is in today's society. I can imagine it would have been many times more difficult in that day.

For those women who remarried as PWs, those marriages should have had a different dynamic. They presumably would no longer have been virgins, so the remarriage would have been more of a support arrangement. If not, well I'm not sure they were following the rules.

[alannasaunt]

Why is Polygamy such a hot button topic?

...Because the green thumbs of all the women involved. (Must be all the estrogin)

<ducks and runs>

Zak,

You can run, buddy, but you can't hide. We women are super-sleuths.

[Zakuska]

Speaking of Green thumbs turning black...

Isn't that what happens when you get Gaingrene? or is that frost bite?

I think my Polygomist G-G-Grandma had a frost bite remedy that BY gave her and the rest of the Relief Society which included gun powder as one of the main ingredients. Or was that for canker sores?

[alannasaunt]

Speaking of Green thumbs turning black...

Isn't that what happens when you get Gaingrene? or is that frost bite?

I think my Polygomist G-G-Grandma had a frost bite remedy that BY gave her and the rest of the Relief Society which included gun powder as one of the main ingredients. Or was that for canker sores?

ay carumba (however ya spell it)

that remedy didn't include a match did it?

[Zakuska]

I think the gun powder provided the zinc needed to make the paste. Isnt that one of the active ingredients in todays canker sore medicines.

See... our polygamist ancestors weren't so barbaric and sheet happy as we have supposed.

[onelowerlight]

Alanna -

only a very narrow minded person would judge your faith to be weak because of the struggle you are having right now. The most pertinent thing I can share is something I posted on an old topic: http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...05entry307400

[Zakuska]

Ladies... Just as an observation:

Yesterday, the subject of Da Vinci Movie came up here in the office. Some how Polygamy came up just after this... Several programmers who are working on church projects (they all are LDS) all made the same comment all at pretty much the same time. "Im happy with one", "My Hands are full with Just one". "I can barely provide for the one I have."

So its not like its a conspiracey to see who (which men) can die with the largest Harem. I think it embodies the ability to be able to love all equally, in a communal sort of way. Yes, there is the one intimate relation that is only betweeen a husband and wife amd that leads to all sorts of dynamics. Im just glad I dont have to deal with all that.

[alannasaunt]

Alanna -

only a very narrow minded person would judge your faith to be weak because of the struggle you are having right now. The most pertinent thing I can share is something I posted on an old topic: http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...05entry307400

onelowerlight,

I read your link. As I said earlier, you're presence in this thread has been a gift.

BTW, how did you choose your name?

[onelowerlight]

QUOTE (onelowerlight @ May 17 2006, 01:06 PM)

Alanna -

only a very narrow minded person would judge your faith to be weak because of the struggle you are having right now. The most pertinent thing I can share is something I posted on an old topic: http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...05entry307400 

onelowerlight,

I read your link. As I said earlier, you're presence in this thread has been a gift. 

BTW, how did you choose your name?

http://www.lds.org/churchmusic/detailmusic...chsubseqend=ZZZ

Before my mission, I read John Groberg's "The Other Side of Heaven." (that was also one of my all time favorite movies) In the book, in one of the chapters he shares how his experience in Tonga led him to understand several of the hymns differently, including this one, "Brightly Beams Our Father's Mercy." The whole hymn is basically an analogy to our role as rank-and-file members in leading people to the gospel. I shared this hymn and John Groberg's explanation of it several times as a missionary as a spiritual thought, and when I came back, I figured it would make a catchy screen name.

[alannasaunt]

I feel that my concerns are lightweight compared to Allanasaunt, so I'm truly glad that this forum has been able to help.

liz,

You finally said something that I think I disagree with.

Your concerns are not lightweight compared to mine, because if you were called to this, you would have the heartache of a first wife. I believe it is the first wives who did/will suffer the most.

[liz3564]

I feel that my concerns are lightweight compared to Allanasaunt, so I'm truly glad that this forum has been able to help. 

liz,

You finally said something that I think I disagree with.

Your concerns are not lightweight compared to mine, because if you were called to this, you would have the heartache of a first wife. I believe it is the first wives who did/will suffer the most.

Awww....even when you disagree with me you're sweet!

I haven't had to endure the pain of a divorce as you have, so there is definitely a different dimension to the view that you share and where you are coming from.

Our trials are all different. I'll concede that much.

There are some other personal reasons why this principle is so difficult for me to accept. I may be brave enough to share them in this forum. We'll see.

Again, I am truly grateful for the reverent attitude toward this topic, and how we have all been able to go beyond being civil. I think we have broken new ground and transcended into really caring about helping each other while sharing very different and very personal views.

[onelowerlight]

Let's start a thread that's all about how awesome this thread is...

Seriously, I've been thinking about what Alanna said about plural marriage being a unique trial in that it never ends. IS it truly a never-ending trial? As individuals, we are constantly changing, constantly growing, gaining experience, changing opinions, etc. Who knows but that those for whom plural marriage is now a terrible trial can't change (in this life or the next) to the point where it becomes something not only acceptable, but a source of joy. After all, none of us is the same person we were yesterday.

In this sense, there will be an end to the trial of plural marriage.

[beastie]

Since there was some form of polyandry in the early days of the church, I think that the idea of women having more than one husband in the CK should be discussed as a serious possibility as well. I noticed a brief mention of this earlier, but unless I missed some posts, it doesn't seem to have been followed up on.

How would both the men and women here feel about women having more than one husband in the CK?

[onelowerlight]

Beastie, please give us a reference.

[beastie]

A reference for what? The polyandry?

This site just lists his wives. If you click on individual names, you'll find out which ones already had husbands, like Zina Jacobs and Mary Lightner.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/6552/wives.html

[KevinG]

Since there was some form of polyandry in the early days of the church, I think that the idea of women having more than one husband in the CK should be discussed as a serious possibility as well. I noticed a brief mention of this earlier, but unless I missed some posts, it doesn't seem to have been followed up on.

How would both the men and women here feel about women having more than one husband in the CK?

Some of us did respond. I just can't remember which page. Anything is a possibility.

[beastie]

Some of us did respond. I just can't remember which page. Anything is a possibility.

I think I probably saw those responses - there just weren't many, and I think it's an idea that deserves as much attention as the possibility of plural wives.

Women in the LDS church often have to find a way to deal with this possibility, and all the complicated feelings that arouses. But really, men in the LDS church, in fairness, should be dealing with it, as well - sharing their wife with another husband.

[Nighthawke]

Beastie, please give us a reference.

Sam Katich wrote a paper for FAIR on polyandry:

A Tale of Two Marriage Systems: Perspectives on Polyandry and Joseph Smith

[Dale]

With the polyandry cases unlike Todd Comptom I saw absolutely no evidence that any of the wives were unfaithful to the earthly husbands. I am aware of purported children of Joseph Smith via plural wives and was not satisfied Todd Comptom had a case. So I decided these were platonic sealings meant to raise up children to Joseph Smith spiritually via adoption.

[Nighthawke]

With the polyandry cases unlike Todd Comptom I saw absolutely no evidence that any of the wives were unfaithful to the earthly husbands. I am aware of purported children of Joseph Smith via plural wives and was not satisfied Todd Comptom had a case. So I decided these were platonic sealings meant to raise up children to Joseph Smith spiritually via adoption.

Dale I asked you a question earlier but maybe you missed it or perhaps you chose not to answer it? I noted earlier that the Community of Christ has NO temples. No temple work is done either for the dead or for the living. What are the marriage vows for the CofC? 'Til death do you part?

[liz3564]

With the polyandry cases unlike Todd Comptom I saw absolutely no evidence that any of the wives were unfaithful to the earthly husbands. I am aware of purported children of Joseph Smith via plural wives and was not satisfied Todd Comptom had a case. So I decided these were platonic sealings meant to raise up children to Joseph Smith spiritually via adoption.

There was a thread on the Fellowship Board on this topic, but I think it may have been deleted. I can't find it. There was some really good references on it. Dale, you made some really good contributions on that thread as well.

If anyone finds it, post the link. It's a good cross-reference to some of the things we're talking about here.

Seriously, I've been thinking about what Alanna said about plural marriage being a unique trial in that it never ends. IS it truly a never-ending trial? As individuals, we are constantly changing, constantly growing, gaining experience, changing opinions, etc. Who knows but that those for whom plural marriage is now a terrible trial can't change (in this life or the next) to the point where it becomes something not only acceptable, but a source of joy. After all, none of us is the same person we were yesterday.

In this sense, there will be an end to the trial of plural marriage.

Onelowerlight, this is an interesting way to perceive this. I'll comment more on it tomorrow when I've had time to think about it, and my mind isn't as fuzzy. It's way too late to start an intelligent dialogue now.

'Night, all!

[beastie]

With the polyandry cases unlike Todd Comptom I saw absolutely no evidence that any of the wives were unfaithful to the earthly husbands. I am aware of purported children of Joseph Smith via plural wives and was not satisfied Todd Comptom had a case. So I decided these were platonic sealings meant to raise up children to Joseph Smith spiritually via adoption.

Aside from the fact that it would be very difficult to find that type of evidence*, that doesn't prove that polyandry won't be practiced in the CK. Perhaps Joseph just didn't have time to full implement the practice. After all, if he had died earlier, what evidence would we have that he had actually married Fanny Alger, instead of just having an affair?

And why didn't Joseph just have the children sealed to him, btw?

I think it's odd that, in general (with some exceptions like dad0f7) people in the church will struggle to accept plural wives, but instead of struggling to accept polyandry, struggle to find a way to eliminate it as even a possibility.

*On her deathbed, Sylvia Sessions did tell her daughter, Josephine, that Joseph Smith was her real father, not Windsor Lyon.

[KevinG]

I think it's odd that, in general (with some exceptions like dad0f7) people in the church will struggle to accept plural wives, but instead of struggling to accept polyandry, struggle to find a way to eliminate it as even a possibility.

I'm gonna sound like I'm arguing with myself here, but I think Polyandry is a much less likely scenario. I have sought to understand how my wife might feel about polygyny, so I am empathetic, but I do think it's more likely because of the biological differences, and the purpose of the Principle being (as I understand it) to increase righteous posterity.

I haven't eliminated it as a possibility, but it does seem less likely given the rules governing sealings, and the purpose of plural marriage as defined by our doctrines in the first place.