johnny Posted February 26, 2006 Posted February 26, 2006 Antley, To me a vision indicates that the objects seen are not necessarily the actual objects but can be a respresentation, for example in the Apostle John's vision he saw the Son as a lamb.
livy111us Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 Johnny, did you forget our lengthy discussions? Or are you just trying to avoid the question?
Cold Steel Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 Acts 7:56 reveals one God, Stephen called upon God saying "Lord Jesus". By 'the Father's right hand' we understand the glory and honour of divinity, check the lexicon. Did Joseph Smith see two Personages with his physical eyes or did he have a vision? Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of the Father. This was a vision, but quite different from Joseph Smith's vision, which was an actual event as well as a vision. The Beings he saw could hear and see him, answer questions and instruct him.Nearly all of Christianity accepts the Trinity as three individuals that are one in purpose, thus comprising One God. Even so, the term Elohim implies a plurality that hasn't been decisively answered by Judaism. "Man has become as one of us," the Gods say. David says in the Psalms: "The Lord saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand...." Both "Lords" here are shown as being individual, yet neither is David, who is king. (Psalms 110:1-2)Discussions of the Trinity usually end up being about arguments about how best to say the same thing. When Jesus says only the Father knows the day and the time of Christ's coming, and that even he doesn't know it, that, too, implies plurality.Only modalists see the same God acting three different parts. In reality, when Adam sinned, Jesus became intercessor, the great Jehovah, because the Father could no longer deal directly with man. Only at the end of days will Christ fully redeem mankind, bring his work to an end and present it back to the Father.But you know something? The KEY is when Jesus prays to the Father that the apostles may be one, "even as we are one." This is a direct explanation of the way that the Father and Son are one. Were the apostles of the same substance? No. Nevertheless, they were to be one. Is the Father and Son of the same substance? No, but they are nevertheless One. The second KEY is communication. The Father communicates with the Son as he communicates with anyone else, and the Son communicates with the Father as he did anyone else. He prayed for the Father to "remove the bitter cup," but if he were the Father, he could have removed the bitter cup. Nevertheless, he prayed, thy will be done.It couldn't be any plainer. It's so obvious people shouldn't even be discussing it. There's no room for error.Cold Steel
johnny Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 Cold Steel, Isn't a vision an actual event? In the Apostle's John vision weren't the Beings he saw could hear and see him, answer questions and instruct him. Could you explain how Joseph's Smith vision was different than the Apostle's John vision.Elohim and Jehovah are the same God. In Psalm 110 both Lord's are shown as distinct personalities. Like Psalm 110, the doctrine of the Trinity reveals two distinct personalities.The Son and the Father are distinct personalites. Only the Father knows the end time because he put it in his own power (Acts 1:7).Catholics are not modalists. Modalism is the heresy that states there is one God who manifests himself in different modes or expressions.When Jesus prays to the Father it reveals that that the Father and the Son are "one in being" (verse 21) and also reveals that the disciples can become one in power (verse 22)John 17 [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: God is one in substance. There is only one true God, three persons indeed, but one substance. Three Persons come into the soul (John 14:23). Three distinct persons but inseparable. John 14[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.The Son prayed to the Father. Jesus is the form of a servant.Phil.2[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:What is clear is that the Son "is God" (John 1:1,14). What is in error is the LDS teaching that the Son "is a God".What is not obvious from the Bible is Joseph Smith's teaching of "three Gods".
Joseph Antley Posted February 27, 2006 Author Posted February 27, 2006 Elohim and Jehovah are the same God. In Psalm 110 both Lord's are shown as distinct personalities. Like Psalm 110, the doctrine of the Trinity reveals two distinct personalities. Sounds to me like a God with a multiple personality disorder Yeah, I apologize in advance.
johnny Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 Antley, Sounds like you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity.Yeah, I apologize in advance.
Joseph Antley Posted February 27, 2006 Author Posted February 27, 2006 Antley, Sounds like you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity.Yeah, I apologize in advance. Heh, no need for apologies. You're probably right, and I've been told that before.Here's what I get from the Trinity: They are three Gods in every way except the fact that you call Them one God. I like what Origen said about people falling into this false view because they are afraid to admit they believe in more than one God.Yeah, I know, they are still one Being, but if They have distinct personalities and can appear beside each other before the same person, then "one Being" doesn't mean much, to me anyway.
1dc Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 You say the Son is a "distinct entity" can the Father dwell in the Son as the Bible reveals? Yes.1 Jn. 4: 16 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.The extra-biblical words gives us a fuller understand of the oneness that is No, they confuse what distinct and being mean. They also distract from scriptures like the above which clarify what we are to do in getting closer to God. They come from false prohets.If LDS church teaches the Father has tangible body of flesh can he dwell in another tangible body of flesh?Yes, by the Holy Spirit as His messenger. John 13: 20 20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.We have bodies and can dwell in God, which would include Christ who has a body (see above).You say that "each is fully god" could you provide the LDS teaching on this, other LDS members have told me that the Son is not "fully god".I gave you several scriptures that teach this. Also, I've seen you post relative to the concept that Jesus was Jehovah of the OT, so I have no idea why this concept is in any way foreign to you. More importantly, you've been shown the teachings of Jospeh Smith which declare One God.Do you believe that the three persons of the Godhead dwelt in the Son (Col 2:9)?Col 2 [9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Yep, see above.Do you believe that the divinity is shared among the Father and the Son? Nope. The gifts of the Father do no diminish the Father in any way.The Son of God said that the Father was His God and our God because the Father is Lord of the Son and our Lord (Psalm 110:1). Their is only one God.That statement and one in being represent Christ is Lord unto Himself. Your language is needlessly obtuse.Please provide the Bible verse that support Joseph Smith teaching of "three Gods" Would you agree that Joseph Smith taught "three Gods" with a captital G. Would you also agree that the Mormon Church teaches each person is "a God". If you add up three "a God" do you get "three Gods" like Joseph Smith taught?No. No. And no. Your reading comprehension apparently suffered here. It was you that introduced the capital G, not Joseph.I have shown where the Bible reveals the concept of consubstantial. John 17:21 and John 10:38 clearly show consubstantial which means "one in being". John 17:21 and John 10:38 do not reveal two beings, they reveal "one in being" or consubstantial. No, you've shown where you infer it, rather than it being taught.Please give me your interpretation of the following verses:They were spiritually unified and work together by the Father's authority.Was Jesus "fully god" before his incarnation? Was Jesus "fully god" while he was on earth? Could you provide the LDS teaching that Jesus was "fully god".Repeat question, see above.The Father and the Son cannot stand beside each other because they are "one in being". Stephen saw the glory of God and Jesus. When Stephen called upon God he called upon Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59).Acts 7 [55] But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, [56] And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. [59] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. You can deny Stephen's vision if you choose.Pauls says their is that "called gods", for example Satan is called god. Our God is the God of gods. Their is only one God as the Bible reveals.So now you're calling Satan god? My goodness.Would you agree that the Joseph taught "three Gods" with a captial G (see link below):http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Cur...oly%20ghost.htmthree Gods
johnny Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 Antley, The Trinity is the term to signify in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Christians believe Jesus Christ was praying to his Father, a distinct Person but not a separate God. Catholics are not modalists. Modalism is the heresy that asserts that there is only one person in the Godhead. The doctrine of one divine nature and three Persons in One God is firmly grounded in Scripture. The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19. Christ revealed the doctrine of the Trinity to us in explicit terms (Matt 28:19). Matthew 28:19 reveals that "the Father" and "the Son" and the "the Holy Ghost" are three distinct Persons. The phrase "in the name" affirms the Godhead of the Persons and their unity of nature. The use of the singular, "name," and not the plural, shows that
johnny Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 1dc, You say that the Father can dwell in a person, Joseph Smith appears to disagree with you in D&C 130:3,22,23.The extra-biblical teaching of "three Gods" comes from a false prophet. The Holy Prophets of the Bible reveal one God.John 14:10 is not speaking of the Holy Spirit, it says the indwelling Father does the works.Again could you show me where the LDS church teaches that the Son is fully God while on earth, I ask because I have talked to other LDS who say differently.Christ is not Lord unto himself. Christ in His human nature is the servant of God the Father (John 20:17). Psalm 110 reveals that the Father is Lord of the Son.The following LDS link shows Joseph Smith using a capital G in "three Gods".http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Cur...oly%20ghost.htmIn your interpretation of John 10 why did you not include verse 38?In your interpretation of John 17 why did you not include verse 21?John 10 [30] I and my Father are one [38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. John 17 [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. I do not deny Stephen's vision, I deny the LDS interpetation of it. Stephen did not see two seperate personnages.Scipture calls Satan a god.I don't understand how the LDS church can teach their are 3 gods in the Godhead. Paul, like the Nicene Creed, taught one God and one Lord (1Cor 8:6). Jesus taught their is one God (Mark 12:32). saiah revealed that God was alone and by himself when he created (Isa 44:8,24).Do you believe that their were 3 gods that dwelt in the Son (Col 2:9)?Do you believe that their were 3 gods during creation (Acts 17:29)?Col 2 [9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
livy111us Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 Johnny,Again here we are. Here is a crash course of our past conversations that you have so quickly forgotten.We know that God is God. 1 Tim. 2:3, Jas. 1:27 say that Christ is a God, and Acts 5:3-4 say that the Holy Ghost is a God. I don't know about you, but when I add 1+1+1 it equals 3.John 1:1 in the King James Version translates this as
cdowis Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 >I don't understand how the LDS church can teach their are 3 gods in the Godhead.Thank you for your admission that you do not know nor understand LDS doctrine.>Paul, like the Nicene Creed, taught one God and one Lord (1Cor 8:6). Paul did not teach "one substance/essence/being" (homoousia). He taught the same doctrine as found in John 17:19-23, and as found in the Book of Mormon.Homoousia is a doctrine of man. It is not found nor taught in the scriptures.
johnny Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 livy111us, 1 Tim. 2:3 does not reveal that "Christ is a God", it reveals that God the Father, our Savior, sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1Tim 1:1; 1John 4:14).Acts 5:3-5 does not reveal that HG "is a God", it reveals that the HG "is God"If you have "is a God" and "is a God" and "is a God" you get "three Gods".If you have "is God" and "is God" and "is God" you get "one God".1Tim 3 and 1John1 help us to understand that John 1:1 reveals that the Son "is God" ... John 1:1 does not reveal the Son "is a God" like the LDS church teachs.John 1 [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. [34] And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. 1Tim.3 [16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1John 1 [1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; [2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)Origin and Justin are good example of of where early writers employed expressions that were inaccurate. Some truths were unfamiliar with the early writers. Revelation latter clarified these early writers.The writings of the earliest Christians clearly understood the Trinity in the sense that we do today: The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine Persons who are one divine Being. Ignatius of Antioch"There is then one God and Father, and not two or three; one who is, and there is no other besides him, the only true [God]. For
johnny Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 cdowis, The Apostle John taught "I and my Father are one" or homoousia. Homoousia is a doctrine of God. Cearly Homoousia is found in the Holy Sciptures.John 10 [30] I and my Father are one [38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. John 14 [10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 17 [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
cdowis Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 Johnny,You need to speak to someone who is knowledgeable with the Greek NT. Homoousia is found nowhere in the Greek New Testament.
johnny Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 cdowis, Would you agree that "I and my Father are one" is found in your King James Bible ...Would you agree that the above passages I posted are found in your King James Bible ...Do you believe the LDS teaching that the Son "is a God" because this found nowhere in the New Testament.
cdowis Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 I will repeat myself one more time:1. I accept the doctrine of
1dc Posted February 27, 2006 Posted February 27, 2006 If you have "is God" and "is God" and "is God" you get "one God". No, you get each is God or fully god (whatever that means since they work together in unity).This might have been a better example as long as you are proof-texting:He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
Joseph Antley Posted February 27, 2006 Author Posted February 27, 2006 Antley, The Trinity is the term to signify in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Christians believe Jesus Christ was praying to his Father, a distinct Person but not a separate God.
1dc Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 You say that the Father can dwell in a person, Joseph Smith appears to disagree with you in D&C 130:3,22,23. I said the spirit of God can dwell . . as with pure love. Obviously Christ doesn't dwell bodily in anyone else.Alma 34: 36.36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the crighteous doth he dwellThe extra-biblical teaching of "three Gods" comes from a false prophet. The Holy Prophets of the Bible reveal one God.Yes, I would agree your notion of three LDS Gods is false prophecy and false testimony due to deliberate omission of what you've been taught is a more correct and complete perspective. More importantly, it seems to be your tactic to confuse others because it has no effect relative to the roles of the three persons of the Godhead as taught by LDS."Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are calledthe Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an importantassignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Fatheris our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The HolyGhost is the revealer and testifier of all truth."John 14:10 is not speaking of the Holy Spirit, it says the indwelling Father does the works.Yes, all of the glory goes to the Father for whom His messengers serve.Again could you show me where the LDS church teaches that the Son is fully God while on earth, I ask because I have talked to other LDS who say differently.In 1978 Donald Q. Cannon said: Those who recognize that Jesus is above the stature of mortal man have employed many terms to describe him. Surely one of the most beautiful statements concerning his identity is found in the book of Isaiah. In Isaiah 9:6 [isa. 9:6] we read that he shall be called
1dc Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Edit: look out, I'm saving my 500th post for a good one Too late . . I think that was it.
Joseph Antley Posted February 28, 2006 Author Posted February 28, 2006 Edit: look out, I'm saving my 500th post for a good one Too late . . I think that was it. nah, it was my 499th. I used by 500th in another thread.And here's 501! Next big moment...1000.
1dc Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Edit: look out, I'm saving my 500th post for a good one
johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 1dc, I would also agree the spirit of God can dwell ... I would also say that the Father and the Son can dwell in a person.John 14 [23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. How man Gods did Joseph Smith when he two pesonnages if the Father is a God and the Son is a God?Could you explain how John 14:10 says "all of the glory goes to the Father for whom His messengers serve". To me it sounds like the indwelling Father does the work.John 14 [10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Did Jesus become God like the LDS teaching that the Father became God?The Father is Lord of the Son (Psalm 110:1). In the end the Son hands his kingdom to the Father so that God will then be "all in all".If Jesus was fully God like you say, was their a point when he wasn't God and became God?John 10:38 and John 17:21 is not about "substance" but is about the the Son being "one in being" with the Father. The Nicene Creed says "one in being" it does not say "substance.I agree Stephen saw more than a cloud or vapor ... when he called to God, he said Lord Jesus.Satan is what is "called gods" but is not like God, the Father, of whom are all things. Their is none other God but one. (1Cor 8:4-6).What is a "distinct sentient beings"? If the Godhead appeard to you how Gods would be before you?
johnny Posted February 28, 2006 Posted February 28, 2006 Antley, Below are some example of "three distinct persons, yet one Being":- God created not gods created like LDS scripture reveals.- Men will see God not gods, Stephen and Thomas saw their God and said Lord Jesus.- Men are a temple of God not a temple of gods.- Men are baptized in the name not in the names.Scripture does not reveal seperate three gods in the Godhead:- "God" was manifest in the flesh, instead of "a God" like the LDS church teaches.- The Son was "God" he did become "a God"- Paul says One God and One Lord instead of gods.- Paul says "there is none other God but one" and that "called gods"
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