johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 cdowis, Could you explain John 10:30,38 and John 14:10 and John 17:21 so we can understand what you believe.
Smith Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Johnny,Again here we are. Here is a crash course of our past conversations that you have so quickly forgotten.We know that God is God. 1 Tim. 2:3, Jas. 1:27 say that Christ is a God, and Acts 5:3-4 say that the Holy Ghost is a ....................................<SNIP>There is much more, but hopefully this will be enough to strike a chord of rememberance. livy111us,I found this very interesting, thanks!
johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 1dc, >> If you have "is God" and "is God" and "is God" you get "one God".No, you get each is God or fully god (whatever that means since they work together in unity).Below is an illustration of the point I was trying to make. I believe Mormons would relate to the center image of "three Gods or 1+1+1=3", Catholics would relate to the first image of "one God", and Modalist would relate to the last image of one blended person in the Godhead.This might have been a better example as long as you are proof-texting:He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.When Peter said Jesus was "the Christ of God" he was saying Jesus was the Messiah or Savior. God the Father, our Savior, sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1Tim 1:1; 1John 4:14).
Smith Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 I wonder if Christ had to resort to drawing such drawings when trying to explain this?
johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 livy111us, I addressed your entire post (see link below) ... tell me what part I ignored and I will address it.http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...ndpost&p=378059
johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Smith, If you could see the Godhead how many gods would you see?I would see one God just like Thomas and Stephen did. I would call upon God, saying Lord Jesus.John 20[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.Acts 7[59] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit
Smith Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 I think I would see what my name sake saw (Stephen) that is, The Father with the Son at his right hand and the Holy Ghost too as a spirit personage.I would see them like Joseph saw them, two personages, glorified with physical bodies and one without yet also a personage. Does that answer you?
Darth_Bill Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Johnny,Don't show that first symbol around very much. Looks like something the ATF might be on the lookout for.Perhaps that is why Jesus spent so much time scribling on the ground. Had to figure out where he fit and try to explain it to those simple fishermen.
johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Smith, Stephen did not see with his physcial eyes "the Son of man standing on the right hand of God", verse 65 says "I see the heavens opened" which indicates that he saw it as a vision, in a vision images are not necessarily actual but a represention.If Stephen saw two actual personnages why did Stephen call upon God saying "Lord Jesus"?
Smith Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Stephen did not see with his physcial eyes "the Son of man standing on the right hand of God", verse 65 says "I see the heavens opened" which indicates that he saw it as a vision, in a vision images are not necessarily actual but a represention. So was that also just a representation of Christ that was walking around Palestine with a crowd of people following? The same representation that ascended into heaven, the same representation that will come again at the second coming, the same representation that Stephen saw? No doubt you can tell from my question that I think this was the real thing.If Stephen saw two actual personnages why did Stephen call upon God saying "Lord Jesus"?Was Christ not stephen's advocate, the one who saved him, the one who stands with him before the Father? Thats why.
johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Darth_Bill, Do you think the fisherman thought Jesus was "a God" like the LDS church teaches?How would the fisherman of reacted if Jesus taught there are "three gods" like Joseph Smith taught?Maybe if Jesus had the above diagram or the Athanasian Creed (see below) their would of been less dispute amoung the fisherman of who Jesus was ... Athanasian Creed / Trinitarian Creed We worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence(substance). For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another. But the Godhead (the divinity) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal. And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods; there is but one God.
johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Smith, Stpehen's experience was an actual event. During this actual event Stephen had a vision much like the Apostle John saw when he saw the Son represented as a Lamb (Rev 4:6)?Rev 4 [1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. [2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.Rev 5[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Who is your God ... is it the Son or the Father ... who do you worship? ... how many gods do you worship?Stephen, like Thomas, recognized the Son as their God.John 20[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.The discples worshipped the Son (Matt 28:17). The Son is prayed to as the equal of the Father (2Cor 12: .Matt 28 [17] And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 2Cor 12[8] For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
Magyar Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Here's .... Johnny. One note, plinked over and over. Hands held over ears when we try to play ours.
Smith Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Who is your God ... is it the Son or the Father ... who do you worship? ... how many gods do you worship?Stephen, like Thomas, recognized the Son as their God. The Father! Jesus instructs us to worship the Father (John 4:21; Matt 4:10) I worship only the Father, like Christ did. Although, because of Christs atonement, I will wash his feet on day with my tears.The discples worshipped the Son (Matt 28:17). The Son is prayed to as the equal of the Father (2Cor 12: .Yes they did, wouldnt you if the risen Christ also appeared to you? For the Corinthians quote I think you are stretching.
Magyar Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Who is your God ... is it the Son or the Father ... who do you worship? ... how many gods do you worship?Stephen, like Thomas, recognized the Son as their God. The Father! Jesus instructs us to worship the Father (John 4:21; Matt 4:10) I worship only the Father, like Christ did. Although, because of Christs atonement, I will wash his feet on day with my tears.The discples worshipped the Son (Matt 28:17). The Son is prayed to as the equal of the Father (2Cor 12: .Yes they did, wouldnt you if the risen Christ also appeared to you? For the Corinthians quote I think you are stretching. Smith, it's nice that you are trying to answer a certain board member's questions. However, a quick search of said member's posts will probably enlighten you as to the fact that he is not interested in your answer, only repeating his singular mantra, and you might have better uses for your time.
johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Smith, Before his resurrection the Father was worshipped. After the resurrection the Son is also worshipped. Thomas called the risen Jesus "My Lord and My God.The Son is the Lord thy God (Matt 4:10) . 2Cor 12:8 shows that the Son is prayed to as the equal of the Father, just like the verses below show.Rom 10[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.1Cor 1[2] Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
cdowis Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 >Who is your God ... is it the Son or the Father ... who do you worship? ... how many gods do you worship?Stephen, like Thomas, recognized the Son as their God.Johnny, you really ought to read what Christ said about the Father, rather than what your theologians are teaching you. He clearly separated himself from the Father in many respects and on several occassions, and made clear that the position of the Father was superior to himself.Christ taught that the disciples would become one with the Father just as he was one with the Father, and they would receive the glory which the Father had given him.Again, I realize this is difficult for you.
johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 cdowis, The Son is seperate from the Father in many ways, for example the God of Israel (Jehovah) raised up Jesus.The position of the Father is different that the Son's, but their glory is equal.Christ disciples can become one in power. Christ's disciples can become one spirit with him to accomplish his will. Christ displciples will receive the glory the Son has given them. Christ's disciples become members of his body.
cdowis Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 JohnnyIt appears that we can agree, even when we disagree. I have an enormous respect for the Catholic church, and have tried not to push my point too far. I was merely trying to demonstrate that, intellectually at least, our position is not totally indefensible.With greatest respect to your and your church and religion.
Joseph Antley Posted February 28, 2006 Author Posted February 28, 2006 Antley, Below are some example of "three distinct persons, yet one Being":- God created not gods created like LDS scripture reveals.- Men will see God not gods, Stephen and Thomas saw their God and said Lord Jesus.- Men are a temple of God not a temple of gods.- Men are baptized in the name not in the names.Scripture does not reveal seperate three gods in the Godhead:- "God" was manifest in the flesh, instead of "a God" like the LDS church teaches.- The Son was "God" he did become "a God"- Paul says One God and One Lord instead of gods.- Paul says "there is none other God but one" and that "called gods" Paul said to us there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, but there are also gods many and lords many. Though I'm sure you think he was referring to the pagan and idol gods.Anyhow, that didn't really answer my question. In what ways are the Trinity all one God, besides the fact that they are just called "one God"? Is it perhaps possible that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three dictinct entities and Gods, yet are collectivelly called "The God", "the Only God", making the general term "God" synonymous with "Godhead"? That's my interpretation, anyway.
johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Antley, An example of where "the Trinity all one God" is during creation. God alone created the universe without any help. There are no other gods besides him. He made heaven and earth. Though the work of creation is attributed to the Father in particular, it is equally a truth of faith that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are the one, indivisible principle of creation. Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity. Each divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property. He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom", "by the Son and the Spirit" who, so to speak, are "his hands". Isa 44[6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.[8] Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.[24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Gen 1[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.Acts 17[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.[31] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
cdowis Posted March 1, 2006 Posted March 1, 2006 Again, we are in agreement. The Bible teaches it and we accept it.
johnny Posted March 1, 2006 Posted March 1, 2006 cdowis, Is the Book of Abraham in agreement with the Bible ... please explain?It says ...Gods created. Gods took counsel among themselves (Abr 4)Gods formed man (Abr5)
Joseph Antley Posted March 1, 2006 Author Posted March 1, 2006 Antley, An example of where "the Trinity all one God" is during creation. You've already given examples of where the Trinity is all considered one God. I agree with you! When it says God created the earth, I believe it is talking about all three members of the Godhead, just like you do!But to me that doesn't mean they are all one Being. When it says they are one God, I take God to be synonymous with Godhead, as I said. Together they all make up God, but they are also Gods themselves. If the Holy Spirit or the Son did not exist, the Father would still be God.So, once again, how exactly are they "one God", besides the fact that they are called "one God"? (Third time's the charm!)
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