rameumptom Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 Antley, So in other words the LDS President does not pass the keys to next LDS president ... the LDS Presidency is not handed on by one LDS President to another through the laying of hands.I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas but it's my bedtime so I will respond tomorrow ... The keys and authorities all reside in the Quorum of Twelve Apostles as a group, as well as with the presiding Apostle, the Prophet. When one prophet dies, the Twelve gather and lay hands upon the new successor (chosen via prayer and revelation by the Twelve) and set him apart as the new prophet with all the keys and authorities in one person that the Quorum of Twelve jointly hold.In our D&C, we read that the Quorum of the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve hold equal keys and authorities, though the First Presidency presides over all.So, the keys are passed from one generation to the next by those with the authority and power of God.
johnny Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 Antley, So for example, if the LDS President would attempt to sell the presidency to someone, do you think he would no longer be worthy to hold the keys and they would be taken from him, along with any authority he had.The items you mentioned are not associated with infallibility, infallibility is concerned with the interpretation and effective safeguarding of truths already revealed. See link below for more information on infallibility:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
Joseph Antley Posted March 6, 2006 Author Posted March 6, 2006 So for example, if the LDS President would attempt to sell the presidency to someone, do you think he would no longer be worthy to hold the keys and they would be taken from him, along with any authority he had. Exactly."That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man." (D&C 121:36-37)
1dc Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 I agree we have one God. Why did the disciples worship and pray to Christ as an equal to the Father after he was resurrected? Perhaps you could explain your thoughts . . when they say they baptized in the name of Christ, do you think they left out the Father and Holy Ghost?I didn't ask if the Father had a Father, I asked if their was a time when the Father was not a Father because he did not have a firstborn that would define him as a Father.Ah . . I believe the Bible only speaks of an Alpha or Beginning or Firstborn. If Christ said He was the Beginning that suggests He is speaking of a starting point. What was before that is speculation on anybody's part.Do you consider Spirit immaterial? Jesus compared Spirit to the wind. The wind has "material" but does not necessarily have breadth, length, and depth.I think a meteorolgist would not necessarily agree with that thought.You say that intelligence can be organized, what do you mean? Could you further describe the existence of the Son prior to him being born of heavenly parents, for example is intelligence incorporeal, is intelligence immaterial? If intelligence always existed how can their be a father/son relationship?LDS scripture suggest intelligenc is matter, but most of the rest appears to be interpretation from scripture. Not sure that is matters from the perspective of our current state.You say that "The Holy Ghost does not have a body", I thought LDS taught that the Holy Ghost has a spirit body. Doesn't LDS scripture reveal that the pre-incarnate Christ had a spirit body?True. I was referring to a mortal body which houses our spirits.I would suggest "the Word" had a different meaning than authority or voice because scripture reveals the Son as "the Word of life ... eternal life" and also says that it by the Son "whom are all things".Another good perspective . . subject to God's authority/command, of course. It is not that the two different wills are overlappying. Christ, being true God and true man, has a human intellect and will, perfectly attuned and subject to his divine intellect and divine will, which he has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit.Still sounds like two different overlyapping wills.I agree that a fallen man has a single spiritual will, that is why a fallen man is not consider true God and true man like the only begotten Son of God.And yet I believe when we are born and when we've been baptized and repented and received the Holy Ghost we have moments of being clean and perfect and acceptable to God.Could you explain why you think the divine nature is both physical and spiritual.A divine birth leads me to the physical perspective, and a perfect spiritual will leads me to the other.How can Christ's glorified eternal body be unchangeable nature ... prior to the resurrection it is mortal flesh, after the resurrection it is glorified.How does the condition of the body before being glorified make its condition afterward changeable?
1dc Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 It appears you seem to view the three pesons as three seperate beings. I view the three distinct persons as one being because this is what Isaiah reveals. God is one but not solitary. I think I was citing your statment that they are 3 sentient persons. Hence they are distinct and not alone. At the same time they are One Godhead which is alone.It's not an either position . . they are both distinct and not independent.In LDS theology were their others with the one Godhead during creation?Depends on what you mean by the question. The 3 persons were the only 3 in the One Godhead. And at the same time we believe the rest of us also lived as spirit children with God before Adam gained his immortal body.The LDS Church teaches of a heavenly mother, where was the heavenly mother during creation if the Godhead was alone?As above, I believe the was alone phrase refers to the One Godhead as being the only Godhead. That doesn't preclude other spirits from assisting them.
johnny Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 1dc, The disciples of Christ worshiped him (Matt 28:9,17) and they prayed to him as equal of the Father (2Cor 12:8,9; Rom 10:12; 1Cor 1:2).
johnny Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 1dc, The language of Isaiah 43 and 44 seems to indicate that their were not other spirits assisting the Godhead. What verse would lead you to believe that their were other spirits assisting the Godhead?
Zakuska Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 Who where all these "sons of God" who shouted the Hosaana shout when the Foundations of the world where layed? (See Job 38:7) Apparently the Godhead wasn't so "alone" as Johnny wants us to think.
Zakuska Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 1dc, The disciples of Christ worshiped him (Matt 28:9,17) and they prayed to him as equal of the Father (2Cor 12:8,9; Rom 10:12; 1Cor 1:2). Yet Christ never made himself equal with his Father.John 13: 16 16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.John 14: 28 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
johnny Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 Hi Zakuska,Where have you been ... I haven't seen you posting much?I haven't been posting much either, work and family are keeping me busy.Look at verse 4 of Job it says "I laid the foundations" ... it doesn't say "We laid the foundation". The Sons of God came after the foundation.John 13 and John 14 are speaking of the time prior to the resurrection, I am speaking if the time after his resurrection.johnny
Zakuska Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 Been busy.Even after his ressurection Christ did not make himself equal with his father. (Try the book of Revelation.)Look at verse 4 of Job it says "I laid the foundations" ... it doesn't say "We laid the foundation". The Sons of God came after the foundation.Sons of God came after the Foundation?Ah but you forget?!Proverbs 822 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his aworks of old.23 I was set up from aeverlasting, from the bbeginning
johnny Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 Zakuska, Hebrews 1 says he is equal in glory to the Father. Again after his resurrection the disciples of Christ worshiped him (Matt 28:9,17) and they prayed to him as equal of the Father (2Cor 12:8,9; Rom 10:12; 1Cor 1:2). As I said earlier, God is the one Creator. He made all things by His Word and His Wisdom. Look at 1Cor 1:24.In the end the Son delivers up the Kingdom to the Father.
Zakuska Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 Yes but just because his Apostles did it doesn't mean it is correct.After all he told John to get up and worhsip God not him.
Joseph Antley Posted March 6, 2006 Author Posted March 6, 2006 Zakuska, Hebrews 1 says he is equal in glory to the Father. Again after his resurrection the disciples of Christ worshiped him (Matt 28:9,17) and they prayed to him as equal of the Father (2Cor 12:8,9; Rom 10:12; 1Cor 1:2). As I said earlier, God is the one Creator. He made all things by His Word and His Wisdom. Look at 1Cor 1:24.In the end the Son delivers up the Kingdom to the Father. Wait, so before Jesus' resurrection He was not equal with the Father, and after His resurrection He was? I thought God was eternal and unchanging
Zakuska Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 Apparently Johnny's God is more fluid than we give him credit for.
johnny Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 Antley, Before the resurrection the Son was in the form of a servant, Christ in His human nature is the servant of God the Father.
Joseph Antley Posted March 6, 2006 Author Posted March 6, 2006 Antley, Before the resurrection the Son was in the form of a servant, Christ in His human nature is the servant of God the Father. So God does change?
Zakuska Posted March 6, 2006 Posted March 6, 2006 And the Son does not do anything but what he has seen the father do before him.So apparently God has human nature as well.Cool Johnny.:Thumbs up:
1dc Posted March 7, 2006 Posted March 7, 2006 The disciples of Christ worshiped him (Matt 28:9,17) and they prayed to him as equal of the Father (2Cor 12:8,9; Rom 10:12; 1Cor 1:2). Why shouldn't one worship Him as a messenger of the One God?Now, as far as praying goes IMO you seem to be ignoring that following verses remind us that God is not Jesus alone. Paul's example in 2 Cor seems like perhaps an example of one of his early prayers.Calling on Christ's name is how LDS close prayers, as He instructed. I find that preferable over questionable interpretations taken on matters not teaching on that specific principle.[Thanks Zak for your comments also.]
johnny Posted March 7, 2006 Posted March 7, 2006 1dc, This is what the Catholic Church teaches:When we pray to "our" Father, we personally address the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. By doing so we do not divide the Godhead, since the Father is its "source and origin," but rather confess that the Son is eternally begotten by him and the Holy Spirit proceeds from him. We are not confusing the persons, for we confess that our communion is with the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, in their one Holy Spirit. The Holy Trinity is consubstantial and indivisible. When we pray to the Father, we adore and glorify him together with the Son and the Holy Spirit (CCC2789).
johnny Posted March 7, 2006 Posted March 7, 2006 1dc, Humans can have glorified resurrected bodies. Christ's has a glorified resurrected body and is divine.
livy111us Posted March 7, 2006 Posted March 7, 2006 I know I'm going to regret jumping back into this discussion, but, does not Peter say that we will be "partakers of the divine nature"? Which would make us divine, as well as glorified?
johnny Posted March 7, 2006 Posted March 7, 2006 1dc, I would agree we can be partakers of the divine nature ... I only mentioned the body because that was the question "1dc" asked.
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