Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah

[poulsenll]

In your opinion, which of the following sites best fit the description of the Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah?

Mormon 6:4 "it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountans; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites"

Mormon 6:11 "did behold on the morrow ... from the top of the hill Cumorah"

The white line in each image represents a distance of 5 miles.

New York Hill Cumorah

http://poulsenll.org/Newyork.jpg

Cerro Bernal - Ainsworth

http://poulsenll.org/bernal.jpg

Cerro Vigia - Sorenson

http://poulsenll.org/vigia.jpg

Tepetzintla

http://poulsenll.org/tepetzintla.jpg

[Freedom]

oh, cool pictures. I know which one it was but if I tell you I will have to kill you. Sorry.

[cksalmon]

See, now you went and left out "Nowhere," so I can't vote.

Have you read Olsen's argument for a Malay site?

[poulsenll]

The question is not which is the correct location or whether the Hill cumorah is in mesoamerica.

The question is, after looking at the images and comparing them to the textual description in the BoM, which in your opinion is the best fit to the description.

The location of the images and the actual location of the Hill Cumorah is irrevelant to the question asked.

Even CK, who wants to vote for nowhere, can come to some conclusion.

Besides, CK, an image of nowhere would not fit at all.

This is not just another poll about the location of the Hill Cumorah, it is an exercise in critical thinking.

[gukumatz]

bump

[The Dude]

It seems like it would be very difficult to reach the top of any of those features except the one in New York. I voted for the first.

[Tchild2]

Given the "evidence", the hill Cumorah logically appears to have taken place in upper state New York.

Lets look at the evidence:

1) The physical plates were found in a hill called Cumorah, in New York even!

2) We have the very prophet who found the plates and translating them....er, something along those lines finding an actual warrior in the vicinity by the name of Zelph. His bones were found in a neighboring state and we know according to the Journal of Wilford Woodruff that: Zelph was a large thick set man and a man of God he was a warrior under the great prophet that was known from the hill cumorah to the Rocky mountains - The above knowledge Joseph received in a vision.

Why bother with an ambigious BoM geography when we have superior contemporary revelations showing activity in that region and the best evidence; the plates themselves.

[Uncle Dale]

the Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah?

Far Above Ontario's Waters

Far above Ontario's waters

With its waves of blue

Stands our noble Hill Cumorah

Glorious to view

Lift the chorus

Speed it onward

Loud her praises tell

Hail to thee our Hill Cumorah

Hail, all hail, our Hill!

Far above the busy humming

Of the Gentile throng

Reared against the arch of heaven

Looks she proudly on.

Lift the chorus

Speed it onward

Loud her praises tell

Hail to thee our Hill Cumorah

Hail, all hail, our Hill!

Sentry-like o'er lake and valley

Towers her regal form

Branch and ward forever keeping

Braving time and storm

So through clouds of doubt and stupor

Gleams her beacon light

Fault and error clear revealing

Choosing alway' The Right

To the glory of our founder

Rise our temple walls

Missionaries pay equal tribute

Whene'er duty calls

When the arrows swiftly fleeting

Anti-Mormons fling

All the Saints will e'er hail her

Cumorah's Hill we sing!

UD

[Chris Smith]

1) The Book of Mormon seems to indicate that a larger trove of plates/writings is buried in the Hill Cumorah than what Joseph Smith found in his upstate New York hill, so I think I actually agree with the infamous Two Cumorahs Theory, despite my non-Mormon status.

2) The facts that the hill in New York got its name from someone other than Joseph (I think Oliver was the first one to call it that) and that Joseph himself didn't call it "Cumorah" until the 1842 publication of Section 128 (by which time he had probably just resigned himself to calling it what everybody else was calling it) indicate to me that Joseph may never have had the New York hill in mind when he wrote about the Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon.

3) I think that Vernal Holley's analysis of Book of Mormon geography, which makes Canada the Land Northward and New York the Land Southward has much to commend it, particularly given the similarity of BoM place names and modern New York place names.

4) The Zelph story tops a list of anecdotal evidences for a North American BoM setting.

Conclusion: It is very possible that the hill Joseph Smith intended when he wrote about "Hill Cumorah" the Book of Mormon is actually located in Canada.

OTOH, D&C 128:20 is a canonized revelation that identifies the hill in New York as Cumorah, so I'd think that the TBMs would take that option a little more seriously.

[Cumorah3]

The question is not  which is the correct location or whether the Hill cumorah is in mesoamerica.

The question is, after looking at the images and comparing them to the textual description in the BoM, which in your opinion is the best fit to the description.

The location of the images and the actual location of the Hill Cumorah is irrevelant to the question asked.

Even CK, who wants to vote for nowhere, can come to some conclusion.

Besides, CK, an image of nowhere would not fit at all.

This is not just another poll about the location of the Hill Cumorah, it is an exercise in critical thinking.

.

.

Oh come on now, don't take the fun out of it, most of us are not scholars and we don't even want to think about anything at all in the summertime, let alone undertake "an excercise in critical thinking."

Can't we talk about the possibility that the hill's in Mesoamerica?

I'll assume he said something like "Oh all right, go ahead then" and I'll post the following quote from the home page of the Mormon Sites Website:

Statements about Cumorah by BYU Professor of Anthropology

Below are a few excerpts from an excellent article by John E. Clark, Director of BYU's New World Archaeological Foundation (NWAF) facility in Chiapas, Mexico:

"If any place merits archaeological attention, it is Cumorah. The very word elicits a series of empirical questions that can only be addressed through archaeology."

"....before archaeology can reveal Cumorah

[Warship]

Doesnt it say the hill was in a land of many waters. The only one that seems to have multiple bodies of water (at least from the pics) is Cerro Bernal.

So I voted on that but I have no real idea. I don't believe it was in New york at all.

People espouse that almost solely based on where JS found the plates. As CK pointed out JS didnt even suggest this.

Everyone always talks about a hike to New York as the only alternative. There is no indication that Moroni must be the one to do this. It could have happened over generations or....

"35] Yea, we have hid up our treasures and they have slipped away from us, because of the curse of the land.

[36] O that we had repented in the day that the word of the Lord came unto us; for behold the land is cursed, and all things are become slippery, and we cannot hold them."

...I don't see why God could not move them himself when he can do the above. There is more examples than that of slippery treasure.

[poulsenll]

Oh come on now, don't take the fun out of it, most of us are not scholars and we don't even want to think about anything at all in the summertime, let alone undertake "an excercise in critical thinking." 

Can't we talk about the possibility that the hill's in Mesoamerica?

I'll assume he said something like "Oh all right, go ahead then" and I'll post the following quote from the home page of the Mormon Sites Website:

So, where's the original Hill Cumorah then??

You dont need to be a scholar to think critically. All you need is a modicom of intellegence and a desire to study out the evidence in the scriptures on your own. Mormon gives a description of the Hill and Land of Cumorah. He also describes the battle that took place there. As Clark so apptly points out, no such battle ever took place around the New York hill during Book of Mormon times. However,there may have been battles by more recent occupants. The finding of arrowheads and the remains of mounds built by the Mississippians gave support to the early saints belief that the Book of Mormon culture was to be found in the United States. This culture , however has been dated to a time significantly later then that of the Book of Mormon.

It was in one of these mounds that Joseph Smith discovered the Zelph skeleton and identified it as the remains of a righteois Lamanite general. Since the Book of Mormon records the movement of righteous Lamanites into the Land northward. It is not unreasonab than the remains of one of their descendents would be found among the Moundmakers.

Cumorah3,

I dont mind you putting words in my mouth but I would more likely have said "Have fun and speculate all you want but back it up with personal study in addition to quotes from other sources."

Larry P

[poulsenll]

Doesnt it say the hill was in a land of many waters. The only one that seems to have multiple bodies of water (at least from the pics) is Cerro Bernal.

Warship

The actual description Mormon 6:4 is "..and it was in a land of many waters, rivers and fountains." Both Bernal and Tepetzintla are in the Land of Tampico which is characterized by many waters and rivers. Tepetzintla has at least 6 rivers with their headwaters(fountains) within the confines of the hill. I believe Bernal also has some rivers which originate on its slopes but I am not sure, never having been there.

Larry P

[Warship]

Thanks Larry,

But Bernal looks more like a hill that stands out on its own where as Tepetzintla looks like just one in the crowd.

What's your opinion?

[Warship]

Thanks Larry,

But Bernal looks more like a hill that stands out on its own where as Tepetzintla looks like just one in the crowd.

What's your opinion?

[Warship]

Thanks Larry,

But Bernal looks more like a hill that stands out on its own where as Tepetzintla looks like just one in the crowd.

What's your opinion?

[Cumorah3]

You dont need to be a scholar to think critically. All you need is a modicom of intellegence and a desire to study out the evidence in the scriptures on your own.Larry P

.

In my case it's finding that "modicum of intelligence" that has me worried.

But I promise to keep on reading the Book of Mormon...

Here's a link to an interesting FARMS article about there being no arrowheads at all found near the hill called "Cumorah" at Palmyra, New York.

The evidence just keeps on building that there's more than one Hill Cumorah.

Contrast the lack of any artifacts at all near the New York hill with my own personal experience just scratching the surface near the hill Jerry Ainsworth believes is the original Hill Cumorah, and finding all kinds of pottery shards, figurines, and even what would be called today a "pestle".

But how do you prove to the world that you've found the original Hill Cumorah??

[nana]

The only Cumorah that should matter is the one that JS said it was, the one in New York. I guess I am confused as to why there are questions of more than one.

Would someone please explain (again I'm sure, as I am sure that it has been discussed before) why there might be more?

Thanks in advance.

[Cumorah3]

The only Cumorah that should matter is the one that JS said it was, the one in New York. I guess I am confused as to why there are questions of more than one.

Would someone please explain (again I'm sure, as I am sure that it has been discussed before) why there might be more?

Thanks in advance.

.

I know, I need to back off and let the person who started this thread have his say, but since I'm here right now...

It is my understanding that Joseph Smith never did call the hill near Palmyra, New York "Cumorah". Someone else started that and it perpetuated through the early days of the Church to the point where it just became tradition that the New York Cumorah was the final battle place of the Nephites.

In my estimation it's a moot point anyway because there are many geographic locations with the same name. For example do a google search of "Palmyra" and you'll find that there's a Palmyra in New York, Pennsylvania, Syria, etc.

That's how I see it, but that's certainly an important observation.

[nana]

The only Cumorah that should matter is the one that JS said it was, the one in New York. I guess I am confused as to why there are questions of more than one.

Would someone please explain (again I'm sure, as I am sure that it has been discussed before) why there might be more?

Thanks in advance.

.

I know, I need to back off and let the person who started this thread have his say, but since I'm here right now...

It is my understanding that Joseph Smith never did call the hill near Palmyra, New York "Cumorah". Someone else started that and it perpetuated through the early days of the Church to the point where it just became tradition that the New York Cumorah was the final battle place of the Nephites.

In my estimation it's a moot point anyway because there are many geographic locations with the same name. For example do a google search of "Palmyra" and you'll find that there's a Palmyra in New York, Pennsylvania, Syria, etc.

That's how I see it, but that's certainly an important observation.

Thank you for explaining that to me.

So if you will answer this:

JS went to the hill near his home to get the plates. The plates were buried there after the last great fight of the Nephites, so in essence are they (whoever they are) saying that it was that hill near his home where the last great fight was, or did he travel to one of the other Cumorah's to get the plates.?

Again, thank you in advance.

[freakin a man]

The only Cumorah that should matter is the one that JS said it was, the one in New York. I guess I am confused as to why there are questions of more than one.

Would someone please explain (again I'm sure, as I am sure that it has been discussed before) why there might be more?

Thanks in advance.

THere is no reason to believe that the Hill Cumorah in New York is any more the same hill that is mentioned in the Book of Mormon text than the Jordon river in Utah is the same Jordan River that Jesus was baptized in. People tend to name places in honor after other famous places. When one reads the Book of Mormon, they see Mormon abridging all the records and giving the plates to Moroni. Mormon hides up the records that he used to make the abridgement in the Hill Cumorah while Moroni takes the plates and wanders for dozens of years. Unless Moroni was wandering around the same spot for all those years, there is no reason to believe that the New York hill is even in remote proximity to the hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

[poulsenll]

I know, I need to back off and let the person who started this thread have his say, but since I'm here right now...

Cumorah3

Even though I started this thread, I by no means have all the answers. Even the answers I do have may not be complete or even correct. So jump in whenever you like. We grow by listening to others who may have asked the same question but have found a dfferent answer which may compliment ours and extnd our understanding.

[Warship]

Cumorah 3,

You can prove its Cumorah by

A. Finding the records deposited..Morm6:6...that will be proof beyond doubt.

B. Proving an enormous battle took place with tens of thousands dead. This will not be definite proof but substantial proof.

[freakin a man]

B. Proving an enormous battle took place with tens of thousands dead. This will not be definite proof but substantial proof.

Just how does one prove a large battle that occurred 1600 years ago? The bones would be long decomposed. Weapons and remnants of weapons would either have been picked up by scavengers or deteriorated. I think its rather unrealistic to find evidence of any large battles that occurred 500 years ago let alone 1600.

[Chris Smith]

I'll assume he said something like "Oh all right, go ahead then" and I'll post the following quote from the home page of the Mormon Sites Website:

...

"In accord with these general observations about New York and Pennsylvania, we come to our principal object