What if you want the church to be true,

[charity]

catholic wrote: "What makes seeing God the truth for one 'prophet' but not for another.... "

Whether he really did or not.

[Loki]

catholic wrote: "What makes seeing God the truth for one 'prophet' but not for another.... "

Whether he really did or not.

So how do we ascertain that he did? Do we take his word for it? Brian Mitchell claims he did. Should we take Brian Mitchell's word for it?

[gonzoman]

Also, your translation of my statement in Spanish leaves a little something to be desired.  In the interest of giving you the benefit of the doubt, I will assume your mistranslation is unintentional.

Get off his back--he translated the gist of what you wrote, or at least what I think you were trying to say.

Leave redman alone, for crying out loud. Enough already.

[charity]

Loki asks: "So how do we ascertain that he did? Do we take his word for it? Brian Mitchell claims he did. Should we take Brian Mitchell's word for it?"

By their fruits ye shall know them. What happened as a result of Joseph Smith's account of seeing God?

[Loki]

Loki asks: "So how do we ascertain that he did? Do we take his word for it? Brian Mitchell claims he did. Should we take Brian Mitchell's word for it?"

By their fruits ye shall know them. What happened as a result of Joseph Smith's account of seeing God?

Polygamy, and modern day child brides are a fruit of Joesph's Church. A ban on blacks and priesthood until well after the civil rights movement. A staunch opposition to equal rights for women. Are these all positive things? It's a mixed bag, you & I both know it.

If a mixed bag is the best you can claim, what is so much better then the other Churches upon the face of the earth?

[charity]

There are no child brides because of the Church

The priesthood was proclaimed to all worthy males when the Lord wanted it to be.

There was no opposition to rights for women, only bad laws.

Now, do you want to discuss the real fruits of the restored Church?

[Loki]

There are no child brides because of the Church

The priesthood was proclaimed to all worthy males when the Lord wanted it to be.

There was no opposition to rights for women, only bad laws.

Now, do you want to discuss the real fruits of the restored Church?

Where do the Fundamental LDS churches in southern Utah get their doctorine?

No, it wasn't. If it was the Lord's will, why didn't Hinckley proclaim it when directly asked? Instead, all he gave was it's behind us now.

The Church fought the ERA tooth and nail. ERA is not a bad law, LOL.

What does the Church give the people that the people wouldn't be capable of giving themselves? A story of Jesus and God appearing to Joesph, leading to a modern day set of elderly men that are so far disconnected from the original Church it'll make your head spin.

Please, Charity, tell me what fruits the Church (not the people) have given the world that are so worthwhile.

Also, simply because an organization has done good things, doesn't bear any truth to their outlandish claims.

[Abulafia]

Now, do you want to discuss the real fruits of the restored Church?

Hi Charity, long time no converse!!!!

To me, you bring up a really, really interesting point.

On a dynamic level, has the church helped some to be better, more christlike, loving people who serve their family, their community and their country. Yep. You bet.

Does its culture, dogma and ethics help all people. Nope.

Do all christian churches help some of their members to become better people. Yep. You bet. Do they help all people. Nope

Does the Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu faiths help their members become better people. Yep. You bet. Do they help all people. Nope

Can atheists and agnostics live ethical lives that lead them to become better people. Yep. Does atheism and agnosticism help all people to be better. Nope.

So what are the fruits?

[Mark Beesley]

Dill Pickles wrote:

Those who seek proof seek to walk outside of God's plan, and could possibly be seeking their own destruction.

I agree 100 percent!!! So, quit asking for proof son.

[charity]

Loki, evil people can come up with any rationalization for their evil works. You could decide that since the EV churches proclaim that God wants to bless them, that you are justified in stealing as much as you want. That wouldn't be the EV church's fault.

The proclamation was not given when President Hinckley was the Prophet. Did you ask President Kimball?

There is a real substantiative discussion about the negative aspects of the ERA legislation. That is worthy of another thread. So don't try to derail this discussion.

What has the Church given the world? The way back to Heavenly Father. When Jesus restored His Church through the Prophet Joseph Smith, it was the greatest gift to the world of this dispensation. The fruits of that are the millions of people who have entered into the baptismal covenant, and the millions and millions of people already gone on who have benefitted through proxy work. If you don't believe in God, or in the plan of salvation, that doesn't mean anything to you, of course. But that doesn't change the truth.

[Mark Beesley]

Loki wrote:

Where do the Fundamental LDS churches in southern Utah get their doctorine?

There are no "Fundamental LDS churches" in southern Utah. There is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are some Cathlic churches, and Lutheran, and Methodist, etc. There are even some apostate groups who have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But there is no such thing as "Fundamental LDS churches."

Loki wrote:

The Church fought the ERA tooth and nail. ERA is not a bad law, LOL.

Are you suggesting that the ERA failed because of LDS opposition to it. If only we had such power!

Loki wrote:

What does the Church give the people that the people wouldn't be capable of giving themselves?

Priesthood ordinances.

. . . . . . .

I agree with Abulafia that the LDS Church does not have a monopoly on good works. Nor does every person have the spiritual aptitude to benefit from the programs of the LDS Church. No doubt the Lord imparts of His spirit to all men (and women), in all cultures, in all times, according to that which they are able to receive. That is why I have felt spiritual enlightment as a practicing Buddhist and Spritualist. But I prefer now, the fullness of the Gospel that I get as a Mormon.

[Dill Pickles]

Dill Pickles wrote:

Those who seek proof seek to walk outside of God's plan, and could possibly be seeking their own destruction.

I agree 100 percent!!! So, quit asking for proof son.

from the Pickle jar: I don't seek proof from God, mbeesley, only from those among men who make claims they don't back up. If you don't see the difference, I can't help you.

And please don't call me son. I'm probably a much greyer Pickle than you are.

[Abulafia]

Please, Charity, tell me what fruits the Church (not the people) have given the world that are so worthwhile.

That's two of us asking you now Charity.

Can you explain what you mean by fruits!!

Abulafia

[Mark Beesley]

Dill Pickles wrote:

I don't seek proof from God, mbeesley, only from those among men who make claims they don't back up. If you don't see the difference, I can't help you.

If I received my proof from God, and you are now asking for it, it is the same as you asking for proof from God. If you can't see the difference, not even God can help you.

And please don't call me son. I'm probably a much greyer Pickle than you are.

Ok Bubba. Sorry.

[charity]

Hello, Abulafia,

The real fruits are those that I just posted to Loki. Heavenly Father's whole purpose is to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." No other church can do that. The authority to perform the saving ordinances rest solely with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Does this mean that every other church is"bad?" Of course not. They can help people learn to more fully live the Gospel. But they cannot save. Families will not be reunited on the other side of this life through anything done by any other church. And they don't like to hear this, I know.

You asked if culture, dogma, and ethics help all people. I don't know how you would apply culture, ethics and dogma. However, the doctrines of the Church will help all people. Are there people who are not prepared to accept the Gospel and will they become uncomfortable? I think so.

You asked if all Christian churches help some or all of their members to become better people. Again, I would say that to the extent that they teach true Christianity, all Christian churches would help all of their members, not just some.

YOu asked if Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu faithss would help all or some of their members become better people. Again, I would say that to the extent they preach truth, which comes from God, yes, they would help all of their member, not just some.

You asked if atheists and agnostics could live ethical lives that lead them to become better people. I would agree. But it is short term only. Mortal life only, and then they are in sad shape.

So what are the fruits? Like I said before, the fruits of the Church are the salvation of its members. That is the purpose of the Church. We do other things like humanitarian service, and have a beautiful choir, and urge people to serve their neighbors, but the purpose of Christ's Church are to return Heavenly Father's children to Him.

[Dill Pickles]

Dill Pickles wrote:

from the Pickle jar: perhaps we're talking past each other again, mbeesley. Perhaps you could explain what you mean when you say you know? Because I don't want to put words under your fingers that aren't there. Thanks.

When you walk outside with your eyes open, and you look up and see the sun, and feel its warmth, you know that the sun came up that morning.

When you stand by a railroad track with your eyes open, and you see a train speeding by, hear the roar of the engine, and feel the wind rush past, you know that a train just passed you.

That is what I mean when I say I know.

from the Pickle jar: actually, if you know what you know as well as you know that the sun comes up, you don't know much, because the sun does not come up. The sun does not move at all. It's the earth that moves, rotating on its axis and revolving around the sun in its orbit. Are you sure you want to use that analogy?

[Dill Pickles]

Dill Pickles wrote:

I don't seek proof from God, mbeesley, only from those among men who make claims they don't back up. If you don't see the difference, I can't help you.

If I received my proof from God, and you are now asking for it, it is the same as you asking for proof from God. If you can't see the difference, not even God can help you.

And please don't call me son. I'm probably a much greyer Pickle than you are.

Ok Bubba. Sorry.

from the Pickle jar: no, mbeesley, no matter how you might like to believe that it is indeed so, you are not God. You do not speak for God. Asking for proof from you is not the same as asking for proof from God. If I wanted to ask for proof from God, I certainly wouldn't ask you nor any other man; I'd ask God.

You made some claims. Either back them up or withdraw them. Your testimony of their truthfulness and your repetition of the same answers over and over do not constitute a proof of the truthfulness of your claims. So please, cease and desist in making unsubstantiated claims that you either cannot or will not provide proof for. You cannot prove that God exists; neither can charity. Appealing to Joseph no more helps your argument than appealing to your testimony. We only have his word. And his word has not been proven to be universally unassailable. You believe him; others do not. You have had a spiritual manifestation of some unrevealed sort. Others have had equally spirutual manifestations of the exact opposite. Neither can prove or disprove the other. There is still debate and until there is proof, there will always be debate.

I repeat my request once more for those who don't want to read the last 20 pages: prove God exists.

PS. my name is Dill Pickles. Refer to me only as Dill or Pickles, thank you.

[charity]

Dill, the proof that God exists is available to anyone who seeks the proof. But it has to come from within the individual by way of a spiritual witness. No one mortal can prove to another mortal that God exists. But that doesn't mean the proof is not there. It is only there for those who can accept it. And those who cannot, are refusing the same standard of proof that exists for many things in the world. That they are willing to use a double standard says more about the individual, than the quality of proof.

Edited, because I hadn't made myself clear. The proof is in a spiritual witness.

[ave maria]

Dill, the proof that God exists if available to anyone who seeks the proof. But it has to come from the individual. No one mortal can prove to another mortal that God exists. But that doesn't mean the proof is not there. It is only there for those who can accept it. And those who cannot, are refusing the same standard of proof that exists for many things in the world. That they are willing to use a double standard says more about the individual, than the quality of proof.

Actually, I would respectfully disagree.

Conclusive proof that God exists comes from no individual. It can come only from God.

[Loki]

Loki wrote:

Where do the Fundamental LDS churches in southern Utah get their doctorine?

There are no "Fundamental LDS churches" in southern Utah. There is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are some Cathlic churches, and Lutheran, and Methodist, etc. There are even some apostate groups who have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But there is no such thing as "Fundamental LDS churches."

Loki wrote:

The Church fought the ERA tooth and nail. ERA is not a bad law, LOL.

Are you suggesting that the ERA failed because of LDS opposition to it. If only we had such power!

Loki wrote:

What does the Church give the people that the people wouldn't be capable of giving themselves?

Priesthood ordinances.

. . . . . . .

I agree with Abulafia that the LDS Church does not have a monopoly on good works. Nor does every person have the spiritual aptitude to benefit from the programs of the LDS Church. No doubt the Lord imparts of His spirit to all men (and women), in all cultures, in all times, according to that which they are able to receive. That is why I have felt spiritual enlightment as a practicing Buddhist and Spritualist. But I prefer now, the fullness of the Gospel that I get as a Mormon.

These FLDS Churches in Southern Utah are part of Joesph Smith's Church. They have a different lineage of Prophets back to Joesph, but they are intact still the same. What makes any claim better then the other?

I'm not saying the LDS Church had the final say that ERA die, but they stood in opposition to it

And don't tell me that polygamy is not doctorinal, you know as well as I that it is. Don't even try to go down that road.

[charity]

Ave, that was what I meant to say. Proof is within the individual in terms of the spiritual witness. I didn't mean to say a mere mortal originates the proof.

How did you do with regards to the hurricane?

[ave maria]

How did you do with regards to the hurricane?

Hasn't hit yet, and we're nearly 2,000 miles away watching on CNN, hoping we still have a home tomorrow.

[charity]

Loki, when the Church says the fundamentalists are not a part of the Church, they aren't. They can be their own church, but they can't be said to be a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When Joseph Smith died, the authority went to the Quorum of the Twelve. No one else could have it. So they have no authority because they were not given it.

But they can claim all they want. They can claim to be the true church of Elvis if they want, and fight the real one here on Portland, OR.

[Loki]

Loki, when the Church says the fundamentalists are not a part of the Church, they aren't. They can be their own church, but they can't be said to be a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When Joseph Smith died, the authority went to the Quorum of the Twelve. No one else could have it. So they have no authority because they were not given it.

But they can claim all they want. They can claim to be the true church of Elvis if they want, and fight the real one here on Portland, OR.

They are not a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Very true. They are offshoots of Joesph's original Church, however. Joesph said that the authority would go to his son, not the Quorum of the Twelve. Are we to believe Joesph directly?

The claim to Authority directly from God is a very bold one, and it will take much more then a "because I said so" to convince any reasonable person.

[charity]

Loki, you wrote: "The claim to Authority directly from God is a very bold one, and it will take much more then a "because I said so" to convince any reasonable person."

The prophets and Jesus Himself claimed the Authority from God. Reason has always been an enemy to faith. And faith always wins in the end.