James 1:5

[Benji]

I was born and raised in a devout Mormon home with parents who were extremely active. I was always very inquisitive from a very young age and would often ask questions that no one had very good answers for. I became quite disillusioned with Mormonism as a teenager and had my name removed just prior to turning 20. I am now 30 and have had an interesting journey for the past 10 years.

Here is the famous verse from the KJV:

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him (1:5).

As I thought about this, it dawned on me that James is speaking to people who lack wisdom. "If any of you lack wisdom," he says. So I asked myself, what is wisdom? Here are some definitions from dictionary.com:

1. The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.

2. Common sense; good judgment.

Okay, so if I lack the ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting, I should ask God. If I lack insight, common sense, or good judgment, I should ask and He will enlighten me. That sounds reasonable. And heaven knows that I most certainly do lack wisdom in many areas. But there are areas that I am able to discern and judge what is true, right, and lasting. There are many areas where I have insight, common sense, and good judgment. In these areas, I don't need to ask of God because he gave me a brain and therefore, I presume, He intends for me to use it. Do I need to pray and ask if the sky is blue? If water is wet? Clearly not. And when I looked at the numerous problems with Mormon scripture/history, it became painfully obvious to me that the same truth applies.

Benji

[charity]

Benji, Your argument appears sound. The instruction seems that we only need to opportune God if we lack wisdom. But are we so sure of what we know? 2 Ne. 9: 28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

?????

[TruthFirst]

Benji, I am in complete agreeance with you.

[Benji]

Hello Charity,

As I said, there are numerous areas where I lack wisdom and in those cases I will adhere to what James is saying. When it comes to things like Mormon history/scripture/doctrine, the preponderance of evidence weighs heavily against Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Why would I need to ask for wisdom when God has given me a brain that can discern when things do not add up?

Wes

[charity]

Benji, how sure can you be of what you know when other people with brains, also, find the prepondance of the evidence in favor of Joseph, Brigham and the Church? Can you say your brain power is better than theirs? Or is there enough ambiguity that you may not be right after all?

[Benji]

Charity,

Lots of people believe lots of different things for lots of different reasons. I'm just saying that the whole idea of asking for wisdom from God seems unnecessary in certain situations. I don't need to ask God about things that are self-evident.

Wes

[charity]

I repeat, how can you be so sure those things are self-evident when other people who are extremely intelligent don't also find them self-evident in the way you do?

[Meta]

Charity,

Lots of people believe lots of different things for lots of different reasons. I'm just saying that the whole idea of asking for wisdom from God seems unnecessary in certain situations. I don't need to ask God about things that are self-evident.

Wes

The problem that I have, Benji, is that you and I don't know everything. We don't have a perfect knowledge, and just because something may seem right or wrong, it doesn't mean it IS right or wrong. God doesn't want us to ask which orange juice to buy in the store, but he doesn't expect us to assume that other human's history of the church is valid. That means you should pray, even if you are an active member of the church, to find out if the things the people of the earlier days sad was true.

I think it is arrogant thinking we know enough about something that we shouldn't ask our Heavenly Father for confirmation.

[ericbo33]

I think alot of people just believe because thats the way they were raised. Many never really question, like my TBM wife for example

[hondo]

We don't need wisdom about the sky being blue or is water wet or what not, but maybe a color blind person might or someone who has no touch sense might. they would have to rely on the testimony of others to let them know these are real at least to us who are not color blind or no touch sense. The things we should be praying about to know their truths are is Jesus the Christ, is Joseph a Prophet, is the bible true, the Book of Mormon true the cchurch true. These things we need the witness from the Holy Ghost about. I personally don't need the witness about the sky being blue. Matters about my belief in God and his plan of happiness I do. On a related vein if we don't believe the book of mormon is true knowing the details of its translation won't convert or convince you DC 5:7

[Dale]

Hi,

Benji I read anti-Restoration material on a regular basis. A book I have been reading the last couple of weeks is Mormonism Unmasked by R.Philip roberts. The books content isn't much different that the anti-Mormon websites content I have browsed. I don't agree the numerous problems arn't resolveable. I find reading such stuff has strenghtened my belief in church history, Jesus & Joseph Smith. I have the ability to use logic & reason myself. I rejected what the critics say after years of studying the same issues.

I have had many critics raise every conceiveable issue on the boards I attend & I find nothing that forces me not to believe. I have had two friends at work try & witness to me throwing all the trivia they could at me. I beat off off the issues because frankly I was more prepared than they were.

Now things are not so self evident or we both would be agreeing about the numerous problems in Mormonism list. All of the popular problems are discussed on the FAIR board without critics & Pro-Restoration believers coming to the same conclusions.

Joseph Smith was concerned mans logic & reason wasn't enough to help him choose a faith. I believe this as i am exposed to other faiths logic & reason about Mormonism all of the time. I have come to disbelieve the faiths of those who attack restoration belief.

I admit I am strange to LDS. I am Ex-Mormon. But I am a convert to the Community of christ formerly known as the Reorganized LDS Church. I retain my belief in the Book of Mormon as scripture.

Sincerely,

Dale

[mnn727]

I became quite disillusioned with Mormonism as a teenager and had my name removed just prior to turning 20. I am now 30 and have had an interesting journey for the past 10 years.

So Benji, I am curious, after 10 years as a non-member, why do you feel the need to post here? I really am curious, this is NOT an attack.

[Dale]

I am concerned many Ex-LDS fall prey to self appointed subject matter experts. I prefer Benji to post her because I feel most critics need to be exposed to solutions to their issues. I am 36 you should seee my growing collection of anti-Mormon materials. I have 13 notebooks of articles I have collected. A lot of them anti_mormon. I have anti-Mormon films, James Whites Witnessing To Mormons Seminar. I have a 27 cassette radio show exposing Mormonisms errors. I try & buy all the popular books like Mormonism Shadow or Reality? & Mormonism 101. Among Ex-RLDS Reorganized LDS Church: Is It Christian? by Carol Hanson is pretty popular. I have exposed myself to everything the logic & reason of the critics can invent.

Why is my faith strong? Basically I feel ex-LDS & Community of Christ leave for answerable trivia. I decided I wasn't giving up on my beliefs for the wrong reasons.

[Benji]

I repeat, how can you be so sure those things are self-evident when other people who are extremely intelligent don't also find them self-evident in the way you do?

Charity,

Are you familiar with the issues I am referring to?

Benji

[Benji]

The problem that I have, Benji, is that you and I don't know everything. We don't have a perfect knowledge, and just because something may seem right or wrong, it doesn't mean it IS right or wrong. God doesn't want us to ask which orange juice to buy in the store, but he doesn't expect us to assume that other human's history of the church is valid. That means you should pray, even if you are an active member of the church, to find out if the things the people of the earlier days sad was true.

I think it is arrogant thinking we know enough about something that we shouldn't ask our Heavenly Father for confirmation.

Meta,

You're right, we don't know everything. I am not claiming to know everything. I'm just saying that some things are very obvious and plain.

Benji

[Benji]

I think alot of people just believe because thats the way they were raised. Many never really question, like my TBM wife for example

I agree ericbo33

Benji

[Benji]

We don't need wisdom about the sky being blue or is water wet or what not, but maybe a color blind person might or someone who has no touch sense might. they would have to rely on the testimony of others to let them know these are real at least to us who are not color blind or no touch sense. The things we should be praying about to know their truths are is Jesus the Christ, is Joseph a Prophet, is the bible true, the Book of Mormon true the cchurch true. These things we need the witness from the Holy Ghost about. I personally don't need the witness about the sky being blue. Matters about my belief in God and his plan of happiness I do. On a related vein if we don't believe the book of mormon is true knowing the details of its translation won't convert or convince you DC 5:7

Hondo,

I am curious if you think a man's character is indicative of anything about him? Just because someone claims to be a prophet it doesn't mean I need to pray and ask if they really are. People make claims all the time. It would be ridiculous to pray about every claim that was made. Joseph Smith's character was not the character of a prophet. Neither was Brigham Young's. This issue alone is enough for me to dismiss their claims but there are so many more.

Wes

[charity]

Benji, I looked at your links. I've seen that and more. I am not disturbed, teetering on a brink or convinced. Did you think I was speaking out of ignorance?

I would say you really know very little about the personal characteristics of either Joseph or Brigham. Strong leaders are lightning rods. They attract both followers and detractors. You seem to have gone in one camp. I have gone in the other.

Have you looked at the FAIR, FARMS, and SHIELDS websites?

[Benji]

So Benji, I am curious, after 10 years as a non-member, why do you feel the need to post here? I really am curious, this is NOT an attack.

Well mnn727, as someone who was born and raised in Mormonism, it is a big part of my story. My father is still active and my uncle is a bishop. I think part of the reason I feel the need to post here is because I feel the LDS church has been less than forthcoming with much of its history. I was amazed at how much I was never told about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Also, being raised Mormon is a unique experience that many on this board share. I feel it is important to discuss these matters because they have profound ramifications.

Benji

[Benji]

Benji, I looked at your links. I've seen that and more. I am not convinced. Did you think I was speaking out of ignorance?

Have you looked at the FAIR, FARMS, and SHIELDS websites?

Charity,

I wasn't sure if you were familiar with the numerous problems with Mormon history/scripture/doctrine. That's why I asked. I have seen the FAIR, FARMS, and SHIELDS websites and they don't adequately address these issues.

Benji

[charity]

Benji, I am plenty familiar with what some people think are problems with Mormon history/scripture/doctrine. You think FAIR, et al. don't adequately address the issues. I don't think what your sources bring up are convincing. Here we are.

[Benji]

Benji, I am plenty familiar with what some people think are problems with Mormon history/scripture/doctrine. You think FAIR, et al. don't adequately address the issues. I don't think what your sources bring up are convincing. Here we are.

Charity,

I was never trying to convince you. However, I am curious how you reconcile all of these things you are plenty familiar with.

Benji

[charity]

Benji, Lots of what is there is supposition and speculation. Where there could be two different interpretations, the anti's choose one, I choose the other. And then there are the downright, provable lies. When lies are put forth repeatedly after they have been refuted, then it is hard to take the rest of the accusation seriously. Where there appears to be unrefutable evidence of some derogatory information, I am willing to take a wait and see attitude for the real story to come out.

I suppose it isn't fair in an intellectual argument. But you see, I have a personal witness from the Holy Ghost, and it isn't just some strong emotions or ideas, as people who have not had the experience themselves want to believe. I know, in a way that is not open to doubt. I did have questions. I looked at the information out there. When I asked for a witness, I was granted one. Now there are no doubts.

There may be some who believe blindly, never having studied the issue. I am not one of those.

[Zakuska]

I wonder if Benji knows who Wisdom Is. (Prov He sure is Lacking.

[BCSpace]

There are many areas where I have insight, common sense, and good judgment. In these areas, I don't need to ask of God because he gave me a brain and therefore, I presume, He intends for me to use it. Do I need to pray and ask if the sky is blue? If water is wet? Clearly not.

Of course. But because the natural man is an enemy to God, you'll need wisdom from God to exceed or transcend your natural capabilities which is required for salvation.

And when I looked at the numerous problems with Mormon scripture/history, it became painfully obvious to me that the same truth applies.

Many people say this, but never they never give any examples.