CV75

Since the person is having the experience of progress or moving forward and not the positions (which are acted upon by their passing through), I think the idea of progress or a person moving forward requires their experiences to happen in a certain order within the positions or estates along the eternal round. Abraham 3 places a lot of emphasis on our reckoning in relation to various planets and stars (and their orders) which are set to "give light". I recognize that this is not a literal cosmology but a teaching mechanism about our progress.

I think the idea of progress requires things to happen in a certain order within the eternal round. There is no reference describing existence as one eternal round, only that the Lord's course, which I take to mean His eternal plan of happiness (and its execution), is one eternal round. This is the phrase used in the Book of Mormon and D&C. That the Lord speaks about this in Abraham 3 in the future tense shows the role of and need for linear action and activity: 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them... The Creation took place before the Fall, the Fall before the Lord's advent in the flesh; His advent before His victory and second coming, etc. Probation before Judgement.

Because the spiritual creation of the earth followed the war in heaven, we lived as spirits in another place, in Heavenly Father's presence. As His children, we were organized into a higher order than that which we held previously (See D&C 93: 29 - 31; Abraham 3:21 - 24). Note that unless otherwise specified, intelligences, spirits, man and souls are used interchangeably. And "intelligence" [a divine property of spirits] is not, and is different than, "intelligences" [spirits with intelligence]. D&C 29 Man ["For man is spirit -- verse 33] was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. 31 Behold, here is the agency of man... Abraham 21 I dwell in the midst of them all [intelligent spirits, verses 18, 19]; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen. 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God...

That is why we need to look at the whole saying, not just the bolded part: "And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." It means that they who honor God's will in their first estate as spirits shall be added upon with a second probationary estate as mortal souls (the spirit and body together); and they who honor not God in their first estate shall not have glory in the second estate as do those who keep their first estate, but shall be cast down as spirits, not souls; and they who honor God's will in their second probationary estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever, that is, in the resurrection as redeemed, immortal souls.

I agree that writing something down in the voice of God does not automatically mean that God spoke those words or gave that revelation. Fortunately, we learn the doctrine of Christ from a variety of sources along life’s path and can freely try it out when haply we find it. I see that Pyreaux provided a context for Joseph Smith's practice. With regards to the theology of meditation, if you were to edit Joseph Smith’s revelations (or the Book of Mormon) removing “voice of God” text, would their meaning change; would they convey any other than the voice, will, mind, word or power of God for abiding in the doctrine of Christ (potential questions over points of doctrine aside)? Regarding oral tradition and "voice", I think it quite possible that Jesus’ disciples remembered themes, teachings, and style that Jesus gave them after His resurrection (much like He did with the Nephites) and by revelation many decades later. I would go so far as to say that He originally wrote down many of His teachings and sermons.

This is a fine working model to draw from the testimony of D&C 93. While truth (knowledge of things of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come) and the light of truth (intelligence, or the light of knowledge of things as they are, were, and are to come) were not created or made, God places, or organizes, them (creates them in that sense) in the sphere in which they can act (exercise agency) which in turn defines their existence (past, present and to come). They act upon the light which is plainly manifest, the light which is in and through all things (D&C 88). The elements are eternal also; there is a difference between intelligence which acts and things which are acted upon but the light of Christ is in them all. The light of Christ comes by His fulness of truth and the light of truth as He exercised His agency to define His existence within the sphere God placed Him, an existence consisting of His infinite atonement from before the foundation of the world (the first 14 verses of Section 93). The rest as we learn it in this estate is the doctrine of Christ. Thus, I believe the veil between the first and second estates are a function of our intelligence, Christ’s intelligence being the greatest of all our Heavenly Father’s children. It seems that beginning very early in His mortal life He consistently pierced the Veil with increasing depth grace for grace in step with His physical ability to articulate it (and at the same time judiciously – perfectly -- withhold and share), its ultimate dissolution symbolized in the renting of the temple veil upon His death upon the cross.

Yes, I think there are many ways to look at it. I find descriptions of either very interesting. The same 3 questions would apply to glory as to location.

Possible in my opinion. In relation to the first estate, (1) from where are they descending ("We ill go down.."); (2) where or what is the space to which they are they descending ("...for there is space there..."); and (3) are the materials in location/area/kingdom (1) or in an area adjacent to location/area/kingdom (2)? Are several estates represented: The post-mortal Father and those pre-mortals selected to work with Him on this; "these" (all of the Father's spirit children: first estate); space; materials; earth; probation (second estate); the added-upon kingdom(s) (other estates).

Bukowski forgot his password and cannot get in -- I am trying to get the Administrators' attention to provide instructions on how he can get it back.

Can anyone help mfbukowski reset his password? He hasn't been able to participate because of that... when I posed the question to the "Contact Us" message, I got back a terse autoreply that they don't exaplin why posters are banned. LOL Send me the instructions and I will get them to him. Thank you in advance! PS Don't keep the faith: share it!