Any Chance Of Lds Schools For The Youth?

[LeSellers]

Because you make untenable and unsupportable statements.

This is simply untrue.

Everything I have ever said about grtf-welfare schools is both tenable and supported.

When Horace Mann imported Prussian schools to USmerica, via Massachusetts, his stated goal was to separate children from their fathers' religions. You can read it in his wife's biography of him: Horace Mann, a Life, by Mary Peabody Mann. She was the daughter of the famous Peabody family of Peabody Coal. Her father advanced Mann's "career" because he knew that grtf-welfare schools would provide him a compliant workforce, incapable of thinking independently, just as the U.S. Commissioner of Education, whose name I do not recall right now William Torrey Harris, promised. Our schools, said he, are "scientifically designed to keep them from thinking anything we do not want them to think."

Your Jihad against public sector education is well known. All I am doing is informing you of the consequences of such statements if broadly applied.

You spelled "stupidly" wrong.

Do you honestly believe that USmericans would allow their own children to be uneducated? If so, you must have very little faith (and rightly so, btw) in the value of grtf-welfare schooling.

The "govmet" isn't forcing you to believe anything.

This is true only if you mean that there is no 1984-type brainwashing stations. (BTW, nice touch with the "govmet" slight. Fine propaganda tool.)

What the schools teach, how they teach it, who is permitted to do so, and the context of that teaching are all explicitly controlled so as to arrive at a given conclusion. The fact that so many people are unable to discern the manipulations is testimony to the effectiveness of the program. Again, I refer you to Mann, John Dewey, and a host of others on the matter.

Please read John Taylor Gatto's opus magnus, An Underground History of American Education. From his prologue:

The shocking possibility that dumb people don’t exist in sufficient numbers to warrant the millions of careers devoted to tending them will seem incredible to you. Yet that is my central proposition: the mass dumbness which justifies official schooling first had to be dreamed of; it isn’t real.

Gatto was three times the New York City teacher of the year, and was awarded the state laurel, as well. He taught for 30 years, and knows the system inside out.

When he retired, he sent a letter to the Wall Street Journal. In it he said,

Government schooling is the most radical adventure in history. It kills the family by monopolizing the best times of childhood and by teaching disrespect for home and parents. The whole blueprint of school procedure is Egyptian, not Greek or Roman. It grows from the theological idea that human value is a scarce thing, represented symbolically by the narrow peak of a pyramid.

That idea passed into American history through the Puritans. It found its "scientific" presentation in the bell curve, along which talent supposedly apportions itself by some Iron Law of Biology. It’s a religious notion, School is its church. I offer rituals to keep heresy at bay. I provide documentation to justify the heavenly pyramid.

Socrates foresaw if teaching became a formal profession, something like this would happen. Professional interest is served by making what is easy to do seem hard; by subordinating the laity to the priesthood. School is too vital a jobs-project, contract giver and protector of the social order to allow itself to be "re-formed." It has political allies to guard its marches, that’s why reforms come and go without changing much. Even reformers can’t imagine school much different.

David learns to read at age four; Rachel, at age nine: In normal development, when both are 13, you can’t tell which one learned first—the five-year spread means nothing at all. But in school I label Rachel "learning disabled" and slow David down a bit, too. For a paycheck, I adjust David to depend on me to tell him when to go and stop. He won’t outgrow that dependency. I identify Rachel as discount merchandise, "special education" fodder. She’ll be locked in her place forever.

In 30 years of teaching kids rich and poor I almost never met a learning disabled child; hardly ever met a gifted and talented one either. Like all school categories, these are sacred myths, created by human imagination. They derive from questionable values we never examine because they preserve the temple of schooling.

That’s the secret behind short-answer tests, bells, uniform time blocks, age grading, standardization, and all the rest of the school religion punishing our nation. There isn’t a right way to become educated; there are as many ways as fingerprints. We don’t need state-certified teachers to make education happen—that probably guarantees it won’t.

How much more evidence is necessary? Good schools don’t need more money or a longer year; they need real free-market choices, variety that speaks to every need and runs risks. We don’t need a national curriculum or national testing either. Both initiatives arise from ignorance of how people learn or deliberate indifference to it. I can’t teach this way any longer. If you hear of a job where I don’t have to hurt kids to make a living, let me know. Come fall I’ll be looking for work.

You can send your children to a taxpayer supported school, a private school, a religious school. You can even home school your children. The state of California even has published guidelines on how to do it, and not violate the law. Teach your children that Fred Flintstone worked in a stone quarry on the back of a dinosaur, if that floats your boat.

Once again, you resort to pure extremist stupidity to belittle a position you do not agree with.

Sure, anyone can send his child to a private school, but he still has to pay for the grtf-welfare school he's not using.

Family-Centered Educated children outscore grtf-welfare student by 10 or more percentile rankings in all standardized tests for college admissions. They are better socialized than their state-incarcerated peers. They are far more adventurous and outgoing than government students.

On average, there is nothing a grtf-welfare school student excels at compared to a Family-Centered Educated student. Well, nothing academic. GRTF-wefare students get pregnant more often, do drugs more often, set fire to their schools more often. They go to jail more often, shoot each other more often, commit rape more often. But I'm sure you'd agree that, in most cases, these are not necessarily good things.

And there is simply no denying that grtf-welfare schools exist for the benefit of the politicians and bureaucrats well before that of the students and their parents. If these needs are even considered. The head of the American Federation of Teachers (the second largest teacher's union) said he'd represent children when they paid union dues. I heard many times in the faculty lounge that school would be a grat place to work if it just weren't for the students.

And they cost too much—'way too much.

Lehi

Edited March 9, 2012 by LeSellers

[Saints Alive]

Thesometimesaint / Lehi: as much as I honestly enjoy your back and forth you do seem to be derailing the thread a little bit and taking unnessisary stabs at each other.

I will now stop imitating the moderators and duck / cover

[LeSellers]

The reason blueadept asked about the Church's possibly starting her own schools is, as I understand it, because grtf-welfare schools are, as arms of the state, becoming ever more impossible to tolerate as Christians and as Saints, just as President Packer warned us some while back. It seems reasonable to hypothesize that we could have LDS schools available for that reason.

My purpose in giving the arguments I have raised is to show that

1. The Church has always opposed government controlling the education of children.
   
2. There is good and ample reason for this opposition.
   
3. Nothing has changed from 1852 when the first USmerican grtf-welfare schools were imposed on Massachusetts—the reason for them was to divorce children from their parents from the very beginning.
   
4. Nothing is likely to change—it hasn't changed (except to get worse) for 160 years.
   

At least as far as I can tell, this is perfectly on topic.

Lehi

Edited March 9, 2012 by LeSellers

[blueadept]

The reason blueadept asked about the Church's possibly starting her own schools is, as I understand it, because grtf-welfare schools are, as arms of the state, becoming ever more impossible to tolerate as Christians and as Saints. It seems reasonable to hypothesize that we could have LDS schools available for that reason.

My purpose in giving the arguments I have raised is to show that

1. The Church has always opposed government controlling the education of children.
   
2. There is good and ample reason for this opposition.
   
3. Nothing has changed from 1852 when the first grtf-welfare schools were imposed on Massachusetts—the reason for them was to divorce children from their parents form the very beginning.
   
4. Nothing is likely to change—it hasn't changed (except to get worse) for 160 years.
   

At least as far as I can tell, this is perfectly on topic.

Lehi

[Deborah]

One grandson does the K through Twelve on-line school. program. He's 15. He really likes it because he can move at his own pace, which is far beyond what the classroom gave him. He also has interaction on-line with other kids. My DIL is taking college courses on-line and also has interactive programs with the professors and others in the course. The internet is changing the way we get educated.

[Deborah]

And btw, I had one daughter who dropped out of high school. She was having so many problems and getting into trouble so I agreed she could do so if she took and passed the GED and got a job. She did both. She was one of the brighter kids in school and her science teacher talked about her fine mind. I think a lot of the brighter kids do have problems in school because they aren't challenged enough. She took the GED without studying and got one of the highest scores. Very smart girl but just couldn't handle the school environment, yet is very charismatic and successful now.

[Hestia]

Lehi and Sometimes, keep politics and parties out of the discussion. You were warned once now take a break from the discussion.

[KevinG]

I believe I've become the lead authority in our parish in regards to correcting misconceptions about LDS doctrine since our previous priest left. The misconceptions were bad enough that I felt that if I was standing on a pitcher's mound in a ballpark, I felt that they were standing in the parking lot. I once had to correct a RCIA teacher who was talking about baptism and the need to use the correct words and form for a valid baptism and he stated that Mormons used the wrong words which is totally bunk as I corrected him and explained to him where the issue really is.

I've been civilly divorced for 1.5 years from my LDS wife and I still feel like I'm a spokesman for the LDS church.....hmmmmm

Resistance is futile - you will be assimilated.

[blueadept]

Resistance is futile - you will be assimilated.

.....Love it!!! I can envision meeting my goal in being a Catholic permanent deacon and still correcting misconceptions about the LDS faith

[KevinG]

.....Love it!!! I can envision meeting my goal in being a Catholic permanent deacon and still correcting misconceptions about the LDS faith

I do appreciate you sticking up for us. I have little tolerence for those in the LDS church who trade in salacious rumors about other religions. Fortunately they are few.

[Jeff K.]

As a lapsed/former Catholic, I also try to clear up mythconceptions regarding the Catholic church among my fellow saints.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Two anecdotes: When my mission president was earlier serving as a 'regional representative' (before the creation of area authorities), he was approaced by a church in the US which wished to divest itself of a small university campus in the east and wondered if the Latter-day Saints would be interested in buying it and maintaining it as a religious institution. He contacted Church headquarters with the proposal and was put into contact with Pres Hinckley. According to what my MP told me, Pres Hinckley's candid response was, roughly, 'For heaven's sake, tell them no. We have enough troubles with BYU as it is; why would we want another one? If we knew how to divest ourselves of BYU, we'd have done it already.'

Later, when I was doing my undergrad at a public university in America, Pres Hinckley visisted our campus and gave a fireside in the concert hall. When he stood up to speak, he said it was good to see a large group of Latter-day Saint young people who were doing what the Church wanted them to do and attending a public institution where they could be a light to the world.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[Avatar4321]

I have a feeling we might end up doing this again. Ive pondered it quite a bit. Maybe the Church itself wont sponsor it but individual stakes will pilot such programs. I dont know

Edited March 13, 2012 by Avatar4321

[Saints Alive]

I have a feeling we might end up doing this again. Ive pondered it quite a bit. Maybe the Church itself wont sponsor it but individual stakes will pilot such programs. I dont know

I doubt SLC would allow individual stakes to sponsor schools. Private individuals might start their own schools but I don't think the church will be involved at any level.

[KevinG]

I doubt SLC would allow individual stakes to sponsor schools. Private individuals might start their own schools but I don't think the church will be involved at any level.

I'll add some support to that thought. I'm involved in a community activity that our Stake allowed to be hosted in our Stake Center when it was being established. The moment we grew to the point that we contemplated asking for dues or charging admission to events we had to find a private space to have the activity. Public/Private initiatives or any activity that requires fees or dues puts the Church at risk with their taxfree status and independence from government. I can't see us taking on private schooling as long as there are public options and we are concentrating on our mission.

[Jac]

I can't see us taking on private schooling as long as there are public options and we are concentrating on our mission.

I think one of the missions of the Church is to "perfect the Saints", even, or especially, the little Saints.

That's a lot harder in a public school setting, and a lot easier when Mom or Dad is in charge of a child's schooling, like a homeschool or private school.

But I agree: there isn't much chance of the Church opening schools until things get impossible at public schools. But Elder Packer said they were going that way, fast. There isn't enough money to do it for one thing. And the members won't support them even if they were available. That's what happened a hundred years ago.

Jacquie

(yes, Lehi's Jacquie)

Now back to lurking

[KevinG]

The Saints can get involved in local school boards and education careers. the most important thing is to actively parent- then no matter where the kids go during the day they know they will be returning and reporting on their behavior in the mission field!

Please post more - your thoughts are worth sharing!

[blueadept]

The Saints can get involved in local school boards and education careers. the most important thing is to actively parent- then no matter where the kids go during the day they know they will be returning and reporting on their behavior in the mission field!

I believe the reason LDS kids rank so well for them knowing their faith as well as they do is due to the parents being involved in the schooling process and showing the love of your faith in the home. Your system is working for you whether the kids are home-schooled, or in private/public schooling. You make the difference.

While I'm involved in the middle school CCD ministry (Sunday school), it's obvious our system is not working with the 3rd to 8th grade level and trying to revamp the program. The biggest issue is the parents not knowing their faith or practicing their faith. Only 20% of my class actually goes to Mass and my one hour on Sunday is all that most of my kids see in regards to their faith. We've tried to re-catechise the parents through the kids and that's not working as well as to have a family catechesis on occasions. The problem is that they don't show up to that either. If you can't tell, I'm jealous of my LDS counterparts.

Please post more - your thoughts are worth sharing!

Welcome Jacquie... You're thoughts and comments are welcomed!

[Saints Alive]

Believe me, there are a lot of lds adults that don't know their religion either.

[blueadept]

But the jealousy part is that LDS kids (and Jewish kids) easily outrank their EV and Catholic counter parts in knowing their faith once they graduate high school.

You have a process that works. Any suggestions?

Edited March 13, 2012 by blueadept

[Saints Alive]

A catholic version of early morning seminary perhaps? I think the catholic church's problem is the vast number of people who are culturally catholic, LDS has them too (aka jack Mormons) but I imagine the percentages are different. The Catholics come home campaigne is probably a good start.

[KevinG]

You have a process that works. Any suggestions?

Convert?

(...ducks and runs for cover...)

[Saints Alive]

Convert?

(...ducks and runs for cover...)

that would be one way to fix the problem

[blueadept]

I think the catholic church's problem is the vast number of people who are culturally catholic, LDS has them too (aka jack Mormons) but I imagine the percentages are different.

Our Hispanic, Asian, and Black communities are on-fire with the faith and it shows in parishes that are predominantly made up of these cultures which each of these offers something special in regards to the church. The issue of 'cultural catholics' who are not involved tends to be parishes that are not culturally diverse. For this group, I would think instituting a family home evening approach would be best but not sure how to introduce that.

[KevinG]

The worldwide LDS welfare system got started as a program in a local Stake. Perhaps just encouraging a program in the local Parish could have a far flung impact you can't imagine from the start?

A Seminary may even be willing to send teachers and materials to instruct local Catholic kids.

Go for it!

Edited March 13, 2012 by KevinG