The Nicene Creed

[rhinomelon]

Might I also add that in the case of Origen, where he went wrong was getting to Greek in his thinking. It is his off and on devotion to Platonic categories of thought that actually led him away from the Trinity at some points. Oddly enough, the points in which Origen gets closer to LDS doctrine are the most Greek of them all.

What we have here is dualing interpretations.

Agreed.

Take care

[Smith]

Homousia is Biblical ... "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30)

I think you are confused, you also said -

The word "consubstantial" is not in Bible but "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) is in the Bible.

I think you need to figure out what you think.

[rhinomelon]

I think you need to figure out what you think.

This might solve your difficulty. "Biblical" does not mean "the word is in the Bible". That is a definition so narrow that it really isn't practical or useful. "Biblical" means "taught in the Bible".

The Trinitiarian model does not have any scriptural precident or model.

Other than God Himself, of course.

Hope that helps. Take care

[cdowis]

>Homousia is Biblical ... "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30)

We believe that the Father and Son are one, in the same way that Jesus tells us in John 17. Homoousia is not in the Bible, nor is it a Biblical doctrine. It is the doctrine of man.

[rhinomelon]

Nor is "priesthood authority" or "eternal progression" found in the Bible, as a phrase or a teaching for the Church. They are doctrines of man.

The knife cuts both ways here. I realize that it is your belief and opinion that the Trinity is unbiblical and is merely an invention of man. But johnny and I disagree, and have laid out our case with a great deal of logic and scripture (including, but not limited to, John 17). It may be a challenge for you, but hey, that's what we're all here for, right?

Take care, everyone

[johnny]

Bsix,

I agree that the Bible identifies three distinct persons but the Bible does not reveal them as "three Gods" like Joseph Smith taught. Neither the OT nor the NT reveal "three Gods. Please provide a scripture to support Joseph Smith's teaching of "three Gods". See LDS link below

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Cur...oly%20ghost.htm

Tradition Christinity fits nicely with the scriptures, sripture reveals the Son is "God" (JOhn 1:1). Scripture does not reveal the Son is "a God" like the LDS church teaches. Scripture reveals their is one God (1Cor 8:4-6). In 1Cor 8 Paul contrast the Christian belief of one God with the belief of many gods.

1Cor 8

[4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

[5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The LDS Church did not restore the truth of "three Gods" because neither Jesus nor the early Apostolic Church taught "three Gods" like the LDS church does.

Mark 12

[29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

[32] And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

LDS doctrine does not reveal the oneness that Jesus revealed. Jesus revealed that "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) and that the "Father, art in me, and I in thee" (John 17:21). The oneness of a husband and wife is not the same oneness the Son has with the Father because a spouse cannot "dwell" in their spouse like the Father does with the Son (John 14:10).

John 14

[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The Trinitiarian model has scriptural precident. The Bible explicity says that the Son is God (John 1:1) and that the Father and the Son are one (John 10:30).

To believe the LDS interpretation a person has to ignore the plain words of the Bible.

To believe the LDS interpretation you have to add words to scripture, for example John 1:1 reveals the Son is "God", John 1:1 does not reveal the Son is "a God" like the LDS church teaches.

[johnny]

cdowis,

In John 17, like John 10, Jesus tells us that "the Father is in me" ... do you believe in this oneness that Jesus reveals? Please describe the oneness that you believe John 17 and John 10 reveals.

John 17

[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 10

[30] I and my Father are one

[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Homoousia is clearly in the Bible (see scriptures above). Please share with us your interpretation of John 17:21 and John 10:30,38. Homoousion expresses the true faith of the Church: Christ is "one in being" with the Father. For more information see the links below:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705fea3.asp

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07449a.htm

1Timothy also reveals this oneness, it reveals that God was manifest in the flesh. God is Man and Man is God in the Person of Jesus Christ. The Divine nature was united with the human nature of Jesus. A union of two substances or natures so as to make One Person Who was at the same time God and Man, that is, had at the same time Divine and human nature. Please share with us your interpretation of 1Tim 3:16.

1Tim.2

[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Tim.3

[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[1dc]

Do you believe Jesus is "God" or do you believe Jesus is "a god" like the LDS church teaches?

The LDS church teaches both. He is a god as a distinct entity and God as part of one God exactly as holy scriptures teach.

Why do you many LDS members speak of "three Gods"?

Why do Catholics proclaim each member of the Godhead are God and then speak with extra-biblical words which imply they are are not distinct? Each is fully god and that doesn't diminish any of them as distinct persons or as God. They are also One God because they are united in spirit, even as we can be.

Why did Joseph Smith interpret the above passages so as to teach "three Gods"  instead of "one God" (see link below)?

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Cur...oly%20ghost.htm

Because we understand there are three distinct persons each of which is fully god. I assume you know what "tri", as the word Trinity refers to. Yes, that is correct, 3 divine persons. And a divine person is called a god even though we profess they are united as One God in the Godhead. [Note to truth-seekers: Godhead is in the Bible, unlike concepts and words which some would force all others to use over the words of the Bible itself.]

Perhaps more importantly, he might well have done so both with--and to impart--a fuller understanding of what God wants for us, why we are on the earth and have bodies and will be resurrected and judged and given gifts from God based on our faith and how it moves us to live.

The word "consubstantial" is not in Bible but "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) is in the Bible.

Being one in spirit with each other and with God doesn't make us God nor does it preclude us progressing as separate beings. Nor does it explain what consubstantial means relative to each of them or us as distinct sentient beings. It also doesn't explain why God said the Father was His God and our God rather than that He was His own God and that He was our God. You offer no explanation at all.

Are Joseph Smith words "three Gods" in either the OT or the NT?

Both words are found in the Bible. And there you go again suggesting with a capital G that JS taught "three Gods" rather than "three gods" when he taught One God. Because you imply what YOU CHOOSE to imply instead of being completely correct at what he taught and what LDS understand.

None of which gives you the right to omit the balance of what JS or LDS have taught. It is the same as if I omitted a part of one of your beloved creeds and proclaimed such an incomplete teaching as fully Catholic . . your approach and teaching is wrong. It does not lift us up or impart true grace on any reader because only the truth can do that.

Catholics believe Jesus is God, not a god. 

And yet He said: "my God, and your God" not referring to Himself which would mean his distinction is important for us to comprehend. Yes, Jesus is a distinct godly person and God representing the Father. So we technically agree, even if you don't like the words LDS use. Personally, I don't believe you or any Catholic hierachy have a problem comprehending that . . rather my presumption is there is a lack of love and respect that goes far deeper than word choice.

For Catholics the Athanasian Creed (Trinitarian Creed) is clear (see link below)

The link I provided included that . . however if you were correct and it were clear you could show me consubstantial in the Bible and it's exact definition therefrom. Insead you offer a scripture that doesn't provide the clarity an authoritative teacher should offer.

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods; there is but one God.

Mostly correct. Each distinct person is fully god and there is one God. I don't have to invent what isn't there in the Bible to understand that the Bible tells us there be many that are called gods. When the Father and the Son stand beside each other there are two that are called gods who are part of the Godhead but that each fully represents our One God.

Just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

Exactly my point. And yet the Bible says there are gods and lords many whether on earth or in heaven. I don't feel compelled to admit what the Bible plainly teaches, I proclaim it. I am not forbid from teaching what the Bible teaches, I proclaim it.

None of which gives you the right to omit the part of LDS teaching that lets you mischaracterize what LDS teach and believe. Doing so is a deceitful practice and it should be beneath you. I pray you will stop doing so for your own sake, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

[1dc]

Nor is "priesthood authority" or "eternal progression" found in the Bible, as a phrase or a teaching for the Church. They are doctrines of man.

Matt. 7: 29

For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

The Bible does teach Christ had authority and He is the Great High Priest. He gave that authority to Peter. The words and concept are from the Bible.

Mark 3:29

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Though the word progress is not there in this translation, eternal damnation is being blocked from being forgiven. There is no progression to heavenly glory if one is eternally damned.

Your point about words needs to go a little further . . for a concept to be taught, it must be more than a singular interpretation.

[Joseph Antley]

The difference is Trinitarians usually claim that all their beliefs are taught in the Bible; Latter-day Saints usually do not claim that all their beliefs are taught explicitely in the Bible.

[Bsix]

Trinitarians usually claim that all their beliefs are taught in the Bible; Latter-day Saints usually do not claim that all their beliefs are taught explicitely in the Bible.

Six: I think that is an excellent point. I think that there is a measure of misrepresentation in how Trinitarians present the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the nature and origin of creedal Trinitarianism.

As we have seen in this thread, there is a measure of either denial or misrepresentation about the evolution of the doctrine of the Trinity and the real story behind the Nicene Creed and the influence of Constantine.

There is also a measure of half-truth claims regarding appealing to the Bible as a God-breathed authoratative basis for the Trinity doctrine.

To those who do not know better, Trinitiarians will say that the Bible teaches the Trinity when they are perfectly aware that the Bible does not teach any such doctrine is a clear, direct or explicit manner. Trinitarians are loathe to admit that the doctrine of the Trinity took hundreds of years to evolve, that Jesus did not teach it or articulate it.

The most completely truthful thing that Trinitarians can say about the Trinitity doctrine is that it is nothing more than an majority-rules dogma that attempts to reconcile apparent contradictions from the Bible...namely that the Bible declares that there is only one God yet identifies three seperate, unique and individuals as being a diety.

Now, that is not to say that we Mormons are without fault. Our belief in the Godhead as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost as seperate and disctinct Gods is is supported by the Bible, but not explicity taught. Often, we do not make it clear that we rely on restorative revelation in addition to the Bible to support such a notion.

Now, with that said, I don't think that Latter Day Saints are amiss in threads devoted to a discussion of the Nicene Creed as it relates to the Trinity doctrine to simply point out the faults and heresies regarding the creeds. Afterall, the topic isn't the Mormon notion of God...but rather the doctrine of God as it relates to the Nicene Creed.

One other thought...

In regards to "one substance" as promoted by the Trinitarians. Do they belief that the followers of Christ -- who are described as being of one heart and soul -- are of one substance as the persons of the Trinitarian Godhead are? If not...why not?

Paul decribes he and Apollo as "one." Are the two of them cosubustantive in the same manner as God the Father and God the Son? If not, why not?

Are husbands and wives who are "one flesh" a homosious union? If not, why not?

When believers such as those decribed in John 17 are one in God the Father and one in God the Son...are they themselves God because they are now a part of the same one shared substance? If not...why not?

Six

[SteubieU]

The difference is Trinitarians usually claim that all their beliefs are taught in the Bible; Latter-day Saints usually do not claim that all their beliefs are taught explicitely in the Bible.

Mmm, Catholics don't say it is in the Bible explicity, though it is there....

[SteubieU]

The most completely truthful thing that Trinitarians can say about the Trinitity doctrine is that it is nothing more than an majority-rules dogma that attempts to reconcile apparent contradictions from the Bible...namely that the Bible declares that there is only one God yet identifies three seperate, unique and individuals as being a diety.

Now, that is not to say that we Mormons are without fault. Our belief in the Godhead as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost as seperate and disctinct Gods is is supported by the Bible, but not explicity taught. Often, we do not make it clear that we rely on restorative revelation in addition to the Bible to support such a notion.

Okay, I see... so when the Trinitarians are doing it they are "attempt[ing] to reconcile apparent contradictions from the Bible" but when the Mormons do it, it is "supported by the Bible, but not explicitly taught?"

Just um... just checking...

[Joseph Antley]

The difference is Trinitarians usually claim that all their beliefs are taught in the Bible; Latter-day Saints usually do not claim that all their beliefs are taught explicitely in the Bible.

Mmm, Catholics don't say it is in the Bible explicity, though it is there....

Did I understand that right? You don't claim it's taught explicitely in the Bible, but it is?

A good portion of this thread is Trinitarians (Catholics and non-Catholics) arguing that it is taught in the Bible.

Okay, I see... so when the Trinitarians are doing it they are "attempt[ing] to reconcile apparent contradictions from the Bible" but when the Mormons do it, it is "supported by the Bible, but not explicitly taught?"

Just um... just checking...

Umm, no. When Mormons do it, we claim it is supported by the Bible, and confirmed by modern-day revelation.

[Bsix]

Okay, I see... so when the Trinitarians are doing it they are "attempt[ing] to reconcile apparent contradictions from the Bible" but when the Mormons do it, it is "supported by the Bible, but not explicitly taught?"

Just um... just checking...

Six: I am attempting to make an honest and fair critique. When we Mormons offer up our interpretation based only on the Bible, we are offering up an interpretation in the same manner as Trinitarians do.

What I was attempting to say is that Mormons believe that there is more of God's scripture and prophetic teachings with which to clear up this issue. What I was faulting Mormons for is that we do not always make it clear that we rely on more than simply an interpretation of the Bible.

Regards,

Six

[johnny]

1dc,

You say the Son is a "distinct entity" can the Father dwell in the Son as the Bible reveals?

The extra-biblical words gives us a fuller understand of the oneness that is revealed in the words "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). The extra-biblical words help us understand that they are "distinct" but not two seperate beings. John 17:21 reveals that the the Father and the Son are "one in being" and that they are distinct, the Father is in the Son. If LDS church teaches the Father has tangible body of flesh can he dwell in another tangible body of flesh?

You say that "each is fully god" could you provide the LDS teaching on this, other LDS members have told me that the Son is not "fully god".

Catholics also understand that their are three distinct persons. The term Godhead is also used in the teachings of the Catholic Church and the Christian creeds (see below). Godhead indicates divinity. Do you believe that the three persons of the Godhead dwelt in the Son (Col 2:9)?

Col 2

[9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm#brief

266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

Do you believe that the divinity is shared among the Father and the Son? Catholics believe that the divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire. The Son of God said that the Father was His God and our God because the Father is Lord of the Son and our Lord (Psalm 110:1). Their is only one God.

Please provide the Bible verse that support Joseph Smith teaching of "three Gods" Would you agree that Joseph Smith taught "three Gods" with a captital G. Would you also agree that the Mormon Church teaches each person is "a God". If you add up three "a God" do you get "three Gods" like Joseph Smith taught?

The Catholic Church teaches they are distinct persons. Before ascending to the Father "My God, and your God" indicates that the Father is the Lord of Jesus and our Lord (Psalm 110:1). After Jesus ascended to the Father Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and my God". After Jesus ascended Stephen called upon God saying "Lord Jesus".

I have shown where the Bible reveals the concept of consubstantial. John 17:21 and John 10:38 clearly show consubstantial which means "one in being". John 17:21 and John 10:38 do not reveal two beings, they reveal "one in being" or consubstantial. Please give me your interpretation of the following verses:

John 17

[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 10

[30] I and my Father are one

[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14

[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Was Jesus "fully god" before his incarnation? Was Jesus "fully god" while he was on earth? Could you provide the LDS teaching that Jesus was "fully god".

The Father and the Son cannot stand beside each other because they are "one in being". Stephen saw the glory of God and Jesus. When Stephen called upon God he called upon Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59).

Acts 7

[55] But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

[56] And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

[59] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Pauls says their is that "called gods", for example Satan is called god. Our God is the God of gods. Their is only one God as the Bible reveals.

Would you agree that the Joseph taught "three Gods" with a captial G (see link below):

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Cur...oly%20ghost.htm

three Gods

[johnny]

Antley,

The doctrine of the Trinity gives us a fuller understanding of what is reveled in the Bible. The Bible reveals one God and reveals three distinct persons. The Bible does not reveal "three Gods" like Joseph Smith taught.

[johnny]

Bsix,

I am still waiting for you provide quotes or sources that reveal the Constantine took part in the deliberations of the Council, unless there is a measure of misrepresentation in your words. Earlier you said:

What I am observing is that Constantine, a non-Christian secular emporor, convoked the council, was involved in the deliberations, to the point of suggesting some of the actual wording of the Creed, and then used his power as emporor to enforce the dictates of the Council.

The Trinity is a mystery. A mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation. In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine messege.

Man was not given religious truth as though from a Scholastic theologian, nicely laid out and fully indexed. The creeds give the church a ever-deepening understanding of the deposit of faith that had been "once for all delivered" to it by Christ and the apostles (Jude 3). The Church facilitates the development or maturing of doctrines. Disputes arise and formal definitions by the Church became necessary.

The Church does not, indeed cannot, change the doctrines God has given it, nor can it "invent" new ones and add them to the deposit of faith that has been "once for all delivered to the saints." New beliefs are not invented, but obscurities and misunderstandings regarding the deposit of faith are cleared up. Some central doctrines (such as the Trinity and the hypostatic union) were not always understood or as clearly expounded in the Church

[Joseph Antley]

Non-Latter-day Saints should remember that when LDS look at these scriptures, we often take them figuratively rather than literally. When it says there is "One God", we do not believe it means the same thing you do. We believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are simultaenously One God and three Gods.

[johnny]

Antley,

Could you explain how you can interpret John 14:10 as figurative because it says that the Father dwelling in the Son does the works. How can something figurative do work?

Could you provide some scriptures that illustrate what you mean by "When it says there is "One God" ... We believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are simultaenously One God and three Gods."

[livy111us]

Johnny, this has been explained to you many times, and am disappointed that you brought it up again. You seem to ignore past conversations, and re-hash old worn out arguments.

[johnny]

livy111us,

Please provide us with the links where these questions have been answered ...

If it has explained many times then you should be able to answer the questions easily and quickly ...

[Joseph Antley]

Antley,

Could you provide some scriptures that illustrate what you mean by "When it says there is "One God" ... We believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are simultaenously One God and three Gods."

Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. - Luke 3:21-22 (There are Three Gods)

...to us there is but one God - 1 Corinthians 8:5 (There is One God)

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5:7 (There is One God)

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. - Acts 7:56 (There are Two Gods)

Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God - Alma 11:44 (There is One God)

When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description - Joseph Smith-History 1:17 (There are Two Gods)

(Yes, I know you expected Biblical scriptures, but as I said, my views of the Godhead are not solely based on the Bible.)

[johnny]

Antley,

Could you explain how Luke 3:21-22 reveals "three Gods", it me it only reveals three distinct.

I would agree that their is but one God (1Cor 8:5; 1 John 5:7)

Acts 7:56 reveals one God, Stephen called upon God saying "Lord Jesus". By 'the Father's right hand' we understand the glory and honour of divinity, check the lexicon.

Did Joseph Smith see two Personages with his physical eyes or did he have a vision?

[Joseph Antley]

Did Joseph Smith see two Personages with his physical eyes or did he have a vision?

It was a vision, if I understand it correctly.

Perhaps this quote would make my belief a little more clear.

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith p. 370).

To me, that is just as good as Moses, Isaiah, or Peter saying They are three Gods.