Stone Box

[volgadon]

In my honest opinion the LDS faith, for whatever reason ( I think I know but I won't share it here) has gone beyond the mark and evolved into someting that is very similar to what the Rabbi's did with the Law of Moses. They couldn't leave it as it was, they had to turn it into something that became grievous to be born.

To be frank, Jesus did the same thing in the Sermon on the Mt., which includes classic instances of building a hedge aroundthe law.

[ERayR]

Calmoriah, you're right, some people need that reward but I'm not one to give rewards much and I don't need them either. MM, I'll have to try that out using the scriptures. Thanks you two.

I need to pinpoint what exactly I don't like about it. Last week my neighbor was helping her husband landscape their backyard. Apparently a boulder rolled on her foot and she sprained it. She had to wear a large boot and struggled to walk, even had to crawl up her stairs. When I heard what had happened I called to tell her I wanted to take dinner over. She said I didn't need to but maybe if I need the blessings then I should do it. Well I told her I don't care about the blessings, just wanted to help out. Is this a mormon thing? I always hear this said on different occasions. This is basically all I was meaning, I want to do something because it's the nice thing to do, not to get anything out of it.

Nope not just a Mormon thing.

[go_utes01]

I don't think I disagree with you here. I think there are examples where the Church has created policy not by revelation, but because it appealed to the leader of the Church at the time. Organized religion too often falls into the trap of following the dictates of man rather than following, strictly, the dictates of God. This per se is not bad unless these policies are given priority and those more important things of the kingdom are put aside or de-emphasized. On the reverse side, it is far too easy for followers to conclude, God does it, I don't have to do anything really hard. For these, the refrain, "depart from me...I never knew you" is too clear. This world is about becoming like our Savior; to learn to hunger after righteousness so much that God is our whole focus. It is this focus that becomes a trap for too many leaders. I have concluded that every time we create a new rule, a new law, and new policy, we take one step away from Jesus Christ and his gospel. I still believe it is true. The whole law is summed up in the two great commandments; there is no need for any other. Some will fall; some will not make the same choices as others, but as we all strive to follow the Savior, we will become of one mind, one heart, and one Spirit.

I believe that the leaders of the LDS Church are good men and women who have the best interest of the members in mind when making new policies/programs. That does not mean that the new policies/programs are perfect, but they are designed to help members to grow spiritually to become more like Christ (since that is our purpose on earth). I believe each individual member and family is responsible for working out their own salvation. If, through prayerful studying, practicing and pondering, you come to find that a new policy or program does not help you, individually, to become more Christ-like, you are free to modify your actions in a way that will help you on your personal journey to becoming more Christ-like.

[Palerider]

I believe that the leaders of the LDS Church are good men and women who have the best interest of the members in mind when making new policies/programs. That does not mean that the new policies/programs are perfect, but they are designed to help members to grow spiritually to become more like Christ (since that is our purpose on earth). I believe each individual member and family is responsible for working out their own salvation. If, through prayerful studying, practicing and pondering, you come to find that a new policy or program does not help you, individually, to become more Christ-like, you are free to modify your actions in a way that will help you on your personal journey to becoming more Christ-like.

Unfortunately the culture created in the LDS faith does not support what you are saying here. I have read a number of personal histories where a man's "progress" in the church was being stymied because of his reluctance to enter into plural marriage.

What you are speaking of is the much despised "buffet style" of picking and choosing what you will obey from the gospel table. It does not fly well in the LDS church.

[Palerider]

To be frank, Jesus did the same thing in the Sermon on the Mt., which includes classic instances of building a hedge aroundthe law.

The only difference being that He was the Law Giver and the authority of those who would change it of their own accord is what is in doubt.

[go_utes01]

Unfortunately the culture created in the LDS faith does not support what you are saying here. I have read a number of personal histories where a man's "progress" in the church was being stymied because of his reluctance to enter into plural marriage.

What you are speaking of is the much despised "buffet style" of picking and choosing what you will obey from the gospel table. It does not fly well in the LDS church.

Well I have been in the Mormon church for over a decade and have had no problem with this approach. Btw, I am not proposing a buffet-style approach to the "gospel." What I am suggesting is that we are each personally responsible for our own salvation and the Church provides programs and policies that aid in our personal progression, but the implementation of those policies and programs in our personal lives, is something mostly left up to the individual and family.

[Palerider]

Of course it can become that way. The way to avoid that is to seek God's will in all things and listen to the Spirit telling us what we should or shouldn't do.

Or do you believe we should ignore the Spirit if it tells us to do something because we just might cross over from being obedient into something else?

I find the Saviour's yoke exceedingly light actually, nothing he asks of me is a burden, but a blessing.

Your comment really had nothing to do with mine, which was about how the Lord helps us grow spiritually.

I think it went to the heart of what you were trying to say.

The gospel is not a "program" devised to make one have a "spiritual experience".

It is news of a relationship between God and Man that can be aided by man but also hindered by him just as easily. The difficulty for many is recognizing when spiritual growth is actually occuring and when one is just being "programmed".

I prefer to not rely very heavily on the "arm of flesh".

Edited May 21, 2013 by Palerider

[Palerider]

Well I have been in the Mormon church for over a decade and have had no problem with this approach. Btw, I am not proposing a buffet-style approach to the "gospel." What I am suggesting is that we are each personally responsible for our own salvation and the Church provides programs and policies that aid in our personal progression, but the implementation of those policies and programs in our personal lives, is something mostly left up to the individual and family.

Try administering the sacrament with a non-white shirt and let me know how you fair.

[go_utes01]

I think it went to the heart of what you were trying to say.

The gospel is not a "program" devised to make one have a "spiritual experience".

It is news of a relationship between God and Man that can be aided by man but also hindered by him just as easily. The difficulty for many is recognizing when spiritual growth is actually occuring and when one is just being "programmed".

I prefer to not rely very heavily on the "arm of flesh".

From reading Calmoriah's posts it is clear that Calmoriah also does not rely very heavily on the "arm of flesh." In fact, Calmoriah specifically stated, " The way to avoid that is to seek God's will in all things and listen to the Spirit telling us what we should or shouldn't do." Does not sound like relying on the arm of flesh to me. In the LDS faith, we are repeatedly admonished to follow the spirit and let the spirit guide is, as well as to pray constantly, etc. and to be wary of relying on the arm of flesh or philosophies of men.

Edited May 21, 2013 by go_utes01

[go_utes01]

Try administering the sacrament with a non-white shirt and let me know how you fair.

I have seen it done many times. No problem. I think it is fine that the Church has an expectation of certain standard of clothing in officiating in sacred ordinances, but I have seen the sacrament administered in sandals, sans tie, jeans, etc. - not encouraged, but totally acceptable.

Edited May 21, 2013 by go_utes01

[Palerider]

I don't think I disagree with you here. I think there are examples where the Church has created policy not by revelation, but because it appealed to the leader of the Church at the time. Organized religion too often falls into the trap of following the dictates of man rather than following, strictly, the dictates of God. This per se is not bad unless these policies are given priority and those more important things of the kingdom are put aside or de-emphasized. On the reverse side, it is far too easy for followers to conclude, God does it, I don't have to do anything really hard. For these, the refrain, "depart from me...I never knew you" is too clear. This world is about becoming like our Savior; to learn to hunger after righteousness so much that God is our whole focus. It is this focus that becomes a trap for too many leaders. I have concluded that every time we create a new rule, a new law, and new policy, we take one step away from Jesus Christ and his gospel. I still believe it is true. The whole law is summed up in the two great commandments; there is no need for any other. Some will fall; some will not make the same choices as others, but as we all strive to follow the Savior, we will become of one mind, one heart, and one Spirit.

I agree.

[Palerider]

I have seen it done many times. No problem. I think it is fine that the Church has an expectation of certain standard of clothing in officiating in sacred ordinances, but I have seen the sacrament administered in sandals, sans tie, jeans, etc. - not encouraged, but totally acceptable.

Acceptable under certain circumstances but definitely not the rule.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Palerider

[go_utes01]

Acceptable under certain circumstances but definitely not the rule.

Why would we need a rule - it seems weird that you would be calling for a specific rule.

[Palerider]

From reading Calmoriah's posts it is clear that Calmoriah also does not rely very heavily on the "arm of flesh." In fact, Calmoriah specifically stated, " The way to avoid that is to seek God's will in all things and listen to the Spirit telling us what we should or shouldn't do." Does not sound like relying on the arm of flesh to me. In the LDS faith, we are repeatedly admonished to follow the spirit and let the spirit guide is, as well as to pray constantly, etc. and to be wary of relying on the arm of flesh or philosophies of men.

I agree, but in the LDS faith, when there is a disagreement on the direction the Spirit is leading, the opinion of the presiding authority (arm of flesh) always takes precedence.

And not noly that, but even if/when the authority turns out to be wrong, one is expected not to complain but to obey anyway because God will bless them in spite of the authority being wrong. Somehow I don't see the Savior approving of this.

[Palerider]

Why would we need a rule - it seems weird that you would be calling for a specific rule.

Turn of phrase.

[MormonMason]

Try administering the sacrament with a non-white shirt and let me know how you fair.

Sounds like some Bishops aren't getting with the program...

Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate. Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church.

( https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/priesthood-ordinances-and-blessings?lang=eng#20.4.1 )

[bubbachen]

Hey Palerider, forgive me if the answer to my question is already public knowledge - if I may be so bold as to ask what denomination of mainline Christianity you ascribe to? I ask because I'm a convert to the LDS Church, having grown up going to Methodist and Baptist churches, also nondenominational EV churches in college. I also currently attend Solid Rock Church in Portland, Oregon as well as attend and serve in my ward. I really do enjoy your posts as they mirror feelings and unspoken thoughts originating from my religious background. Most of my closest friends are of some evangelical persuasion, and I enjoy regular discussions with them about faith and God, sometimes calmly and sometimes with unfettered emotion. I ask what denomination you align with because I'm wondering if you apply the criticism of LDS theology and culture, mostly valid criticism from what I've been reading, to your particular flavor of Christianity, what kind of answers do you find? For myself, I see no better option than the LDS Church amongst other churches (although I am also spiritually fed regularly at Solid Rock and Christian radio). As only another face in the Internet but also, I hope, as a Christian brother, I just want to let you know that my faith in the Lord and of my firm foundation in the totality and witness of the Bible is expressed and comes to fruition as a member of the LDS church.

Nothing should mediate between ourselves and our Savior, and I think much of your writings speak against doing so with ritual, works, cultural norms, human leaders, etc. I agree. But theories and belief systems, even supposedly core doctrines such as the Trinity, biblical infalibility, vicarious atonement, creationalism vs. evolution, even such can and often do supercede our relationship with the living God. God did not come as the Christ to teach us theories and dogmas, He came to give us Himself, the true Life. I think when anyone in any faith system substitutes doctrine and dogmas for the living Lord Jesus (again what I think you are writing about) to some degree they will miss connection and relationship. Sorry I'm preaching, I'm not meaning to.

[Calm]

Unfortunately the culture created in the LDS faith does not support what you are saying here. I have read a number of personal histories where a man's "progress" in the church was being stymied because of his reluctance to enter into plural marriage.

According to whom? The only one we need to worry about whether he thinks we are being "stymied" in our personal growth is God.

[Calm]

I think it went to the heart of what you were trying to say.

If so I think you missed my point

The gospel is not a "program" devised to make one have a "spiritual experience".

It is news of a relationship between God and Man that can be aided by man but also hindered by him just as easily.

I am not the one who called it a program. It is no more of a program than growing up in a family with father, mother, siblings, cousins, is.

[Calm]

He came to give us Himself, the true Life.

And I think the essential purpose of our lives is to learn how to live that "true Life" that he has given us, not just to sit by and watch him live it for us.

[volgadon]

Try administering the sacrament with a non-white shirt and let me know how you fair.

For over thirty years, my dad has not worn a white shirt, let alone a tie when administering the sacrament. Of course, that is not all wards and branches.

[Palerider]

Sounds like some Bishops aren't getting with the program...

When I was in AZ. I occasionaly wore a light cream colored shirt with my suit. When I was called into the Bishopric I was rather strongly informed that, (to quote the Stake councelor who was in attendance) "we are a white shirt stake". He didn't need to say more.

[Palerider]

According to whom? The only one we need to worry about whether he thinks we are being "stymied" in our personal growth is God.

The account I'm thinking of was where the stake wanted to call a particular man to be Bishop but they were reluctant to do so because he had not taken a second wife, and was loathe to do so. Hence his "progress" in the church was hindered.

And yes it would take some serious time to go back through all of my reading and find this account if anyone is thinking of requesting a reference, but I believe I have cut others here some slack.

[Palerider]

If so I think you missed my pointI am not the one who called it a program. It is no more of a program than growing up in a family with father, mother, siblings, cousins, is.

Growing up in the church seemed like an endless array of "Hey we've got a new program" for this or that. When I was in the mission field we went through three different sets of discussions, each trying to come up with a new approach or program to bring people into the church. I get tired thinking about it.............

[Palerider]

Hey Palerider, forgive me if the answer to my question is already public knowledge - if I may be so bold as to ask what denomination of mainline Christianity you ascribe to? I ask because I'm a convert to the LDS Church, having grown up going to Methodist and Baptist churches, also nondenominational EV churches in college. I also currently attend Solid Rock Church in Portland, Oregon as well as attend and serve in my ward. I really do enjoy your posts as they mirror feelings and unspoken thoughts originating from my religious background. Most of my closest friends are of some evangelical persuasion, and I enjoy regular discussions with them about faith and God, sometimes calmly and sometimes with unfettered emotion. I ask what denomination you align with because I'm wondering if you apply the criticism of LDS theology and culture, mostly valid criticism from what I've been reading, to your particular flavor of Christianity, what kind of answers do you find? For myself, I see no better option than the LDS Church amongst other churches (although I am also spiritually fed regularly at Solid Rock and Christian radio). As only another face in the Internet but also, I hope, as a Christian brother, I just want to let you know that my faith in the Lord and of my firm foundation in the totality and witness of the Bible is expressed and comes to fruition as a member of the LDS church.

Nothing should mediate between ourselves and our Savior, and I think much of your writings speak against doing so with ritual, works, cultural norms, human leaders, etc. I agree. But theories and belief systems, even supposedly core doctrines such as the Trinity, biblical infalibility, vicarious atonement, creationalism vs. evolution, even such can and often do supercede our relationship with the living God. God did not come as the Christ to teach us theories and dogmas, He came to give us Himself, the true Life. I think when anyone in any faith system substitutes doctrine and dogmas for the living Lord Jesus (again what I think you are writing about) to some degree they will miss connection and relationship. Sorry I'm preaching, I'm not meaning to.

Hi Bubbachen,

I'm sure most have heard this before, to you who have, forgive me. I'll try to abbreviate and let you read between the lines

I was raised Mormon. Seminary, mission, temple marriage, all my sons served missions, all children married in temple, EQ president couple of times, gospel doctrine, couple of different bishoprics, last calling was HP group leader, when I told them I couldn't do it anymore in the face of my church history studies.

I actually miss alot about the church. I think they have a great sense of community that may or may not exist in other christian denominations, but I don't pursue any particular denomination. I think the "Christian church" including the LDS faith as a part of that community is in somewhat of a state of disarray. I study mostly by myself in my own search for truth. Culturally I still hold to many of the guidelines of the LDS faith.

I think the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13 is very indicative of where the Christian church is at this point and find it quite interesting that when the angels desire to go and "restore" the field to it's "original" purity, their request is denied by the Master. All indications to me, are that the Savior will return in glory in an indisputable way (not in a grove) or in the secret chambers. See Matthew 24: 23-27

At that time "Israel" will be gathered and all false doctrine and false teachers will be set straight without controversy or argument.

I think there is sufficient knowledge and information available in the Bible to lead anyone to salvation, who sincerely desires it and is willing to seek, ask, knock...

I think the Lord grants His Spirit to those who seek it on a consistent basis and that the laying on of hands specifically (read carefully here) for "constant companionship" is a myth.