Isaiah’s "Denial" Verses, Incomparability and the Divine Council

[GoCeltics]

On 10/14/2026 at 1:02 PM, Pyreaux said:

Yet the council and "gods" are in Abraham 3. To claim there is no "council" in Abraham 3 ignores what the chapter actually depicts. Abraham 3:22–23 is a gathered assembly of premortal spirits under God, by definition, is a council in Heaven.

Which of these spirits are deities?

[Pyreaux]

23 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Considering that Abraham 4:1 refers to them as “Gods,” it makes more sense that Jesus is specifically addressing these Gods in Abraham 3:24.

You’re assuming that the phrase “let us” includes the Gods plus many of the great and noble ones, while excluding everyone who was neither great nor noble. In other words, “let us, but not them.”

Abraham 4:1 clarifies who the “let us” refers to.

You still haven’t demonstrated how figures such as Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, or Uriel are mentioned in chapter 4. The text identifies no one else as assisting the Gods in creating things such as the Sun, the Moon, or Adam from the dust of the earth.

The "Gods" of 4:1 are "them" of 3:24. For some reason, you want "the Gods" to be one exclusive group of non-human, infinite deities, while completely separating them from the noble and great spirits. I imagine it's because you are stuck in a theological box where a being is either a 100% immutable God or a 100% non-divine being, with zero overlap or trajectory in between them.

You claim Abraham 4 excludes the noble spirits. But look at the textual chain.

Abraham 3:22-23: God stands among the "intelligences that were organized... among all these...the noble and great ones... God... said: These I will make my rulers... Abraham, thou art one of them..."

Abraham 3:24: "And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down... and we will make an earth..."

Abraham 4:1: "And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down... and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens..."

Who is "with Him", the noble and great spirit who was like God in 3:24? The other noble and great spirits.

When Abraham 4:1 says "and they, that is the Gods," the text is not introducing a mystery third party; it is giving the title ("the Gods" elohim) to Jehovah and the noble spirit leaders executing the creation. Abraham 4 is not in isolation, it does not invent a foreign concept here.

In the first Genesis Creation account, Genesis 1:1 "Bereshit bara Elohim... [the Gods created]" the earth, who are also the same "us" of Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image", which already depicts that Creation was a collaborative, plural endeavor involving the divine council. The first Creation account concludes in Genesis 2:4, "these are the generations [toledot] of the heavens" toledot denotes begettings, genealogy, and family, refers directly to the progeny of God and the bene Elohim were begotten [or adopted] at some point during Creation or before it.

In the Psalms Creation, Psalm 104:1-4, Day One the Lord wrapped Himself in a robe of divine light, establishes His court, and "make the winds [spirits] your messengers, fire and flame [glorious angels] your ministers", a verse that Hebrews 1:7 explicitly applies to the organization of heavenly beings at Creation.

In the Job Creation, Job 38:4-7 the "sons of God" [bene Elohim] shouted for joy to see the foundation of the earth laid and Job 15:7-8 where the "First Man" Adam stood in the council before the hills. While Michael isn't spelled out in Abraham 4, D&C 27:11 and D&C 107:54-55 has Michael the Archangel placed under Christ in the heavenly hierarchy as far as great spirits go, and Michael became Adam, "the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel."

23 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Which of these spirits are deities?

The great spirits that God made "rulers", aka the celestial princes of the nations. It's a position, they only have as much power and authority they were portioned and justifies the title of god. Lackluster gods, but gods.

Exodus 22:28 "You shall not curse the gods, and you shall not curse the ruler [prince] of your people". The word "gods" in this biblical context is a title given to the celestial princes of several nations. The "prince of Persia" in the Bible (Daniel 10) is a celestial patron assigned to the kingdom of Persia, while the "prince of Tyre" (Ezekiel 28) refers to the celestial patron assigned to Tyre, who is distingushed from the "king of Tyre" the human ruler.

Like in the Jewish Christian text Clementine Recognitions 3:42, "Thus the princes of the several nations are called gods. But Christ is God of princes".

Edited yesterday at 01:33 PM by Pyreaux